299 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No actually.
As someone else put it, the Warden can expresses dibelief in the Maker (which would be agnosticism), not atheism.

You've defined atheism too narrowly.

Theism is a belief.
Atheism is the lack of that belief.

That's now negation works - there's no middle ground.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No actually.
As someone else put it, the Warden can expresses dibelief in the Maker (which would be agnosticism), not atheism.

You've defined atheism too narrowly.

Theism is a belief.
Atheism is the lack of that belief.

That's now negation works - there's no middle ground.

And you are using the broad defintion of atheism which is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. Agnosticim states that the existence of deities is either unknown or unknowable. It does not state that deities do or do not exist. It simply cannot be proven one way or the other.  You want to view it in black and white terms by negation but that is not the case. There are those who just do not know. They neither believe nor disbelieve.

[Fallstar]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No actually.
As someone else put it, the Warden can expresses dibelief in the Maker (which would be agnosticism), not atheism.

You've defined atheism too narrowly.

Theism is a belief.
Atheism is the lack of that belief.

That's now negation works - there's no middle ground.

And you are using the broad defintion of atheism which is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. Agnosticim states that the existence of deities is either unknown or unknowable. It does not state that deities do or do not exist. It simply cannot be proven one way or the other.  You want to view it in black and white terms by negation but that is not the case. There are those who just do not know. They neither believe nor disbelieve.

Agnostics neither believe in or do not believe in a god I agree. Atheism I would define as not believing in a god, ie having a lack of belief in a god. I do not see how your definition is at odds with Sylvius's.

Edit: If you thought that there was some sort of scale going Theism-Agnosticism-Atheism then I can see why you think his black and white negation is incorrect. However that is not the case. There is only Theism-Atheism, Agnosticism by definition is entirely separate of any such relationship.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:35 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No actually.
As someone else put it, the Warden can expresses dibelief in the Maker (which would be agnosticism), not atheism.

You've defined atheism too narrowly.

Theism is a belief.
Atheism is the lack of that belief.

That's now negation works - there's no middle ground.

And you are using the broad defintion of atheism which is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. Agnosticim states that the existence of deities is either unknown or unknowable. It does not state that deities do or do not exist. It simply cannot be proven one way or the other.  You want to view it in black and white terms by negation but that is not the case. There are those who just do not know. They neither believe nor disbelieve.

You're confusing the lack of belief with belief in the lack.  I would argue that agnosticism is a subset of atheism; Lotion was drawing a stark line between the two.

[Icesong]

Page 9 sucked! Let's actually read the thread on page 10.

Wulfram wrote...

Yes, we could have done with a friendlier non-religious answer. Though personally, I think it makes sense for Hawke to be a bit of a jerk at that point - people do that when they're upset.

I don't like it when RPGs decide my character's feelings and the extent to which they feel them. It's, to be topical, a cardinal sin.

Modifié par Icesong, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:48 .

[Ellestor]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No actually.
As someone else put it, the Warden can expresses dibelief in the Maker (which would be agnosticism), not atheism.

You've defined atheism too narrowly.

Theism is a belief.
Atheism is the lack of that belief.

That's now negation works - there's no middle ground.

And you are using the broad defintion of atheism which is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. Agnosticim states that the existence of deities is either unknown or unknowable. It does not state that deities do or do not exist. It simply cannot be proven one way or the other.  You want to view it in black and white terms by negation but that is not the case. There are those who just do not know. They neither believe nor disbelieve.

Knowledge != Belief

Agnosticism isn't some kind of middle-ground between theism and atheism. It's an answer to a totally different question.

Theism and atheism answer ‘Do you believe?’ while gnosticism and agnosticism answer ‘Do you know?’ or ‘Do you believe it is knowable?’

Theist: I have a belief in a deity.
Atheist: I do not have a belief in a deity.

Gnostic: I know whether there is a deity (or believe it is knowable).
Agnostic: I do not know whether there is a deity (or believe it is unknowable).

Everyone is necessarily one of each.

To go further than ‘I do not have a belief in a deity’ and into ‘I believe there is no deity’ isn't simply atheism; and a person who doesn't have a belief one way or the other by definition lacks a belief--they're an atheist.

Modifié par Ellestor, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:43 .

[lx_theo]

Ellestor wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No actually.
As someone else put it, the Warden can expresses dibelief in the Maker (which would be agnosticism), not atheism.

You've defined atheism too narrowly.

Theism is a belief.
Atheism is the lack of that belief.

That's now negation works - there's no middle ground.

And you are using the broad defintion of atheism which is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. Agnosticim states that the existence of deities is either unknown or unknowable. It does not state that deities do or do not exist. It simply cannot be proven one way or the other.  You want to view it in black and white terms by negation but that is not the case. There are those who just do not know. They neither believe nor disbelieve.

Knowledge != Belief

Agnosticism isn't some kind of middle-ground between theism and atheism. It's an answer to a totally different question.

Theism and atheism answer ‘Do you believe?’ while gnosticism and agnosticism answer ‘Do you know?’ or ‘Do you believe it is knowable?’

