565 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

M25105 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

Moroever, the Normandy can be said to be part of EDI.
You'd still kill her if you put a bomb in the AI room.

[Skyhawk02]

nicocap24 wrote...

I like this thread, there's a lot of discussion but a minimum amount of insults. How nice.

"I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread on the Bioware Social Network"

Sorry, I had to do it.

[nicocap24]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

I like this thread, there's a lot of discussion but a minimum amount of insults. How nice.

"I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread on the Bioware Social Network"

Sorry, I had to do it.

Pfft. You'd say that about any thread if that got you a discount, you cheap bastard.

[Jackums]

I don't see why I'd have a problem with it considering it was being truthful in what it told us, as is evident by the epilogue.

And in my ending (Control), I replace it, so IDRC. It's non-existent in the end.

[Jadebaby]

nicocap24 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course. He would seek to punish us. The problem is, the game lets him. Shepard just stands there and does nothing.

Well sure, I would agree that Shepard should try to fight back, I didn't know that he didn't in that ending.  Of course fighting the reapers conventionally is futile but Shepard should still try.  Does he just stand there and let the Catalyst kill him?  Because if that's what happens then you're right that's pretty stupid.

Once Starbrat says SO BE IT and the cruible beam hsuts down, Shepard just stands there and get's a sadface as a uniuqe looknig Reaper starts destroying the fleet. Shepard gives up, just seconds after giving one of the best speechs in the game.

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

Talk.. Move.. Walk.. Run. Anything is better than him standing looking like "owz I dumbed it.."

Find a way back down the elevator or get joker to come get him?

[v TricKy v]

nicocap24 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

My only issue is that my option is absent, which makes this forced cooperation with the villain feel uncomfortable to me.

No, your option is not absent (although it was before EC), you want to not only pick your choices but also the consequences.  So your consequence is absent, but not your option.

I do not accept those consequences. Those consequences are artificial, as artificial as not allowing Shepard to dispute the Catalyst in the first place.

Why are they artificial?

Because, as I said. Shepard doesn't do anything. She could contact the fleet. Tell them what's going on. Destroy the Catalyst. At least *try*.
Shepard says she'll die knowing she did everything she could to stop this maniac and then... just stands there. That's artificial.

Also, it completely ignores your EMS. 1000 EMS? You lose! 7000 EMS? You lose! What's the point? (If you say synthesis I will not like you very much).

Don't worry, I hate synthesis. But the use of the EMS is having the crucible in good shape, which allows it not to kill everything it touches. As for the refuse ending, I agree it could've been handled much better (maybe showing you the epic final battle and feeling like you died trying?) but I wouldn't call it artificial because you don't really see Shepard give up. It's just a couple of seconds of him moving his head and then it cuts to Liara's hologram. I'm sure everyone kept fighting. Heck, the war lasted the whole duration of ME3. I'm sure it went on for at least a couple of months. 

That is the problem I have with people saying "OMG you failed and got everyone killed"
It took the reapers hundreds of years to beat the protheans and the fought a war against synthetics before the reapers arrived and got suprised by the citadel trap. I can imagine that we gave them hell with races like the Turians, Krogans, Humans and Asari united. The new woman stargazer looks like a Asari. There is a lot of room for interpretation If you remember that Asari and Krogans can live for over 1000 years without needing cyro technology. A few protheans survived so it possible that the same happend in our cycle.

[nicocap24]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course. He would seek to punish us. The problem is, the game lets him. Shepard just stands there and does nothing.

Well sure, I would agree that Shepard should try to fight back, I didn't know that he didn't in that ending.  Of course fighting the reapers conventionally is futile but Shepard should still try.  Does he just stand there and let the Catalyst kill him?  Because if that's what happens then you're right that's pretty stupid.

Once Starbrat says SO BE IT and the cruible beam hsuts down, Shepard just stands there and get's a sadface as a uniuqe looknig Reaper starts destroying the fleet. Shepard gives up, just seconds after giving one of the best speechs in the game.

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

Talk.. Move.. Walk.. Run. Anything is better than him standing looking like "owz I dumbed it.."

Find a way back down the elevator or get joker to come get him?

As I've said before, the refuse ending could've been handled much better. But just because you see Shepard moving his head for two seconds it doesn't mean he didn't fight back. The war doesn't end right there and then. It already lasted through all ME3, it will last longer.

