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[Grimwick]

IscrewTali wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

As to AI having the rights of a human. Let's see if you still feel that way when your precious AI begins a galaxy wide extinction cycle that will repeat for millions of years.

Sigh.

Got any actual points to raise or are you just trolling?

It is a very valid concern, mind you. AI dont share the needs of organics. It would not surprise me if one of them decided they dont need us, whiping us out from the equation.

So what's the difference there between that AI and, say, China deciding that they don't like everyone and nuking us?

That 'valid' concern doesn't apply only to synthetics...

They wont, because it would lead to China being nuked aswell. It may have been the case in old times, before WMD's. The only thing Synthetics would need to do is spread a plaque killing all organics, and what could we do? Attempt to infect a virus into a system that is constantly evolving, and most likely more advanced than your own tech at the moment of the attack.
So no cant be compared to China.

Wow, speculation as a logical argument? Sorry but nope.

The initial motivations are flawed was my point. You can't justify killing something because it might kill you...

Your neighbour might kill you, should you go kill him now to stop it?

[mauro2222]

IscrewTali wrote...

The Catalyst was created to be a peaceful AI to serve as a negotiator between organics and synthetics. Over time it had to change its approach to the subject because it was finding no solution. So began the extinction cycle. Can something like that be a valid motive for an organic? i certainly dont think so.

Yes it can, the Catalyst has an illogical reasoning and it seems to lack a learning capability. And insane person does the same.

[IscrewTali]

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

They wont, because it would lead to China being nuked aswell. It may have been the case in old times, before WMD's. The only thing Synthetics would need to do is spread a plaque killing all organics, and what could we do? Attempt to infect a virus into a system that is constantly evolving, and most likely more advanced than your own tech at the moment of the attack.
So no cant be compared to China.

I can say that China nuked everyone because they were slow to react, that doesn't change the fact that the motive is illogical. Just like an AI killing everybody because they don't need them.

An AI's motives are beyond the comprehension of organics.

My motives are also beyond your comprehension. My mind is not the same as yours, I perceive reality in a way you don't.

What makes you think i wouldnt comprehend your motives? Agreeing to a motive and comprehending it are different.

[Grimwick]

Enhanced wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Of course an AI is life. It is so by definition.


If the AI is sentient and self-aware then it has exactly the same rights as any other organism.

Anybody who claims an AI isn't a form of life doesn't understand what the definition of life actually is.

What defintion are you refering to?  An artificial intelligence is a fake, unnatural, imitation of life. Not an organism.

Life (cf. biota) - is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not.
An organism - is any contiguous living system . In at least some form, all types of organisms are capable of response to stimuli, reproduction, growth and development, and maintenance of homeostasisas a stable whole.

Nowhere in the definition of life, nor organism, is there a pre-requisite of being made from organic material.

Thinking as such is backwards thinking and is the kind of attitude which causes racial prejudice and discrimination.

A.I. can't reproduce or grow

The geth reproduced. They copied themselves and differentiated into new organisms. Growth is simply getting bigger/larger. Geth can do this too.

You were just flat out wrong there.

I'm sorry I thought we were talking about real life.

In real life you say?

Well from what i've heard no true AI has ever been invented/created. You are just speculating.

Exactly. Geth, Reapers, EDI, it's all science fiction/fantasy. Nothing like them will ever exist in real life. 

An absolute statement? Rofl.

That is pure, unsubstantiated rubbish.

[o Ventus]

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

They wont, because it would lead to China being nuked aswell. It may have been the case in old times, before WMD's. The only thing Synthetics would need to do is spread a plaque killing all organics, and what could we do? Attempt to infect a virus into a system that is constantly evolving, and most likely more advanced than your own tech at the moment of the attack.
So no cant be compared to China.

I can say that China nuked everyone because they were slow to react, that doesn't change the fact that the motive is illogical. Just like an AI killing everybody because they don't need them.

An AI's motives are beyond the comprehension of organics.

My motives are also beyond your comprehension. My mind is not the same as yours, I perceive reality in a way you don't.

Shrooms or acid?

[mauro2222]

IscrewTali wrote...

What makes you think i wouldnt comprehend your motives? Agreeing to a motive and comprehending it are different.

Could you comprehend me if I shoot trafic signs when I see one? If you could go inside my mind and see that I don't see trafic signs but monsters, you might be able to comprehend my situation, but you can't do that. If you could go inside the mind of an AI you can also comprehend it, but you can't. The only thing that sustains the "organics can't comprehend us" bs, is the refusal to explain what they see, how they see it, and why they choose such path.

