It randomly occured to me today that there's no reason for Howe to do that, at least none I can think of. Vaughan was believed to be dead and his eycape could have endangered Howe's position. Vaughan doesn't even look like he's been tortured -- and I can't remember him comenting about that happening, so it seems it wasn't because Howe found him "amusing" or something.
In the same vein, why let Irminric live? Though I suppose he could have served as a possible hostage should Alfstanna turn against Loghain, similar to Oswyn (though there was no reason to *torture* him, was there?). And Soris doesn't even know that there's a new Arl, that the King is dead etc, so it seems he was just locked up there taking up space and resources because Howe... couldn't be bothered to get rid of him? Rexel had already gone mad and IIRC doesn't have any particular ties to the nobility, he's just a survivor of Ostagar. There doesn't seem to be a point in keeping him around.
I dunno, are there things I just don't see, or did Howe just love wasting resources? It's not even like he tortured everyone, or Soris would likely have picked up on some things by now and Vaughan would have ****ed about that.
Why did Howe let Vaughan live?
Débuté par
Fiacre
, juin 30 2012 07:18
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#2
Posté 30 juin 2012 - 09:17
gandanlin
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It could be that Howe cared so little about his prisoners that he just tossed them in his dungeons and then promptly forgot about them.
There did not seem to be any real legal process in Ferelden -- not that I could see anyway. The Arls and Banns and Teyrns appeared to have had pretty free rein in what they did with prisoners. Left prisoners in their cells to rot in chains and shackles if it suited them, maybe.
There did not seem to be any real legal process in Ferelden -- not that I could see anyway. The Arls and Banns and Teyrns appeared to have had pretty free rein in what they did with prisoners. Left prisoners in their cells to rot in chains and shackles if it suited them, maybe.
Modifié par gandanlin, 30 juin 2012 - 09:44 .
#3
Posté 30 juin 2012 - 09:41
Fiacre
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What bothers me about that is the waste of resources -- he needs people to feed the prisoners, needs someone to clean the cells or, er, pots or have them provided with opportunities to go out of their cells to go to the toilet (wouldn't they get sick otherwise? Especially if left there for months...) and needs to pay for the food and water.
And considering that he killed the Couslands, I don't see why he wouldn't have killed Vaughan as well when taking over Denerim.
And considering that he killed the Couslands, I don't see why he wouldn't have killed Vaughan as well when taking over Denerim.
#4
Posté 30 juin 2012 - 09:45
TEWR
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I'm hardly an expert on medieval politics, but I'll give my 2 cents on the matter:
1) Vaughan -- Scratch that.... I'm mistaken on a few fronts after remembering Vaughan's dialogue. I've got no clue why he would be kept alive. He shows no signs of torture, makes no mention of it, etc. Aside from being alive as an extra vote in the Landsmeet, I don't know why Howe wouldn't have killed him. Though considering you fight Howe in the room outside that specific jail, one could assume he might've been going there to tie up loose ends.
2) Irminric -- as you said, possibly hostage to force Alfstanna to act in Loghain's interests. Though given Howe's predilection for taking the lands of other people, it also could be that he wanted Alfstanna's lands and Irminric was his way into acquiring them.
3) Soris was one of the Elves imprisoned by Vaughan's men IIRC, so Arl Howe probably didn't even notice him. He doesn't really care about Elves anyway.
4) Rexel -- according to the DA wiki anyway -- apparently ate Darkspawn flesh and became tainted, given his posture and his comments. I've never really paid attention to Rexel's comments so I can't verify the truth on this, but having him imprisoned would theoretically allow Loghain and Howe to find out intel on the Darkspawn and the Archdemon if it's true. Assuming of course they wanted to do that. Loghain eventually realizes the Blight is real -- despite his doubts on the Wardens' necessity towards them.
Or they just wanted to keep a raving Ghoul from wandering the streets.
Or Howe was torturing him as well and that's why Rexel has the posture he does. Again, I never really paid much attention to Rexel's comments -- though I vaguely recall some of the dialogue he says -- so I'm not certain.
As a final note, it's entirely possible Howe wasn't even doing the imprisoning. He did have his own Jailor after all.
1) Vaughan -- Scratch that.... I'm mistaken on a few fronts after remembering Vaughan's dialogue. I've got no clue why he would be kept alive. He shows no signs of torture, makes no mention of it, etc. Aside from being alive as an extra vote in the Landsmeet, I don't know why Howe wouldn't have killed him. Though considering you fight Howe in the room outside that specific jail, one could assume he might've been going there to tie up loose ends.
2) Irminric -- as you said, possibly hostage to force Alfstanna to act in Loghain's interests. Though given Howe's predilection for taking the lands of other people, it also could be that he wanted Alfstanna's lands and Irminric was his way into acquiring them.
3) Soris was one of the Elves imprisoned by Vaughan's men IIRC, so Arl Howe probably didn't even notice him. He doesn't really care about Elves anyway.
