299 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

The Warden has dialogue options that allow him (or her) to state that he doesn't believe in the Maker, while the dialogue options for Hawke seem to be written for an Andrastian protagonist, particularly in his dialogues with Merrill and Sebastian, including a line where he says something is "with the Maker." With the discussions about how certain elements from Dragon Age II are making it into Dragon Age III, I wonder if this issue would be addressed as well. I don't think the choice should be made for our protagonist.

From a RP perspective, I would prefer to have the same degree of choice that my Warden had in Origins, rather than having the choice made for me like I experienced with Hawke in Dragon Age II. Considering that we have atheist characters like Morrigan and Aveline, I think it might be a good option to allow the next protagonist to have the option to be an atheist, in the same way that The Warden had the option.

[Realmzmaster]

Actually I think that Aveline is agnostic. She simply does not know. She shows that in dialogue with Hawke when she says that Wesley is either with the Maker or not.

It would be difficult to be married to a templar if you are diametrically oppose to his or her beliefs. Not impossible, but very difficult.

[TEWR]

Aveline does seem to be more agnostic then atheist, 'tis true. She doesn't say she doesn't believe in the Maker nor that she thinks He doesn't exist. Just that there's no way for her to really know what's what.

Agnostics are those people that neither believe nor disbelieve. That's Aveline to a tee.

Atheists like Morrigan and the Warden will state they don't believe in the Maker and that they think there's no merit to the claims of His existence.

On the whole though, I agree that it should be present to make your character an atheist. At the very least, an agnostic.

[Dave of Canada]

How many times have you made this thread, Lobsel? Five? Six?

[Wulfram]

Generally, I think you can have Hawke be an atheist/agnostic, even if they're culturally Andrastean. I say vaguely Christian things occasionally - and indeed celebrate Christmas - despite not only being an atheist but the child of atheists

Though they could maybe try a bit harder to avoid including some of the more strongly religious things without labelling the paraphrase as such. Though I believe the "with the maker" dialogue only happens if you agree with Merrill saying that "Leandra is in a better place now" - in which case you should expect religious dialogue really.

[MichaelStuart]

I agree that being able to choose your beliefs, is a must for Dragon Age 3.

[Vormaerin]

I think you are significantly underestimating the difficulty of being atheist in a culture with a monolithic religion. Leastwise, atheist in the outspoken way the OP is talking about.

In the modern world, its easy to find support for divergent beliefs. Its not nearly so easy to do so in pre-enlightenment cultures. If you professed atheism in Ancient Rome, you could get executed. If you did so in Moslem or Christian countries in the middle ages, you were shunned by folks even if you didn't attract any official opprobrium.

The cultural function of religion is to validate the norms of society and create unity. An atheist is effectively challenging the structure of society. That's why it was Emperors and Kings who took the lead in destroying heresy, not the Church. The Church originally taught that the goal was repentance, but the government said "hell no, they are defying my authority. Kill them!." It was centuries before the Church got with the program on that.

It seems likely that if you run around Thedas denying the Maker and Andraste openly, you'll get a lot of folks who refuse to do business with you, actively make your life harder, and perhaps even get you into legal troubles. Wardens can get away with it because they are outside the law and generally considered subversive weirdos anyway.

[Wulfram]

IIRC the Grand Cleric only gets mildly pissy at you for doubting the Maker's role in the defeat of the Archdemon. And Cousland can be an atheist in the Origin before recruitment and get away with telling this to Mother Mallol.

[Fauxnormal]

I think you should keep your personal issues out of a game. No one's forcing you to believe anything. Hawke makes references to the Maker on occasion, but quite a few of my friends who are about as religious as toads often say OH MY GOD or 'God help us'.

Simple as.

[Emzamination]

Fauxnormal wrote...

I think you should keep your personal issues out of a game. No one's forcing you to believe anything. Hawke makes references to the Maker on occasion, but quite a few of my friends who are about as religious as toads often say OH MY GOD or 'God help us'.

Simple as.

I agree, stop trying to bring these real world wars into thedas, they have enough problems.

[LobselVith8]

Fauxnormal wrote...

I think you should keep your personal issues out of a game. No one's forcing you to believe anything. Hawke makes references to the Maker on occasion, but quite a few of my friends who are about as religious as toads often say OH MY GOD or 'God help us'.

Simple as.

The Warden could be atheist. I don't see why the next protagonist should be prohibited from being atheist. And being atheist in Thedas doesn't reflect my real world beliefs any more than my Tribunal Dunmer mage or my Sithis worshipping assassin in Skyrim does. All I'm addressing is control over the protagonist. If you're not interested in discussing this issue about fictional characters and a fictional religion from Thedas, you're welcome not to participate, but please don't try to police my thread.

[PsychoBlonde]

Vormaerin wrote...

I think you are significantly underestimating the difficulty of being atheist in a culture with a monolithic religion. Leastwise, atheist in the outspoken way the OP is talking about.

Most of the Chantry members you meet in DA:O are pretty reasonable, actually, and the (very few) times you can flat-out say "I don't believe in this" (Human Noble Origin is the only one I'm absolutely certain of) all they say is "aww, that's too bad, I'm going to pray for you to change your mind".