[Torrible]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

This. He sees sentient lives as nothing more than numbers to crunch. He's probably a flawed AI that lacks complete free will, cursed to forever pursue the end he was created for. 

That's really interesting to think about, clearly his creators were not anticipating him choosing the method he did to save them, and he must have contained a flaw as you said, causeing him to not even realize how flawed his solution was.  I am really impressed by the Extended Cut, because now you can choose destroy, control, synthesis without needing to accept the Catalysts reasoning.  It's clearly the opposite as his reasoning is that he should continue the cycle as illustrated in the refuse ending.

It lacks what EDI and Legion have, a soul. I reiterate the example I used earlier. The robots in 'I, Robot' were intially designed to protect humans. But they see an endless cycle of humans causing harm to themselves so they decided that killing them was the best way to protect them. A being with a soul would see this as horrendous and contradictory but a creature without one, driven by cold logic, sees it as the perfect solution.

I may be stretching it a little (ok, maybe a lot) but I see the "so be it" outburst as the emergence of a soul. It may be due to observing Shepard.

Modifié par Torrible, 30 juin 2012 - 08:16 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Yep ... check my signature - by simple conpulsive logic you could trolling the Catalyst´s assertions...

Otherwise yes I think that Catalyst is simple little liar - his whole conversation is based on self-negate assertions, BioWare said that there will be closure and clarification as they also said there won´t be any new ending added.

Well, something or somewhere is mistake because we didn´t recieved closure or clarification (which in fact would ruin every theory) and also they add new ending (which even create more questions and add one new plothole that whole catalyst convo is just a try to delude Shepard)

[nicocap24]

Torrible wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

This. He sees sentient lives as nothing more than numbers to crunch. He's probably a flawed AI that lacks complete free will, cursed to forever pursue the end he was created for. 

That's really interesting to think about, clearly his creators were not anticipating him choosing the method he did to save them, and he must have contained a flaw as you said, causeing him to not even realize how flawed his solution was.  I am really impressed by the Extended Cut, because now you can choose destroy, control, synthesis without needing to accept the Catalysts reasoning.  It's clearly the opposite as his reasoning is that he should continue the cycle as illustrated in the refuse ending.

It lacks what EDI and Legion have, a soul. I reiterate the example I used earlier. The robots in 'I, Robot' were intially designed to protect humans. But they see an endless cycle of humans causing harm to themselves so they decided that killing them was the best way to protect them. A being with a soul would see this as horrendous and contradictory but a creature without one, driven by cold logic, sees it as the perfect solution.

I love this, there is so much room for discussion. I agree with you, but some people would argue that there is no such thing as souls and that intelligence only is what makes a person, making the Catalyst equal to Legion and EDI.

[Ridwan]

The Angry One wrote...

M25105 wrote...

maxulic wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

Moroever, the Normandy can be said to be part of EDI.
You'd still kill her if you put a bomb in the AI room.

The more you think about the Catalyst and all that dumb stuff, the sillier it becomes. Was it really that hard to convert your EMS score to see how effectively you could kick Reaper ass?

Instead we got Bioware telling us, begging, hinting at us, to pick Synthesis so we can all go and have gay sex with robots that 5 minutes ago just killed our loved ones. It's ****ing stupid.

[xsdob]

Doesn't really bother me seeing as how I either destroy him, delete him and replace his broken mind with shepards, or just have the next cycle fight the reapers without the crucible (Until the stargazer scene specifically tells me they used the crucible, I will believe they didn't. Twitter about the endings is not cannon to me.)

[The Angry One]

The Catalyst isn't driven by logic though, is it? It's making false assumptions.
It assumes conflict will lead to extinction, but it never has. It all but admits this fact.

And like it or not, "SO BE IT!" demonstrates anger and contempt. It's reversion to it's child voice is an attempt at condecension after it calms down.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Maias227 wrote...

Not at all.

[Fresnor]

Let's pose a similar situation to this ending. You're fighting in WW2 and break into Hitler's bunker early on in the war to finally meet him. He offers you 3 buttons that could end the war, which do you choose?
B-Hitler vanishes and is replaced by you as the leader of the **** army
G-Everyone is all of a sudden now the same religion and stops fighting to start laughing and playing
R-All the ****s die as well as the austrians and the belgians

The real Shepard would choose none of those and shoot him and go back to fighting the war with even more fervor. Yes, starchild is really space-Hitler

[Flidget]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Yeah, but the price of taking a stand and telling that stupid kid, that we make our own fate = failure. We all die.