Theism = I have a belief in a deity
Atheism = I do not have a belief in a deity

Gnosticism = I know whether there is a deity (or believe it is knowable)
Agnosticism = I do not know whether there is a deity (or believe it is unknowable) 

Everyone is necessarily one of each.

To go further than ‘I do not have a belief in a deity’ and into ‘I believe there is no deity’ isn't simply atheism.

Well summed up.

I actually haven't heard the erm, Gnosticism, before.

[Ellestor]

lx_theo wrote...

Well summed up.

I actually haven't heard the erm, Gnosticism, before.

Most people probably haven't, because it's incredibly rare. Most theists and atheists aren't gnostic about it. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who wouldn't admit that they don't know.

It's also troubled by the fact that there was once a Christian movement by the same name, and someone who knows that might not know which gnosticism you mean.  Messy language.

Modifié par Ellestor, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:52 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Gnostic Gospels was a reasonably popular book, as I recall.

[LobselVith8]

bloodmage13 wrote...

I understand that people want to express their personal views in video games but this is ridiculous.

Did you even read the OP? I'm not asking to express my personal views in Dragon Age, because that's impossible. I live on Earth, the story of Dragon Age takes place on the fictional continent of Thedas. In Dragon Age: Origins, the Warden could express atheism by saying that he (or she) didn't believe in the Maker; this is in contrast to Hawke, who explicitly says that someone is with the Maker now at one point in the storyline. Rather than having the developers determine what the protagonist believes in, I think that it would be better to return to how Origins handled it, and leave that to the player.

bloodmage13 wrote...

Bioware is a business. Why would they risk alienating some of their fans by focusing on religion.

I don't believe anyone in the real world is going to be alienated by allowing the protagonist of Dragon Age III to have the same freedom to be an atheist as The Warden had in Origins.

bloodmage13 wrote...

We can argue about religion in real life. I play dragon age to kill things and hump elves ( maybe dwarves in the future).
* full disclosure I am religious

This thread has to do with the protagonist being a potential atheist in Dragon Age III, which means it has nothing to do with real life religion.

[Xilizhra]

Did you even read the OP? I'm not asking to express my personal views in Dragon Age, because that's impossible. I live on Earth, the story of Dragon Age takes place on the fictional continent of Thedas. In Dragon Age: Origins, the Warden could express atheism by saying that he (or she) didn't believe in the Maker; this is in contrast to Hawke, who explicitly says that someone is with the Maker now at one point in the storyline. Rather than having the developers determine what the protagonist believes in, I think that it would be better to return to how Origins handled it, and leave that to the player.

Wait... that is a dialogue choice. Hawke can choose to say something else that doesn't say that. In any case, it's remarkably easy to RP Hawke as just repeating some old line that she may well not really believe in.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Xilizhra wrote...

Did you even read the OP? I'm not asking to express my personal views in Dragon Age, because that's impossible. I live on Earth, the story of Dragon Age takes place on the fictional continent of Thedas. In Dragon Age: Origins, the Warden could express atheism by saying that he (or she) didn't believe in the Maker; this is in contrast to Hawke, who explicitly says that someone is with the Maker now at one point in the storyline. Rather than having the developers determine what the protagonist believes in, I think that it would be better to return to how Origins handled it, and leave that to the player.

Wait... that is a dialogue choice. Hawke can choose to say something else that doesn't say that. In any case, it's remarkably easy to RP Hawke as just repeating some old line that she may well not really believe in.

Not quite.  With DA2's paraphrase system, the player can choose an option that he hopes doesn't invoke the Maker, but he can't actually know until it's too late.

With the paraphrase system in place, it's even more important that none of the options say potentially character-breaking things unless those details are included in the paraphrase.

[MerinTB]

Ellestor wrote...
Theist: I have a belief in a deity.
Atheist: I do not have a belief in a deity.

Gnostic: I know whether there is a deity (or believe it is knowable).
Agnostic: I do not know whether there is a deity (or believe it is unknowable).

Thank you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
You're confusing the lack of belief with belief in the lack.  I would argue that agnosticism is a subset of atheism; Lotion was drawing a stark line between the two.

Actually, what I said was that the Warden can express disbelief in A god (singular). That sez nothing if he does or does not belive in other gods.

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
You're confusing the lack of belief with belief in the lack.  I would argue that agnosticism is a subset of atheism; Lotion was drawing a stark line between the two.

Actually, what I said was that the Warden can express disbelief in A god (singular). That sez nothing if he does or does not belive in other gods.

As someone posted earlier, people who believe in one god, but not others, are atheists to those other gods. As real world examples might get a bit complicated, a Dalish elf who doesn't believe in the Maker can be described as being atheistic towards the Maker - they have a lack of belief in the Maker. The elf can be both theist to his particular god, and atheistic to others. People aren't asking for the ability to be atheists in the general case - well people might want that, but I thought this thread was about the Maker specifically - but are asking why, when we did have the option to be an atheist in this particular case, that option has been removed.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actually, what I said was that the Warden can express disbelief in A god (singular). That sez nothing if he does or does not believe in other gods.

