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DA3 and storydriven RPGs


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#1
FedericoV

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DA:O was a spiritual successor to BG. BG is considered to be one of the best translation of D&D in the videogames media. In that sense, the gameplay, the setting and the storytelling of DA:O played like an upgraded version of that format. The game was a success on a critical and commercial level (I do not love it, but it's a damn good game and one of Bioware's finest however you put it).

Comes DA2 and the dev team try to change the formula. Cinematic storytelling and an actiony combat that relied less on party-based mechanics, stats and loot changed the formula radically for many players. The game positioned somewhere in between classic RPGs based on D&D and contemporary aRPGs like ME, failing in many ways to please both parts of the potential fans. We will never agree if DA2 has been a failure or not, but for sure is less of a success than DA:O.

I've read many interesting topics about what Bioware should do with the franchise. Bioware has already a plan in motion and for sure they do not read the forums to search for pearl of wisdom. It's their work afterall and we are just players. But that fact do not stop our discussions fortunately.

Someone suggests to return to the DA:O's model (and I would like that direction). Some would just like a more polished and refined version of DA2 and that's probably the direction of the dev team too (I respect them and I could be wrong off course, but imho it won't be a successfull direction for the series). Others, considering that Bioware wants to continue in the "cinematic storytelling" direction, suggests to leave the RPG/D&D model for good and turn the series in to an action/adventure game with branching dialogues and branching storylines. The third position makes a lot of sense but in my opinion is a little bit too radical.

PnP RPGs have gone through a similar transition during the 90's when storydriven games begun to rival with D&D in terms of popularity and appeal. Maybe it's not necessary to throw out the baby with the bath water, the baby being the RPG element off course. There are a lot of lessions that could be learned from storydriven pnp rpgs (World of Darkness games, Legend of the 5 Rings, Ars Magica, Amber, Nobilis, etc.) in term of design that could improve DA3 as an RPG in a progressive way. I'll try to list some of them:

- Combat should not be the only focus of the gameplay and the only way to interact with the world in a significant way.
- The "charachter sheet" should reflect that with a lot of skills and perks that apply outside combat (diplomacy, sneaking, survival, knowledge, etc.).
- The class system should be ditched in favour of a "faction" system.
- The level system should be ditched in favour of a skill upgrades system.
- Each upgrade to skills/stats/attributes/whatever should have a dramatic effect in terms of gameplay. No minute and linear upgrades (made pointless by level scaling).
- The fat-loot system should be ditched in favour of a system with very few but very powerfull items.
- A lot less encounters but more significative and dramatic ones.
- The party should not be based on the distinction of "roles" during combat (the holy trinity of rogue/fighter/mage). The party should be a group of realistic individuals with different agendas united by necessity and a common goal.
- The party based combat should be entirely discarded in favour of a system like the ME one (PC in charge with support from companions).
- The storyline should not be linear and the choices you make should really matter and affect your experience in a visible way.
- Less focus on exploration/adventuring. More focus on politics and inter-personal interactions.
- Less customization and more charachterization.

I could continue the list but those are the most important "progressive" elements that storydriven RPGs brought to the table in PnP games. You could like the idea or not but in my opinion those changes would improve DA3 if the game is going to be another storydriven game with a cinematic feel. The actual gameplay is at odds with the storydriven, cinematic and more intimate/dramatic direction of the series. D&Desque gameplay is great for high fantasy epic stories. But it's a very poor tool to tell stories like DA2. I don't know if Thedas is the right setting to go in that direction since it was created as a classic rpg setting and probably it would need a lot of changes, fixes and retcon to work. But I guess that I could live with those changes if the end result is a good gaming experience.

Sorry for the wall of text and for my poor english :).

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 juin 2012 - 01:48 .


#2
bEVEsthda

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I like, FedericoV.

I'm not convinced it has to be exactly like that, or should. But I like.

#3
FedericoV

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bEVEsthda wrote...

I like, FedericoV.

I'm not convinced it has to be exactly like that, or should. But I like.


Thanks bEve! You know, it was an effort to write that wall of text with my derelict english :).

I know, it ain't to be like that exactly. I'm just trying to point out what the pnp designers of the 90s (long live to Mark Rein-Hagen) have made to solve some of the same issues that seems to affect DA2 too. I mean, at a certain point it was clear that D&D wasn't the best tool to tell certain kind of stories and that the gaming system need a radical change to broaden the possibilities of RPGs. At least they could try some of those.