That's what makes it a tough decision, if you got this far in Mass Effect you know it's partially about making tough decisions where there is no "Perfect" choice, you always have to make compromises.

That's not entirely true - there's also always been cases where if you did the work you could save the colony on Feros, bring everyone back alive from the Suicide Mission or make peace between the Geth and the Quarians.  Mass Effect has also always had an aspect of "take the third option" to it.

I do actually really like the revised conversation with the Catalyst, I think its an interesting antagonist now, but the rather besides-the-point nature of the War Assets and EMS still grates on me.

Modifié par Flidget, 30 juin 2012 - 08:19 .

[Ridwan]

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

[quote]M25105 wrote...

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

[quote]M25105 wrote...

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

[quote]M25105 wrote...

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

[quote]M25105 wrote...

[quote]maxulic wrote...

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?
[/quote]

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

[/quote]

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.
[/quote]

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

[/quote]

But then the Geth would die... what's the point of destroying the Citadel and not just shooting the tube?
[/quote]

I think the only way to make any sense of that, would be to pull off the Crucible and then destroy the Citadel, after Shepard informed Hackett what was up.

[/quote]

Then the tube doesn't even matter anymore, because the energy of the Crucible is not released and the reapers are not destroyed. So maxulic's point still stands.
[/quote]

But wouldn't you destroy the stupid space kid, if you took out the Citadel?

[/quote]

Well that depends on whether maxulic is right or not about the Catalyst. If the Catalyst depends on the Citadel to exist, then yes, you would destroy him. But it would make sense if he was also uploaded in the reapers themselves. Maybe that's how he controls them after all.
[/quote]

Let's say the dumb kid gets wasted along with the Citadel, Crucible docked off so no red energy beam (lol). What would happen to the Reapers then? They keep going with reaping everyone? They get switched off? They fly away and never bother anyone?

[/quote]

I think they would develop objectives of their own. Apparently in the Leviathan DLC there's gonna be a rogue reaper. I think that reaper was dormant and was reactivated, and then went wrong. Maybe when it was deactivated in the first place it lost the influence of the Catalyst (look at how much speculation!) and that's why it went rogue when it woke up. The same could happen with the rest of the reapers if the catalyst is destroyed.
[/quote]

You think anyone would just let them fly around, if the Reapers went "Oh, we're sorry. We were under orders."? No way, we would try to kill every last one of them. Would they defend themselves or accept that what they did (regardless if they were controlled by the spoiled, ghost brat (I'm running out of insulting names for that ****** kid) or not) and just let us pop 'em off?

[nicocap24]

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst isn't driven by logic though, is it? 

He's driven by flawed logic. His creators probably messed up something when they made him. 

[Captiosus77]

Skyhawk02 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Yeah, but the price of taking a stand and telling that stupid kid, that we make our own fate = failure. We all die.

That's what makes it a tough decision, if you got this far in Mass Effect you know it's partially about making tough decisions where there is no "Perfect" choice, you always have to make compromises.

Destroy, Synthesis, AND Control are all "gray" choices which don't neatly fit into any of the morality paradigms. If a player behind a Paragon Shep feels as though they can't pick Destroy because of the implied genocide, can't pick Synthesis because of the implied forced homogenization, and can't pick Control because of the implied slavery, how, then, could a Paragon Shep choose rejection knowing that means mass genocide?

Therein lies the problem. Because every choice is gray and has elements unappealing to both sides of the morality scales, at the very end, the choices expose that the entire concept of morality (not to mention the EMS/War Assets) is a complete and utter sham.

Modifié par Captiosus77, 30 juin 2012 - 08:20 .

[Skyhawk02]

nicocap24 wrote...

Skyhawk02 wrote...

nicocap24 wrote...

I like this thread, there's a lot of discussion but a minimum amount of insults. How nice.

"I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread on the Bioware Social Network"

Sorry, I had to do it.

Pfft. You'd say that about any thread if that got you a discount, you cheap bastard.

Haha, guilty as charged.

[Silasqtx]

The Angry One wrote...
The Catalyst hides everything it is and everything it does behind a layer of deceit. It paints itself as something completely foreign to what it really is - an innocent child. This on top of it's sugar-coating of it's incredible crimes.

So I have to know, out of curiosity. Does this not bother you? Does it not leave a bad taste in your mouth knowing that when this being is challenged, it reverts to it's "true" voice? That it maintains a facade for as long as Shepard plays nice with it?

