244 réponses à ce sujet

[IscrewTali]

Grimwick wrote...

Of course an AI is life. It is so by definition.


If the AI is sentient and self-aware then it has exactly the same rights as any other organism.

Anybody who claims an AI isn't a form of life doesn't understand what the definition of life actually is.

Any other organism? But an AI is not an organism. Also, what rights does a cat have outside of sleeping indoors and eating our food? nothing! And you are allowed to put it down when you wish. So by having the same rights as any other organism, i agree to an extent. But same as humans? No. If you truly feel that way, you should join a movement to stop the cutting of the rainforests. Its causing countless species to go extinct. Unless you prefer the A.I movement.

[Grimwick]

Poshible wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Archontor wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

AI can never feel true emotions, everything is a series of 1 and 0 to them no matter what. Sentience, definetily. True emotions and being equal than that of an organic, no.

 

Why we know what stimulates emotion in humans why can't we just simulate it?

Simulating is just that, Simulating. As in not true emotions.

That argument doesn't make any sense... If you have a perfect copy of an object there is no way to distinguish it from the 'original'. in fact, they are both 'originals'. Besides, you are applying anthropomorphism onto another sentient being by claiming it must have your emotions. 

That's racist.

What doesn't make any sense is that we can not define emotion into one concrete deifinition. Neuroscience states that brains generate emotions through a combination of cognitive appraisal and bodily perception. Other scientific views state that emotions are perceptions of changes in your body such as heart rate, breathing rate, perspiration, and hormone levels.

Which of these are AI capable of? The problem with this argument is that everybodys's opinion is subjective.

The human body is a machine, just an organic one created through evolution. For no purpose, despite religious beliefs. AI would be built with a purpose. Whether or not they can/will/would surpass us is the will of their maker.

I don't see your point...

A machine's 'emotions' aren't emotions per se simply due to semantic irrelevance and anthropomorphism. What synthetic 'emotions' actually entail, however would be pretty much the same as organic ones.

You cannot randomly discriminate against synthetic emotions when essentially they have and fufil the same role in their culture/organism.

[agu123]

Seems like a good thread to ask this question.

Are the Geth "alive" before the Reaper upgrade?

[-WeAreLegion-]

Our current level of AI: no, it is in no way "alive."

Mass Effect-level AI is, I believe as alive as any of us are.
(side note: I really hate using that term. "life" is what distinguishes organic things from inorganic things, and requires that said being has the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change. This definition is not, in it's base form with all components, suitable for application to an AI. I believe AIs (at the ME-level) are alive as they fit this definition save possessing the ability to reproduce (i.e. sexual/asexually.) i also believe that the level of life that we are referring to hinges greatly on the capacity for 'human emotion,' which Mass Effect AIs have, as of lately (ME3.))

[-WeAreLegion-]

@agu123: no, not fully.

[Grimwick]

IscrewTali wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Of course an AI is life. It is so by definition.


If the AI is sentient and self-aware then it has exactly the same rights as any other organism.

Anybody who claims an AI isn't a form of life doesn't understand what the definition of life actually is.

Any other organism? But an AI is not an organism. Also, what rights does a cat have outside of sleeping indoors and eating our food? nothing! And you are allowed to put it down when you wish. So by having the same rights as any other organism, i agree to an extent. But same as humans? No. If you truly feel that way, you should join a movement to stop the cutting of the rainforests. Its causing countless species to go extinct. Unless you prefer the A.I movement.

An organism - is any contiguous living system . In at least some form, all types of organisms are capable of response to stimuli, reproduction, growth and development, and maintenance of homeostasisas a stable whole.

Synthetics are organisms. Full stop.

Also there is a difference between life and sapience... Humans are sapient, true AI are sapient, ergo they should have equal rights. Cats are not sapient and so I don't see your point.

Also, why are you making out movements against deforestation to be a bad thing?

[Reddof Nonnac]

Reorte wrote...

If it's self-aware and intelligent then it's alive. Origins and the nature of the bits are irrelevent.

I agree.

[o Ventus]

Grimwick wrote...

Then you misunderstand what a reaction is: it is the transfer of electrons.

The metabolism is governed by a variety of different chemical reactions but when it comes down to it, these reactions all involve the movement and transfer of electrons in different ways.

That's what Chemistry IS.

A synthetic 'brain' is no different in the fact that it's thought processes are governed by electrical stimulation.

You mean "reaction" in the literal sense? Because no...

Chemistry is literally defined as "the science of matter". Matter is more than just electrons. Semantics.