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 juin 2012 - 01:50 .


#4
AkiKishi

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I've played a lot of different systems. The only thing that the good ones have in common is that they compliment the game they are in. This is true of any feature and where DA2 got it all wrong with different features pulling in different directions.

For example DA2 is supposed to appeal to the mainstream. Then they put in the CCC's ,without which combat is a drag because of overinflated health bars.

#5
MichaelStuart

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FedericoV wrote...

- Combat should not be the only focus of the gameplay and the only way to interact with the world in a significant way.
- The "charachter sheet" should reflect that with a lot of skills and perks that apply outside combat (diplomacy, sneaking, survival, knowledge, etc.).
- The class system should be ditched in favour of a "faction" system.
- The level system should be ditched in favour of a skill upgrades system.
- Each upgrade to skills/stats/attributes/whatever should have a dramatic effect in terms of gameplay. No minute and linear upgrades (made pointless by level scaling).
- The fat-loot system should be ditched in favour of a system with very few but very powerfull items.
- A lot less encounters but more significative and dramatic ones.
- The party should not be based on the distinction of "roles" during combat (the holy trinity of rogue/fighter/mage). The party should be a group of realistic individuals with different agendas united by necessity and a common goal.
- The party based combat should be entirely discarded in favour of a system like the ME one (PC in charge with support from companions).
- The storyline should not be linear and the choices you make should really matter and affect your experience in a visible way.


Agree, but would rather they get rid of skills/stats/attributes altogether.

#6
FedericoV

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BobSmith101 wrote...

I've played a lot of different systems. The only thing that the good ones have in common is that they compliment the game they are in. This is true of any feature and where DA2 got it all wrong with different features pulling in different directions.


I agree, that's why I'm trying to point out what are the features that could compliment a DA game, if they continue down the road taken by DA2. If DA2 was less about thugs exploding in the roads and more about diplomacy, politics and mistery, the game would have been a lot better in my view.

#7
FedericoV

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MichaelStuart wrote...

Agree, but would rather they get rid of skills/stats/attributes altogether.


It depends. For sure, it's pointless to have 6 attributes/stats/whatever when they are all just sub-sections of the "DAMAGE LULZ" effect. Just call it "damage" and be done with it :D. What I mean is that the presence of an attribute should be justified by the gameplay. If I raise an attribute, I should see a direct effect on the gameplay. And more importantly it's pointless to have six attributes that are just a break-up of the damage.

Talents are cool: they just need less of them with more "dramatic" progression and they should even have use outside of combat. And you should never be forced to take "odd" talents to take the really cool ones.

#8
Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*

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@FedericoV

Very very good points you make in your post.

Can relate to most of them except exploration is something that is important for me. This has to do with freedom of movement and give the world I explore a more open and lived in feel.

The fighting system is important but the storytelling has to be the prime subject of an RPG imho. And yes please, no more exploding bodies.....

#9
AkiKishi

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If you took away skills/stats and attributes you would have an arcade game. In an arcade game you can cheat code to the end boss and still win as long as your gaming skills are upto the task.
Stats etc. level the playing field, although much less so in scaled game.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 30 juin 2012 - 02:15 .


#10
Androme

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Agree mostly

#11
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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tl;dr version: Give me the Storytelling System or give me death!

:P

It's a well written post however. All your points I wholly agree with, except the party control one. I think BioWare ought to take cues from Wasteland in this case and have party members that have individual quirks that help give them a bit of autonomy. Aside from that, spot on.

#12
AngryFrozenWater

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FedericoV wrote...

- The class system should be ditched in favour of a "faction" system.
- The level system should be ditched in favour of a skill upgrades system.
- The fat-loot system should be ditched in favour of a system with very few but very powerfull items.
- A lot less encounters but more significative and dramatic ones.
- The party based combat should be entirely discarded in favour of a system like the ME one (PC in charge with support from companions).
- Less focus on exploration/adventuring. More focus on politics and inter-personal interactions.
- Less customization and more charachterization.

I have filtered out the ones that I think should be left in the game. I would go one step further. They should get a lot more attention and should be improved, instead of downplayed or removed from the game. If these were left out then there would be no reason to buy the game. I do not mind hack and slash and adventures, but this is a genre that BW already butchers enough because it is cheaper and faster to produce. No thanks.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 juin 2012 - 02:29 .