Absolutely not, I find it interesting. In my mind the starchild always wanted to trick Shepard in doing something that will NOT destroy the Reapers (hence he depicts Destroy as the worst possible outcome). Why he's doing that? As the Geth acted against the creators to survive, Reapers try to give Shepard two out of three choices that will preserve them; to survive.

[Eterna]

The Angry One wrote...


I take issue with punishing those of us who reject it's manipulations.

Why? Shepard knew full well what would happen if he.she didn't use the crucible: Everyone dies.

You choose no just to make a cheesy speech about your morals and everyone in the galaxy pays the price for your pride. Sounds fair to me.

[nicocap24]

[quote]M25105 wrote...

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

[quote]M25105 wrote...

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

[quote]M25105 wrote...

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

[quote]M25105 wrote...

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

[quote]M25105 wrote...

[quote]maxulic wrote...

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

[quote]nicocap24 wrote...

What do you want him to do? Shoot the Reaper with his carnifex?
[/quote]

"Shepard to Hackett. The Crucible's a no-go. But the controller of the Reapers is here. Have your targetting VIs lock on my position and fire. Destroy the Presidium tower. It's been an honour, sir. Shepard out."

[/quote]

Yeah right. Provided The Catalyst physically sits in the Citadel which is not likely the case. Just for reminder: "The Citadel is part of me", not the contrary.

Which means that destroying the Citadel would do little to nothing to help.
[/quote]

You know, that tube right. That's part of the citadel. I wonder what happens to that tube when you destroy the citadel. Does it magically shield itself?

[/quote]

But then the Geth would die... what's the point of destroying the Citadel and not just shooting the tube?
[/quote]

I think the only way to make any sense of that, would be to pull off the Crucible and then destroy the Citadel, after Shepard informed Hackett what was up.

[/quote]

Then the tube doesn't even matter anymore, because the energy of the Crucible is not released and the reapers are not destroyed. So maxulic's point still stands.
[/quote]

But wouldn't you destroy the stupid space kid, if you took out the Citadel?

[/quote]

Well that depends on whether maxulic is right or not about the Catalyst. If the Catalyst depends on the Citadel to exist, then yes, you would destroy him. But it would make sense if he was also uploaded in the reapers themselves. Maybe that's how he controls them after all.
[/quote]

Let's say the dumb kid gets wasted along with the Citadel, Crucible docked off so no red energy beam (lol). What would happen to the Reapers then? They keep going with reaping everyone? They get switched off? They fly away and never bother anyone?

[/quote]

I think they would develop objectives of their own. Apparently in the Leviathan DLC there's gonna be a rogue reaper. I think that reaper was dormant and was reactivated, and then went wrong. Maybe when it was deactivated in the first place it lost the influence of the Catalyst (look at how much speculation!) and that's why it went rogue when it woke up. The same could happen with the rest of the reapers if the catalyst is destroyed.
[/quote]

You think anyone would just let them fly around, if the Reapers went "Oh, we're sorry. We were under orders."? No way, we would try to kill every last one of them. Would they defend themselves or accept that what they did (regardless if they were controlled by the spoiled, ghost brat (I'm running out of insulting names for that ****** kid) or not) and just let us pop 'em off?

[/quote]

Oh everyone would fight back, that's for sure. But they would lose.

[Ridwan]

nicocap24 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The Catalyst isn't driven by logic though, is it? 

He's driven by flawed logic. His creators probably messed up something when they made him. 

"Hey Bob, I think you forgot to add this piece here."
"What? What piece? It's already packed and shipped. Show me."
"There ya go, it says common sense"
"Oh ****! Well hopefully no one will notice."

[xsdob]

Fresnor wrote...

Let's pose a similar situation to this ending. You're fighting in WW2 and break into Hitler's bunker early on in the war to finally meet him. He offers you 3 buttons that could end the war, which do you choose?
B-Hitler vanishes and is replaced by you as the leader of the **** army
G-Everyone is all of a sudden now the same religion and stops fighting to start laughing and playing
R-All the ****s die as well as the austrians and the belgians

The real Shepard would choose none of those and shoot him and go back to fighting the war with even more fervor. Yes, starchild is really space-Hitler

And so he can, except bullets don't tend to hurt non-corporeal entities, or can I shoot and kill avina and harbinger's projection by shooting them as well?