The only real exception to this overall policy appears to be Mother Petrice, and EVERYONE seems to be aware that she's BAT**** CRAZY.  Oh, and Meredith but it's anyone's guess as to how much she represents "the Chantry" as opposed to "the Templars".

In short, the Chantry overall is a lot closer to a post-Enlightenment Deist religion than an unreformed Dark Ages model.  The extremist groups tend to be distinct sects (The Seekers, for instance) while the bulk of the Chantry appears fairly benign.

That's not to say that events couldn't lead to an outbreak of religious hysteria/violence, all the more so because the milder elements DO NOT appear to be willing to actually TAKE A STAND against the violent extremists (or even really CONDEMN them), so you're quite likely to end up with a (pardon the metaphor) "Islam is a religion of peace!" thing going on while the metaphorical suicide bombers are gleefully massacring people.

It is more a LACK of something (angry tolerationists) than a PRESENCE of something (violent extremists) driving the issue.  The violent ones may not be particularly common, but they have free reign because NOBODY is going around saying things like "I disagree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it!" and "let them go to hell in their own way" and so forth.  The people who say things like that have to be LOUD and COMMON before the extremists get marginalized enough to have a civilizing effect on the culture.

[PsychoBlonde]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Warden could be atheist. I don't see why the next protagonist should be prohibited from being atheist. 

You may wish to note that while the Warden can deny belief in specific deities/belief systems this does not in any way necessarily indicate a declared lack of belief in ALL deities, which is what atheism is.  "I don't believe in your Maker" is worlds away from "I think the concept of god is erroneous".

Personally the whole atheism issue doesn't really bother me either way.  I'd like to be able to play a real philosophical HEAVYWEIGHT who actually comprehends the issues instead of a bland lightweight who keeps saying things like "I guess that's true" etc.  It'd be nice to get in there and really DENOUNCE THE **** out of someone.

I'm just saying.

[GodWood]

I still think it's silly to roleplay a flatout Dawkins atheist in a medeval setting which lacks organized rational/logical/scientific thought, public education etc, etc.

Personally, despite being an atheist in RL, I like to play my characters as varying degrees of religious and not simply have them as self-inserts who have come to enlighten the foolish barbarians with my modern wisdom.

[Urzon]

Fauxnormal wrote...

I think you should keep your personal issues out of a game. No one's forcing you to believe anything. Hawke makes references to the Maker on occasion, but quite a few of my friends who are about as religious as toads often say OH MY GOD or 'God help us'.

Simple as.

I agree as well. I'm an atheist, and i still say that stuff all the time. You grow up with it, and surrounded by it, it just becomes a part of your vocabulary. Whether you believe in it or not. Hawke is ambiguous enough when he/she says it, that you don't know if he/she truely believes it, or if he/she is just saying it because it's a phrase.

That and "OH (not) MY NON-EXISTENT SUPREME BEING!" and "Mythical figure humans used to explain how the world works in ages past, help us!" just doesn't roll off the tongue well.

[LightningSamus]

I remember i used to do this.

Human Noble = The Maker
City Elf = The Maker
Dalish Elf = Creators
Dwarf Commoner = Chantry Convert
Dwarf Noble = Ancestors
Mage = Atheist (I did another who becomes semi religious)

[Pzykozis]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Aveline does seem to be more agnostic then atheist, 'tis true. She doesn't say she doesn't believe in the Maker nor that she thinks He doesn't exist. Just that there's no way for her to really know what's what.

Agnostics are those people that neither believe nor disbelieve. That's Aveline to a tee.

Atheists like Morrigan and the Warden will state they don't believe in the Maker and that they think there's no merit to the claims of His existence.

On the whole though, I agree that it should be present to make your character an atheist. At the very least, an agnostic.

Thats not true, agnosticism is the thought that any deity is unknowable, or to make more sense that it's impossible to know either way, its removed from a theism ideal in that it doesn't actually relate to personal belief (it's not a matter of faith) at all you can be agnostic whilst being religious likweise whilst being an atheist.

Aveline is closer to a Deist (rejects the idea of a deity who actively intervenes with miracles and stuff, but doesn't reject the idea of the existence of an entity) I'd say though she's abit more nuanced than that.

As for the topic I'm not too bothered aslong as the matter isn't shoved down my throat, there were a couple awkward moments in DA2 I think but nothing particularly annoying, my only problem is that the andrastian belief is so very flat, need more game religions based on Norse mythology. mead unlimited food and fighting thats a religion I can get behind.

[Kidd]

LightningSamus wrote...

Dwarf Commoner = Chantry Convert

Was this purely headcanon or did you find dialogue somewhere where you could have your character show that they were changing their mind? I remember I tried having a dalish elf convert to Andrastism, but I never seemed to find anything more welcoming than "I don't mind your religion"-esque lines.

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

I agree, stop trying to bring these real world wars into thedas, they have enough problems.