#13
FedericoV

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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@FedericoV

Very very good points you make in your post.

Can relate to most of them except exploration is something that is important for me. This has to do with freedom of movement and give the world I explore a more open and lived in feel.

The fighting system is important but the storytelling has to be the prime subject of an RPG imho. And yes please, no more exploding bodies.....


First of all, thanks for the kind words. And then sorry, I need to clarify: what I mean with exploration was classic D&Desque "dungeoun crawling", ie killing critters for fat-loot. I'm all for more open and lively settings. It's cool to explore old ruins in search of an ancient mistery, but why should I have to fight my way against the same dozens of undead to learn his secrets with the same old confrontation with the end level boss? 

There is a section in ME3 where Sheppard fall in an old Krogan's ruin in Tuchanka. There is no light, if not for the one in your rifle and you discover some misteries about the Krogans. There is no fight, just suspense. It's a very cool and atmosferic passage. Just to make an expample.

#14
Kaiser Arian XVII

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When single player D&D is almost dead, our only hope is DA3 that may have the good aspects of DA:O and those attributes Federico said.

Using the systems of KOTOR I,II and NWN 2 also helps to have a great game.

#15
FedericoV

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CrustyBot wrote...

tl;dr version: Give me the Storytelling System or give me death!

:P


:D LOL :D

Just to clarify: I love D&D. I still play it from time to time and I have still good time with it. BG is my favourite game series of all time. I'm just saying that if Bioware is not interested in that legacy anymore, it's pointless to keep asking for features like isometric view that do not add anything to a cinematic experience, while the storytelling system offers a lot of suggestion that in my opinion could improve the series in the right direction.

I mean, with all his bugs, messy combat and half of the buget, VtM:Bloodlines has done what Bioware tried with DA2 a lot better (in terms of being a storydriven aRPG with a cinematic feel).

It's a well written post however. All your points I wholly agree with, except the party control one. I think BioWare ought to take cues from Wasteland in this case and have party members that have individual quirks that help give them a bit of autonomy. Aside from that, spot on.


Thanks. I just think that ME combat could be adequate and easier to implement (I agree about the individual quirks part but it could result in a messy experience in a RT game).

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 juin 2012 - 02:45 .


#16
Jerrybnsn

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FedericoV wrote...

 BG is my favourite game series of all time. I'm just saying that if Bioware is not interested in that legacy anymore, it's pointless to keep aking for those kind of features like isometric view, while the storytelling system offers a lot of suggestion that in my opinion could improve the series.


I think this is what a lot of us are afraid of, but we may just have to accept it and move on.  Such a shame.  Origins had such a great premise too.

#17
AkiKishi

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Jerrybnsn wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

 BG is my favourite game series of all time. I'm just saying that if Bioware is not interested in that legacy anymore, it's pointless to keep aking for those kind of features like isometric view, while the storytelling system offers a lot of suggestion that in my opinion could improve the series.


I think this is what a lot of us are afraid of, but we may just have to accept it and move on.  Such a shame.  Origins had such a great premise too.


Bioware trying to half heartedly keep some of those features is what causes some of the problems. If they want a clean break, then they should like ME2 did from ME.

#18
Wulfram

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FedericoV wrote...

- Combat should not be the only focus of the gameplay and the only way to interact with the world in a significant way.
- The "charachter sheet" should reflect that with a lot of skills and perks that apply outside combat (diplomacy, sneaking, survival, knowledge, etc.).


It's very hard to do non-combat as satisfying gameplay, particularly in a computer based system with no live DM.  Because they really need the ability for the player to improvise.

You can do good stealth gameplay, but not in a party based game, and only really if the game is designed primarily to cater to it.

- The class system should be ditched in favour of a "faction" system.


Not sure what this means

- The level system should be ditched in favour of a skill upgrades system.


Don't know exactly what "skill upgrades system" means.  But most non-level systems are not at all balanced.

- Each upgrade to skills/stats/attributes/whatever should have a dramatic effect in terms of gameplay. No minute and linear upgrades (made pointless by level scaling).
- The fat-loot system should be ditched in favour of a system with very few but very powerfull items.
- A lot less encounters but more significative and dramatic ones.


I agree.  Well, I'm not sure about "dramatic", but certainly real and visible.  And scrapping the stat inflation treadmill made pointless by level scaling would be good.