4) Rexel -- according to the DA wiki anyway -- apparently ate Darkspawn flesh and became tainted, given his posture and his comments. I've never really paid attention to Rexel's comments so I can't verify the truth on this, but having him imprisoned would theoretically allow Loghain and Howe to find out intel on the Darkspawn and the Archdemon if it's true. Assuming of course they wanted to do that. Loghain eventually realizes the Blight is real -- despite his doubts on the Wardens' necessity towards them.
Or they just wanted to keep a raving Ghoul from wandering the streets.
Or Howe was torturing him as well and that's why Rexel has the posture he does. Again, I never really paid much attention to Rexel's comments -- though I vaguely recall some of the dialogue he says -- so I'm not certain.
As a final note, it's entirely possible Howe wasn't even doing the imprisoning. He did have his own Jailor after all.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 juin 2012 - 09:56 .
#5
Posté 30 juin 2012 - 09:49
gandanlin
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Not sure about the staff. Could be they were paid to be there no matter how full or empty the dungeons might be.
Could also be that living prisoners help to move the plot forward in a more interesting way than dead prisoners do.
Could also be that living prisoners help to move the plot forward in a more interesting way than dead prisoners do.
#6
Posté 30 juin 2012 - 09:53
TEWR
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gandanlin wrote...
Could also be that living prisoners help to move the plot forward in a more interesting way than dead prisoners do.
Also this.
#7
Posté 30 juin 2012 - 09:58
Fiacre
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Well, standard procedure for disposing of bodies seems to be burning them, so a charred corpse wouldn't be too strange and then no one could ask why it's only done now -- no one would know it's Vaughan, after all. And it would be done by people loyal to Howe; like the ones that you meet in the dungeon in the first place, or that dude whose note to Howe you can find in Vigil's Keep's basement.
I never thought about taking Alfstanna's land... Urgh. Having a plan to blackmail her with his life seems possible.
Rexel does indicate that he ate Darkspawn flesh ("They said they were only Darkspawn, but we ate them, too.") And he does behave like Ruck, while the definitely tortured (and potentially crippled) Oswyn stands normally, as does Irminric, despite Lyrium withdrawal. Strangely, the journal says something about his mind having shattered from torture. It seems to me like it'd be more prudent to kill and burn him to avoid having him spread the taint, but I suppose using him to gather information on the Archdemon could be possible.
And if it was the Jailor, I still say that guy was awfully lazy with Soris. Though I suppose Howe has the space and money...
Indeed
It just bothers me when it doesn't make too much sense, though I can see a reasoning for some now.
I never thought about taking Alfstanna's land... Urgh. Having a plan to blackmail her with his life seems possible.
Rexel does indicate that he ate Darkspawn flesh ("They said they were only Darkspawn, but we ate them, too.") And he does behave like Ruck, while the definitely tortured (and potentially crippled) Oswyn stands normally, as does Irminric, despite Lyrium withdrawal. Strangely, the journal says something about his mind having shattered from torture. It seems to me like it'd be more prudent to kill and burn him to avoid having him spread the taint, but I suppose using him to gather information on the Archdemon could be possible.
And if it was the Jailor, I still say that guy was awfully lazy with Soris. Though I suppose Howe has the space and money...
gandanlin wrote...
Could also be that living prisoners help to move the plot forward in a more interesting way than dead prisoners do.
Indeed
It just bothers me when it doesn't make too much sense, though I can see a reasoning for some now.
Modifié par Fiacre, 30 juin 2012 - 10:01 .
#8
Posté 01 juillet 2012 - 10:36
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Fiacre wrote...
It seems to me like it'd be more prudent to kill and burn him to avoid having him spread the taint
Ghouls can't spread the taint.
#9
Posté 01 juillet 2012 - 10:59
Wulfram
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Howe's basically a sadist, I assumed that was why he kept people alive.
#10
Posté 01 juillet 2012 - 12:08
Fiacre
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Ghouls can't spread the taint.
They don't? I always assumed that's why they'd burn that village in the story Ser Gilmore tells... Out of curiousity, do you remember where that was said? (...Now I feel guilty or killing that poor sod in Kal'Hirol.)
Wulfram wrote...
Howe's basically a sadist, I assumed that was why he kept people alive.
That was my first thought, too, but neither Soris nor Vaughan seem to have been tortured. And Vaughan would surely mention it, I think.
#11
Posté 01 juillet 2012 - 02:38
TEWR
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Fiacre wrote...
They don't? I always assumed that's why they'd burn that village in the story Ser Gilmore tells... Out of curiousity, do you remember where that was said? (...Now I feel guilty or killing that poor sod in Kal'Hirol.)
I think it's more that if they live, they'll attract the Darkspawn to them or go out in search of them. Additionally, they tend to lose hold of their sanity so they'd probably go on murderous rampages. Also, it might be a mercy killing/prudent act as in Amaranthine. Finally, female Ghouls might turn into broodmothers.
I think it was stated on the forums by Gaider himself that Ghouls cannot spread the taint. There's only one way they could do that and it's a very broad definition of "spreading the taint". That's by having a female Ghoul become a broodmother and give birth to the Darkspawn.
If Ghouls could spread the taint, then Wardens would effectively do that as well, somewhat defeating their purpose. They're still Ghouls, even if they don't have the mannerisms of it until 30 years or so later.