We comprehend the motives of the Catalyst, the motives of the Geth and the motives of EDI.

Modifié par mauro2222, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:40 .

[mauro2222]

o Ventus wrote...

Shrooms or acid?

Poisoned food.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

mauro2222 wrote...

Poshible wrote...

I think you missed my point...
We are not created for any specific purpose. We are genetic mutations that adapt to survive, yes. There is no sole purpose behind one person's birth. 
If I make an AI, I made it for a purpose, it would be much like Rosie, from The Jetson's because I want a maid I do not have to pay. Me, I was not created to serve a purpose. Sure, I have goals--but alas I was not created for that purpose, I searched for a purpose. As organic's that is what we do.

It's the same, you exist with a purpose but you choose to not follow, an AI can do the same.

Every little cell in your body is your creator, this universe is your creator, you are here to reproduce, if you don't want to do it, don't do it, if you say to an AI for what was made, is going to do the same, just change reproduce for whatever you want, that doesn't mean it's going to do it.

Searching for a purpose is an action taken by yourself to give a meaning to your life and existance.

But you are fundamentally incorrect. Again though, you are being subjective. You are applying your opinion of organic life's "purpose" to others. It is incorrect.

I am not religious, I have no belief that God created me to "be fruitful and multiply". I do not live in that illusion, because I do not believe in magic.

Your logic insists our cells should give us our purpose, as should the universe. You are applying philosphy to the topic at hand.

[Grimwick]

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

What makes you think i wouldnt comprehend your motives? Agreeing to a motive and comprehending it are different.

Could you comprehend me if I shoot trafic signs when I see one? If you could go inside my mind and see that I don't see trafic signs but monsters, you might be able to comprehend my situation, but you can't do that. If you could go inside the mind of an AI you can also comprehend it, but you can't. The only thing that sustains the "organics can't comprehend us" bs, is the refusal to explain what they see, how they see it, and why they choose such path.

screwTali is making the common mistake in these debates in believing her/himself to be the only true consciousness.

I have a horrible feeling we are entering a world of Solipsism and Descartes philosophy here... let's move on.

Modifié par Grimwick, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:57 .

[IscrewTali]

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

The Catalyst was created to be a peaceful AI to serve as a negotiator between organics and synthetics. Over time it had to change its approach to the subject because it was finding no solution. So began the extinction cycle. Can something like that be a valid motive for an organic? i certainly dont think so.

Yes it can, the Catalyst has an illogical reasoning and it seems to lack a learning capability. And insane person does the same.

Illogical in your opinion. To the AI it was completely logical.



Insane: The label given to people who open the door that
sane people keep closed... the people who are consumed by the awareness
of their existence, when everyone else is blind to their own... the
people who can distinguish the reality of illusion from those who live
the illusion of reality.

The same could be applied to an AI's motives. No sane person would understand them.

[Grimwick]

Poshible wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Poshible wrote...

I think you missed my point...
We are not created for any specific purpose. We are genetic mutations that adapt to survive, yes. There is no sole purpose behind one person's birth. 
If I make an AI, I made it for a purpose, it would be much like Rosie, from The Jetson's because I want a maid I do not have to pay. Me, I was not created to serve a purpose. Sure, I have goals--but alas I was not created for that purpose, I searched for a purpose. As organic's that is what we do.

It's the same, you exist with a purpose but you choose to not follow, an AI can do the same.

Every little cell in your body is your creator, this universe is your creator, you are here to reproduce, if you don't want to do it, don't do it, if you say to an AI for what was made, is going to do the same, just change reproduce for whatever you want, that doesn't mean it's going to do it.

Searching for a purpose is an action taken by yourself to give a meaning to your life and existance.

But you are fundamentally incorrect. Again though, you are being subjective. You are applying your opinion of organic life's "purpose" to others. It is incorrect.

I am not religious, I have no belief that God created me to "be fruitful and multiply". I do not live in that illusion, because I do not believe in magic.

Your logic insists our cells should give us our purpose, as should the universe. You are applying philosphy to the topic at hand.

Well on a fundamental level life is defined as a self-sustaining process.

(I'm atheist btw) If it was created/formed/whatever with no purpose in mind, then by definition it's only purpose is to self-sustain. And that involves reproducing.

That isn't a subjective viewpoint - the only common denominator of life is reproduction and homeostasis.

[mauro2222]

Poshible wrote...

But you are fundamentally incorrect. Again though, you are being subjective. You are applying your opinion of organic life's "purpose" to others. It is incorrect.