- The party should not be based on the distinction of "roles" during combat (the holy trinity of rogue/fighter/mage). The party should be a group of realistic individuals with different agendas united by necessity and a common goal.


The first part I disagree with, the second seems uncontroversial.

- The party based combat should be entirely discarded in favour of a system like the ME one (PC in charge with support from companions).


I strongly disagree.  party based combat is a defining feature of Dragon Age.  Scrapping it means it's not Dragon Age.

And relegating squadmates to basically spectators/power bots is bad too.

- The storyline should not be linear and the choices you make should really matter and affect your experience in a visible way.


I agree, but non-linearity is expensive to implement and can result in a very short game.  The key is to get non-linearity in the right places.

- Less focus on exploration/adventuring. More focus on politics and inter-personal interactions.


I agree with that.

- Less customization and more charachterization.


I don't know what this means.  I'd consider customization extremely important to characterisation, so I guess we are using these words in different ways.

#19
wsandista

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I agree with most of your post, excpet for the removal of full-party control or levels, which I don't want to go. I'm also on the fence about removing classes. It works excellently in games like TES and Fallout(1 and 2, I hated 3), but I don't know about a DA game removing them.

Also I would like to add that there should be much less emphasis on cinematics for storytelling, the gameplay should be the main and most important source of the story.

Modifié par wsandista, 30 juin 2012 - 03:04 .


#20
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FedericoV wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

@FedericoV

Very very good points you make in your post.

Can relate to most of them except exploration is something that is important for me. This has to do with freedom of movement and give the world I explore a more open and lived in feel.

The fighting system is important but the storytelling has to be the prime subject of an RPG imho. And yes please, no more exploding bodies.....


First of all, thanks for the kind words. And then sorry, I need to clarify: what I mean with exploration was classic D&Desque "dungeoun crawling", ie killing critters for fat-loot. I'm all for more open and lively settings. It's cool to explore old ruins in search of an ancient mistery, but why should I have to fight my way against the same dozens of undead to learn his secrets with the same old confrontation with the end level boss? 

There is a section in ME3 where Sheppard fall in an old Krogan's ruin in Tuchanka. There is no light, if not for the one in your rifle and you discover some misteries about the Krogans. There is no fight, just suspense. It's a very cool and atmosferic passage. Just to make an expample.


Sorry haven't played ME but can picture by your example what you mean. This kind of thing would be great. Mowing through waves of enemies in an RPG in every section of the game gets tedious and boring pretty soon for me.

Diversity is something that used to be more implemented in RPG. The overall trend is that the games start to look more and more the same from start to finish with not much other things going on then running from fight to fight.

#21
FedericoV

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AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I have filtered out the ones that I think should be left in the game. I would go one step further. They should get a lot more attention and should be improved, instead of downplayed or removed from the game. If these were left out then there would be no reason to buy the game. I do not mind hack and slash and adventures, but this is a genre that BW already butchers enough because it is cheaper and faster to produce. No thanks.


Agreed! Moreover, if some player wants H&S there are a lot of better games than DA2 that offers exactly that like Diablo3. Since they focus so much on the writing and the story, the overall gaming experience should compliment that.

#22
AkiKishi

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If you want an action based combat system Dragons Dogma is where it's at. Nothing better on the market at the moment with regards to combat.

#23
sickpixie

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I'm always perplexed when I see someone talk about DA:O as if it wasn't full of cinematic storytelling. It's as if I played a fantasy Knights of the Old Republic with gameplay elements taken from MMOs and others played something else. Is it a case of ignoring features you don't like because it has some features in common with your Platonic Form of RPGs?

#24
FedericoV

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Imperial Sentinel Arian wrote...

When single player D&D is almost dead, our only hope is DA3 that may have the good aspects of DA:O and those attributes Federico said.

Using the systems of KOTOR I,II and NWN 2 also helps to have a great game.


DA:O allready used a lot of the lessons learned in KOTOR I in my view and it could have used even more making the game even better. If they could have keeped expanding on that direction it would have been perfect for me. Unfortunately, that's not what Bioware's wants. So we have to adpat or give a pass: fortunately with KS and the BG Remake there are more companies that are trying to cather to our tastes.

#25
wsandista

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BobSmith101 wrote...

If you want an action based combat system Dragons Dogma is where it's at. Nothing better on the market at the moment with regards to combat.


Is DD worth getting? I have some spare cash and am thinking about re-buying DE:HR and Dawnguard or DD.