Considering how the Chantry of Andraste doesn't seem to tolerate other religions (as we see with the elven religion being outlawed and the attempts to convert people in other regions), and is focused on spreading to the four corners of Thedas, I don't see how you can argue that it isn't a valid option to express atheism. The only god that the Cousland protagonist has had any exposure to is the Maker (for all we know), and he (or she) can explicitly state that he doesn't believe in the Maker. That indicates that it's a valid option to express atheism.

Apparently, it will never be an option again, and if Hawke is any indication, our protagonist will be forced to be Andrastian instead. From the bad paraphrasing to the auto-lines and the restrictive companion armor that will return in Dragon Age III, it seems like we continue to be losing the things that were available in Origins for our Wardens.

[Realmzmaster]

Actually I am replaying DA2 right now. In Act 1 if you talk Hawke to the Chantry and speak to the Grand Cleric. She welcomes Hawke as a new comer to Kirkwall and notes that he is Fereldan. She then comments on the Blight and how the Maker stop it. Hawke has the option of saying that was not the Maker. He states that the Hero of Fereldan not the Maker stop the Blight.

The Grand Cleric then states that the Maker worked through the Hero to stop the Blight. Hawke elicits a +5 approval from Aveline from this pronouncement.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You're confusing the lack of belief with belief in the lack.  I would argue that agnosticism is a subset of atheism; Lotion was drawing a stark line between the two.

Actually, what I said was that the Warden can express disbelief in A god (singular). That sez nothing if he does or does not belive in other gods.

But when Cousland says "I don't believe in the Maker," that doesn't mean he believes the Maker doesn't exist.  That just means he doesn't believe that the Maker does exist.

[lx_theo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You're confusing the lack of belief with belief in the lack.  I would argue that agnosticism is a subset of atheism; Lotion was drawing a stark line between the two.

Actually, what I said was that the Warden can express disbelief in A god (singular). That sez nothing if he does or does not belive in other gods.

But when Cousland says "I don't believe in the Maker," that doesn't mean he believes the Maker doesn't exist.  That just means he doesn't believe that the Maker does exist.

That's what I like about the line. It's open for interpretation to be whatever you want it to be. It could mean a different religious belief or a more atheistic approach.

[lx_theo]

By the way, I was wondering how people felt about this... So I made a poll.

http://social.biowar...99/polls/36746/

Modifié par lx_theo, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:47 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

lx_theo wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You're confusing the lack of belief with belief in the lack.  I would argue that agnosticism is a subset of atheism; Lotion was drawing a stark line between the two.

Actually, what I said was that the Warden can express disbelief in A god (singular). That sez nothing if he does or does not belive in other gods.

But when Cousland says "I don't believe in the Maker," that doesn't mean he believes the Maker doesn't exist.  That just means he doesn't believe that the Maker does exist.

That's what I like about the line. It's open for interpretation to be whatever you want it to be. It could mean a different religious belief or a more atheistic approach.

As I've said many times before, ambiguity is where the roleplaying happens.

[Corto81]

David Gaider wrote...


If it would really make fans happy, I'll modify my statement to say we'll consider offering the option to express doubt-- when it's appropriate. Meaning, if the issue of faith is directly in question. Otherwise, like I said, it's not really one of the viewpoints we allow for (among the many that we do). And that's as far as I'll give on that point.

Fair enough?

My question is:

Why, in a world filled with magic and impossible events happening every day, is it obligatory to believe there is a god at all?

Why is my character not allowed to believe it's just a really powerful mage or something like that, who ascended above the ordinary people and someone started a religion about them?

My character wouldn't deny that Andraste etc. existed, he just doesn't believe them Gods or whatever, and wouldn't bow or pray to them.

... if you know what I mean?

Being pigeonholed into playing a religious person is not cool.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Leliana: I'm wondering, Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
Morrigan: "Certainly not."

Gaider: "hueghueghuegh what is an atheist anyway it's not clearly defrined."

[esper]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Leliana: I'm wondering, Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
Morrigan: "Certainly not."

Gaider: "hueghueghuegh what is an atheist anyway it's not clearly defrined."

If Morrigan believe in something else she is still not an atheist.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

esper wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Leliana: I'm wondering, Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
Morrigan: "Certainly not."

Gaider: "hueghueghuegh what is an atheist anyway it's not clearly defrined."

If Morrigan believe in something else she is still not an atheist.

Based on her ritual, she apparently believes in the Old Gods

Cousland can express doubt in the maker, Dalish certainly can, Dwarf wardens can believe in the Stone. It seems only City Elves do not express doubt? Not sure about mages either come to think of it

On the Atheist/agnostic question I see it as the following:

Strong theism (Zealot?) - Gnostic Theism
Weak theism (Faith) - Agnostic theism
Strong Atheism - Gnostic Atheist (I know there is no god)
Weak Atheism - Agnostic Atheist (I lack a  belief)

My use of Strong and Weak in no way implies superiority or inferiority of the position.