I am not religious, I have no belief that God created me to "be fruitful and multiply". I do not live in that illusion, because I do not believe in magic.

Your logic insists our cells should give us our purpose, as should the universe. You are applying philosphy to the topic at hand.

Is not my opinion, it's the basic instint of life, survival.

You don't need no one to give you a purpose, that's the whole point of finding it by yourself. That why my example was about the creator and his will being abstract such as the universe.

Modifié par mauro2222, 02 juillet 2012 - 09:45 .

[mauro2222]

IscrewTali wrote...

Illogical in your opinion. To the AI it was completely logical.

Insane: The label given to people who open the door that
sane people keep closed... the people who are consumed by the awareness
of their existence, when everyone else is blind to their own... the
people who can distinguish the reality of illusion from those who live
the illusion of reality.

The same could be applied to an AI's motives. No sane person would understand them.

Exactly my point. The catalyst is insane. And that's something you comprehend. The Geth can also come to the same conclusion.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

mauro2222 wrote...

Poshible wrote...

But you are fundamentally incorrect. Again though, you are being subjective. You are applying your opinion of organic life's "purpose" to others. It is incorrect.

I am not religious, I have no belief that God created me to "be fruitful and multiply". I do not live in that illusion, because I do not believe in magic.

Your logic insists our cells should give us our purpose, as should the universe. You are applying philosphy to the topic at hand.

Is not my opinion, it's the basic instint of life, survival.

You don't need no one to give you a purpose, that's the whole point of finding it by yourself. That why my example was about the creator and his will being abstract such as the universe.

Instinct is not a purpose. I also did not state organics needed a purpose. My point was that synthetics are made for a purpose; organics are not. It was that very simple.

[IscrewTali]

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Illogical in your opinion. To the AI it was completely logical.

Insane: The label given to people who open the door that
sane people keep closed... the people who are consumed by the awareness
of their existence, when everyone else is blind to their own... the
people who can distinguish the reality of illusion from those who live
the illusion of reality.

The same could be applied to an AI's motives. No sane person would understand them.

Exactly my point. The catalyst is insane. And that's something you comprehend. The Geth can also come to the same conclusion.

But the threat of a single person being insane is insignificant compared to an AI such as Catalyst. That is why AI should allways be allowed to work only within set parameters, not be given freedom.

Why not give an AI the same freedom of organics? Because if you're wrong, the consequences are far more severe. AI like EDI and Geth would have never been born if not for the Catalyst. Is it worth it?

[Grimwick]

IscrewTali wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Illogical in your opinion. To the AI it was completely logical.

Insane: The label given to people who open the door that
sane people keep closed... the people who are consumed by the awareness
of their existence, when everyone else is blind to their own... the
people who can distinguish the reality of illusion from those who live
the illusion of reality.

The same could be applied to an AI's motives. No sane person would understand them.

Exactly my point. The catalyst is insane. And that's something you comprehend. The Geth can also come to the same conclusion.

Why not give an AI the same freedom of organics? Because if you're wrong, the consequences are far more severe. AI like EDI and Geth would have never been born if not for the Catalyst. Is it worth it?

Unsubstantiated.

Evidence please?

[mauro2222]

Poshible wrote...

Instinct is not a purpose. I also did not state organics needed a purpose. My point was that synthetics are made for a purpose; organics are not. It was that very simple.

If you don't do anything for your survival, you cease to exist. Self preservation is your purpose, and that includes reproduction.

[IscrewTali]

Grimwick wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Illogical in your opinion. To the AI it was completely logical.

Insane: The label given to people who open the door that
sane people keep closed... the people who are consumed by the awareness
of their existence, when everyone else is blind to their own... the
people who can distinguish the reality of illusion from those who live
the illusion of reality.

The same could be applied to an AI's motives. No sane person would understand them.

Exactly my point. The catalyst is insane. And that's something you comprehend. The Geth can also come to the same conclusion.

Why not give an AI the same freedom of organics? Because if you're wrong, the consequences are far more severe. AI like EDI and Geth would have never been born if not for the Catalyst. Is it worth it?

Unsubstantiated.

Evidence please?

The Catalyst. The Metacon War. Countless cycles before this.

[mauro2222]

IscrewTali wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Illogical in your opinion. To the AI it was completely logical.

Insane: The label given to people who open the door that
sane people keep closed... the people who are consumed by the awareness
of their existence, when everyone else is blind to their own... the
people who can distinguish the reality of illusion from those who live
the illusion of reality.

The same could be applied to an AI's motives. No sane person would understand them.

Exactly my point. The catalyst is insane. And that's something you comprehend. The Geth can also come to the same conclusion.