I don't even understand how atheism in Thedas factors into the real world. There are topics about the Chantry, about the Maker, about the Creators and the Old Gods. It's not forbidden to discuss this, and I don't see the point in you doing nothing more than telling me to stop discussing fictional atheism for members of Andrastian society. You're being disingenuous by trying to turn this into a RL discussion when the focus is on our protagonist having the option to be atheist in the same way The Warden could be.

[Icesong]

Emzamination wrote...



I agree, stop trying to bring these real world wars into thedas, they have enough problems.

As said above, you're the one who needs to stop bringing your real world issues into this. I RP from the perspective of the setting, as it should be. Believing in the Maker makes no sense for most of my characters; but if this were Nirn I'd worship the Divines.

Fauxnormal wrote...

I think you should keep your personal issues out of a game. No one's forcing you to believe anything. Hawke makes references to the Maker on occasion, but quite a few of my friends who are about as religious as toads often say OH MY GOD or 'God help us'.

Simple as.

You too need to realize what this is actually about. Not your personal feelings. I'll use God's name as well and make ten Biblical references before getting out of bed, but if my mother died I'd never say "She's with God" like Hawke is forced to do*. That's not a quirk of language.

It seems likely that if you run around Thedas denying the Maker and Andraste openly, you'll get a lot of folks who refuse to do business with you, actively make your life harder, and perhaps even get you into legal troubles. Wardens can get away with it because they are outside the law and generally considered subversive weirdos anyway.

I don't care much to argue what could be the case but at the least statements of faith can be avoided. It's incredibly jarring to be RPing a character who doesn't believe and then have them auto-dialogued into it.

*Correction. See below.

Modifié par Icesong, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:27 .

[LightningSamus]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

LightningSamus wrote...

Dwarf Commoner = Chantry Convert

Was this purely headcanon or did you find dialogue somewhere where you could have your character show that they were changing their mind? I remember I tried having a dalish elf convert to Andrastism, but I never seemed to find anything more welcoming than "I don't mind your religion"-esque lines.

No, it's just how my character changed during the game i would make her more religious to the maker as her ancestors were nobody special and she was rude and violent to begin with but started to respect the chantry later on and become more peaceful.

[Everwarden]

Vormaerin wrote...

I think you are significantly underestimating the difficulty of being atheist in a culture with a monolithic religion. Leastwise, atheist in the outspoken way the OP is talking about.

You can be a blood mage. 

A blood mage.

I think that's a bit more dangerous than doubting the Maker. 

[Wulfram]

Icesong wrote...

You too need to realize what this is actually about. Not your personal feelings. I'll use God's name as well and make ten Biblical references before getting out of bed, but if my mother died I'd never say "She's with God" like Hawke is forced to do. That's not a quirk of language.

Hawke isn't forced to say that, unless I've missed something.  They can if they're romancing Merrill, but only if you pick "I agree" when it's suggested she's in a better place, in which case you really should expect something religious.

[Icesong]

Wulfram wrote...

Icesong wrote...

You too need to realize what this is actually about. Not your personal feelings. I'll use God's name as well and make ten Biblical references before getting out of bed, but if my mother died I'd never say "She's with God" like Hawke is forced to do. That's not a quirk of language.

Hawke isn't forced to say that, unless I've missed something.  They can if they're romancing Merrill, but only if you pick "I agree" when it's suggested she's in a better place, in which case you really should expect something religious.

Ah, right. Forgot my complaint about that scene. Your other two options are to blame mages or to snap at her. So a problem of another sort. For me anyway as neither of those are appealing. That's when I decided to retcon my character's beliefs.

As there is but one world,
One life, one death, there is
But one god, and He is our Maker.

Modifié par Icesong, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:45 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

As an atheist myself, I'm less bothered by the lack of an option to express atheism in the game, than having an atheistic dialogue option that is invariably hostile or rude. That, I think, is stereotyping atheists, and I'd rather not have an atheist aspect present at all, than a negative stereotype of what atheists are like. Sure, some atheists are rude, but, for example, in DA:O where the mother of a chantry asks you for a donation, you only have something like "Are you kidding?!" option for refusing. You cannot respectfully refuse, which is what I would do.

Thus, when playing, I always tend to agree to give a donation, even though it goes against a principle of generally preferring secular charities - because being purposefully rude and needlessly offensive to people who mean you no offense is definitely something I would not do.

I liked Aveline's agnostic take - though you could call her an atheist as well, because atheism is simply the lack of a belief in deities; you do not actively have to disbelieve to be an atheist, as long as you don't actively believe. Thus, by this definition I (and most atheists I know) use, all agnostics are either theists or atheists as well. Agnosticism is about whether you claim to know or not, and theism/atheism is about what you believe - two different issues. "Belief" does not imply absolute belief, and certainly does not equal a claim of knowledge - a belief can be tentative, subject to change with evidence. I believe it will rain tomorrow, but I certainly do not claim to know that it will rain tomorrow, nor is by belief immune to change with new evidence. In the same way, I am an atheist, believing that there are no gods, and an agnostic, acknowledging that I do not, and cannot know.

But now I'm off topic, better stop right there.