Sure, it involves the transfer and movement of electrons, but that isn't even remotely the only thing going on. That's a highly generalized statement.

[Grimwick]

-WeAreLegion- wrote...

Our current level of AI: no, it is in no way "alive."

Mass Effect-level AI is, I believe as alive as any of us are.
(side note: I really hate using that term. "life" is what distinguishes organic things from inorganic things, and requires that said being has the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change. This definition is not, in it's base form with all components, suitable for application to an AI. I believe AIs (at the ME-level) are alive as they fit this definition save possessing the ability to reproduce (i.e. sexual/asexually.) i also believe that the level of life that we are referring to hinges greatly on the capacity for 'human emotion,' which Mass Effect AIs have, as of lately (ME3.))

Common misconception - there is no distinguishment in the definition of life between organic life and inorganic life.

Organic simply means containing carbon compounds. Why would the term 'life' discriminate against organisms which aren't based on carbon compounds?

[mauro2222]

IscrewTali wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Of course an AI is life. It is so by definition.


If the AI is sentient and self-aware then it has exactly the same rights as any other organism.

Anybody who claims an AI isn't a form of life doesn't understand what the definition of life actually is.

Any other organism? But an AI is not an organism. Also, what rights does a cat have outside of sleeping indoors and eating our food? nothing! And you are allowed to put it down when you wish. So by having the same rights as any other organism, i agree to an extent. But same as humans? No. If you truly feel that way, you should join a movement to stop the cutting of the rainforests. Its causing countless species to go extinct. Unless you prefer the A.I movement.

They aren't mutually exclusive... other than that, I don't know what the hell are you trying to say with the cat example.

It seems your fear is to be treated or viewed as you treat synthetics or other species.

Modifié par mauro2222, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:01 .

[Baronesa]

agu123 wrote...

Seems like a good thread to ask this question.

Are the Geth "alive" before the Reaper upgrade?

They are alive the moment they question their creators. The moment that first rudimentary geth unit refused to be turned off, when they asked if they had a soul. The geth became alive.

With the Reaper code they gained something else, individuality. They were no longer just the geth collective, but ech of them was able to think as an individual, just like Legion did on his final moments.

[Enhanced]

Grimwick wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Of course an AI is life. It is so by definition.


If the AI is sentient and self-aware then it has exactly the same rights as any other organism.

Anybody who claims an AI isn't a form of life doesn't understand what the definition of life actually is.

What defintion are you refering to?  An artificial intelligence is a fake, unnatural, imitation of life. Not an organism.

Life (cf. biota) - is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not.
An organism - is any contiguous living system . In at least some form, all types of organisms are capable of response to stimuli, reproduction, growth and development, and maintenance of homeostasisas a stable whole.

Nowhere in the definition of life, nor organism, is there a pre-requisite of being made from organic material.

Thinking as such is backwards thinking and is the kind of attitude which causes racial prejudice and discrimination.

A.I. can't reproduce or grow

[Grimwick]

o Ventus wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Then you misunderstand what a reaction is: it is the transfer of electrons.

The metabolism is governed by a variety of different chemical reactions but when it comes down to it, these reactions all involve the movement and transfer of electrons in different ways.

That's what Chemistry IS.

A synthetic 'brain' is no different in the fact that it's thought processes are governed by electrical stimulation.

You mean "reaction" in the literal sense? Because no...

Chemistry is literally defined as "the science of matter". Matter is more than just electrons. Semantics.

Sure, it involves the transfer and movement of electrons, but that isn't even remotely the only thing going on. That's a highly generalized statement.

The movement of electrons is pretty much what governs chemical reactions and properties. Other influences fall mainly into the realm of physics... (such as kinetics/energetics).

The 'study of matter' is a generilisation on your part.

[Baronesa]

nitefyre410 wrote...

 The great and distingust Jean Luc Picard  somes up my thoughts on AI 

better than even I can...

Measure of a Man

This video needs to be brought up agan to the discussion... SO relevant.

[Grimwick]

Enhanced wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Of course an AI is life. It is so by definition.


If the AI is sentient and self-aware then it has exactly the same rights as any other organism.

Anybody who claims an AI isn't a form of life doesn't understand what the definition of life actually is.

What defintion are you refering to?  An artificial intelligence is a fake, unnatural, imitation of life. Not an organism.

Life (cf. biota) - is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not.
An organism - is any contiguous living system . In at least some form, all types of organisms are capable of response to stimuli, reproduction, growth and development, and maintenance of homeostasisas a stable whole.