But the threat of a single person being insane is insignificant compared to an AI such as Catalyst. That is why AI should allways be allowed to work only within set parameters, not be given freedom.

Why not give an AI the same freedom of organics? Because if you're wrong, the consequences are far more severe. AI like EDI and Geth would have never been born if not for the Catalyst. Is it worth it?

It doesn't matter if you are an insane human or an insane AI... both are insane, both are incapable of doing the job. You can put an insane human in the place of the Catalyst, he's going to **** everything like the Catalyst.

You're doing the same thing that led the Quarians to war. The Geth knew they were treated different and their lifes were not respected due to the Quarians wanting a labor force. The Quarians were using slaves, they were not mechanical tools anymore, the fear of them knowing this and the fear of losing their working hand was what caused the war. Following your idea, the possibility of an AI rebelling to fight for it's rights is far more greater.

Modifié par mauro2222, 02 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .

[Baronesa]

IscrewTali wrote...

The Catalyst. The Metacon War. Countless cycles before this.

Catalyst: Check

Metacon War: uhmm I thought they were fighting an hybrid race... aka more akin to cyborgs than purely synthetics...

Countless Cycles: speculation.

Ignores the Geth

Ignores EDI


Would also point out that the thread is not ME universe restricted, but we are talking about AI in general.

Modifié par Baronesa, 02 juillet 2012 - 10:07 .

[Grimwick]

IscrewTali wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Illogical in your opinion. To the AI it was completely logical.

Insane: The label given to people who open the door that
sane people keep closed... the people who are consumed by the awareness
of their existence, when everyone else is blind to their own... the
people who can distinguish the reality of illusion from those who live
the illusion of reality.

The same could be applied to an AI's motives. No sane person would understand them.

Exactly my point. The catalyst is insane. And that's something you comprehend. The Geth can also come to the same conclusion.

Why not give an AI the same freedom of organics? Because if you're wrong, the consequences are far more severe. AI like EDI and Geth would have never been born if not for the Catalyst. Is it worth it?

Unsubstantiated.

Evidence please?

The Catalyst. The Metacon War. Countless cycles before this.

Doesn't make them more severe necessarily. You made an absolute statement.

What about the countless billions of lives lost in organic/organic conflicts? To say one is worse than the other requires definitve knowledge of both sides. You don't have that and are just guessing.

Besides, Catalyst =/= all AI, geth =/= all AI, Metacon War =/= all AI.

[mauro2222]

IscrewTali wrote...

The Catalyst. The Metacon War. Countless cycles before this.

The Metacon War was thanks to the Reapers, and taking in mind that this repeats itself, it gives you an aswer to the "why" of the countless cycles before. The Catalyst is directly responsable for everything.

Modifié par mauro2222, 02 juillet 2012 - 10:08 .

[Eain]

What do I think about AI?

I think that I'm going to bookmark this thread and pass it down to future generations so that one day AI can look at this and laugh at the bigotry of some people.

[AnImpossibleGirl]

mauro2222 wrote...

Poshible wrote...

Instinct is not a purpose. I also did not state organics needed a purpose. My point was that synthetics are made for a purpose; organics are not. It was that very simple.

If you don't do anything for your survival, you cease to exist. Self preservation is your purpose, and that includes reproduction.

You missed the point. You cannot solve the mystery of the existence of a synthetic object if you are not familiar with it; the object cannot tell you the purpose of its existence. Only the creator can. The same is true of organics.

I do not believe in God, therefore in my subjective view there is no creator of man.

All answers given on this subject are speculation. We don't actually have it figured out.

[IscrewTali]

Baronesa wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

The Catalyst. The Metacon War. Countless cycles before this.

Catalyst: Check

Metacon War: uhmm I thought they were fighting an hybrid race... aka more akin to cyborgs than purely synthetics...

Countless Cycles: speculation.

Ignores the Geth

Ignores EDI


Would also point out that the thread is not ME universe restricted, but we are talking about AI in general.

The Cyborgs in Metacon War were controlled by an AI, much like the Catalyst controls Reapers and ground units.
EDI was only able to be created because of the existence of the Catalyst.
Geth on the other hand would have never been nothing more than loyal VI servants, if not for the hive mind the Quarians created to boost their intelligence.
Previous cycles: The reason for the extinction cycle is to remove the threat of synthetics by also whiping out those that could soon recreate them. If the current cycle had no synthetic presense, the Reapers likely would not have invaded. That leads me to believe all previous cycles had a synthetic threat during the time of the end their cycles.