Nowhere in the definition of life, nor organism, is there a pre-requisite of being made from organic material.

Thinking as such is backwards thinking and is the kind of attitude which causes racial prejudice and discrimination.

A.I. can't reproduce or grow

The geth reproduced. They copied themselves and differentiated into new organisms. Growth is simply getting bigger/larger. Geth can do this too.

You were just flat out wrong there.

[Baronesa]

Enhanced wrote...

A.I. can't reproduce or grow

An AI creating a new AI more powerful... Technological singularity... and the creation of that money laundering AI on the first Mass Effect. It was created by an another AI to help the criminal to funnel credits from the gambling machines.

[IscrewTali]

As to AI having the rights of a human. Let's see if you still feel that way when your precious AI begins a galaxy wide extinction cycle that will repeat for millions of years.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

mauro2222 wrote...

We have a purpose, to reproduce. That's the objective of all living things, to ensure their continued existence.

As stated so in the bible?
Our life is nothing but to ensure we go on as a species? We have failed our existence if we do not reproduce? Your opinion is still subjective. A matter of your opinion. We have all seen AI...Gigolo Joe had a distinct purpose he was made for. We, as organics can not say that. I believe that to be an advantage that they have over us. We search for answers; that is how we found religion and fuel fires that need to be extinguished.

@Grimwick

That was my very specific point. Given what neuroscience says about emotion then AI's are indeed capable of having emotions, even if the process is not the same as organics. I was not discrminating in the slightest. 

Modifié par Poshible, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:05 .

[Dranks]

Honestly I don't really believe it's alive because I'm a believer in the soul in the religious sense but that is a whole other argument. However I do think that if something has the ability to feel emotions then they should be treated with kindness and respect.

Let's just hope if we do get some AI in real life it turns into a Lieutenant Commander Data and not a Catalyst.

Modifié par Dranks, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:05 .

[-WeAreLegion-]

Grimwick wrote...

-WeAreLegion- wrote...

Our current level of AI: no, it is in no way "alive."

Mass Effect-level AI is, I believe as alive as any of us are.
(side note: I really hate using that term. "life" is what distinguishes organic things from inorganic things, and requires that said being has the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change. This definition is not, in it's base form with all components, suitable for application to an AI. I believe AIs (at the ME-level) are alive as they fit this definition save possessing the ability to reproduce (i.e. sexual/asexually.) i also believe that the level of life that we are referring to hinges greatly on the capacity for 'human emotion,' which Mass Effect AIs have, as of lately (ME3.))

Common misconception - there is no distinguishment in the definition of life between organic life and inorganic life.

Organic simply means containing carbon compounds. Why would the term 'life' discriminate against organisms which aren't based on carbon compounds?

Damn, and here I was hoping to sound intelligent. Good point. Also, makes the Geth even more 'alive'

[Baronesa]

Dranks wrote...

Honestly I don't really believe it's alive because I'm a believer in the soul in the religious sense but that is a whole other argument. However I do think that if something has the ability to feel emotions then they should be treated with kindness and respect.

Let's just hope if we do get some AI in real life it turns into a Lieutenant Commander Data and not a Catalyst.

Just treat them like gingers...

sorry... couldn't resist.

[Grimwick]

IscrewTali wrote...

As to AI having the rights of a human. Let's see if you still feel that way when your precious AI begins a galaxy wide extinction cycle that will repeat for millions of years.

Sigh.

Got any actual points to raise or are you just trolling?

[o Ventus]

Grimwick wrote...

The 'study of matter' is a generilisation on your part.

No it isn't.

Dictionary.com wrote...

The science that deals with the composition and properties of substances and various elementary form of matter.

Merriam-Webster wrote...

The science that deals with the composition, structure, and properties of substances and with the transformations that they undergo.

Oxford wrote...

The branch of science that deals with the identification of the substances of which matter is composed.

Again, it's literally defined as the science of studying matter.

Modifié par o Ventus, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:09 .

[mauro2222]

Poshible wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

We have a purpose, to reproduce. That's the objective of all living things, to ensure their continued existence.

As stated so in the bible?
Our life is nothing but to ensure we go on as a species? We have failed our existence if we do not reproduce? Your opinion is still subjective. A matter of your opinion. We have all seen AI...Gigolo Joe had a distinct purpose he was made for. We, as organics can not say that. I believe that to be an advantage that they have over us. We search for answers; that is how we found religion and fuel fires that need to be extinguished.

What you make of your life, or life itself is different to the basic instinct that every living being has.