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[Fisto The Sexbot]

esper wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Leliana: I'm wondering, Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
Morrigan: "Certainly not."

Gaider: "hueghueghuegh what is an atheist anyway it's not clearly defrined."

If Morrigan believe in something else she is still not an atheist.

She insults the very notion of putting 'faith' into something that cannot be tested ("How quickly those without answers invoke that word.") The only other religions that we know of don't really tend to catch on to humans, so unless she harbors some sort of New Age medieval beliefs... not that the latter would make any more sense than her simply being atheist.

[Big I]

Granted I'm no expert on medieval theology, but it seems odd that DG says that everyone in Thedas believes in something.


So all those Circle mages who reject the Chantry and the Templars still believe in the Maker? Even the elven ones? And I suppose this also applies to blood mages and apostates? No city elf has ever raged against the Maker as a figment meant to oppress his people, no casteless has ever said the Ancestors aren't real? No Dalish has ever wondered if their absent gods ever existed at all?


That's not to mention all the people in game who are definitely irreligious. Morrigan derides belief in religion, Sten doesn't care because everyone is equally wrong, Aveline just shrugs, and Tallis rejected the Tevinter Chantry.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

esper wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Leliana: I'm wondering, Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
Morrigan: "Certainly not."

Gaider: "hueghueghuegh what is an atheist anyway it's not clearly defrined."

If Morrigan believe in something else she is still not an atheist.

She insults the very notion of putting 'faith' into something that cannot be tested ("How quickly those without answers invoke that word.") The only other religions that we know of don't really tend to catch on to humans, so unless she harbors some sort of New Age medieval beliefs... not that the latter would make any more sense than her simply being atheist.

She believes in the old gods.

End of story.

Other characters that don't believe in The Maker? Who said they disbelieve in a god though or that they're not agnostics or deists? 

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas...

 

 

Well after all the games that bash religion I thoroughly support this David Gaider!

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 17 août 2012 - 04:11 .

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

esper wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Leliana: I'm wondering, Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
Morrigan: "Certainly not."

Gaider: "hueghueghuegh what is an atheist anyway it's not clearly defrined."

If Morrigan believe in something else she is still not an atheist.

She insults the very notion of putting 'faith' into something that cannot be tested ("How quickly those without answers invoke that word.") The only other religions that we know of don't really tend to catch on to humans, so unless she harbors some sort of New Age medieval beliefs... not that the latter would make any more sense than her simply being atheist.

She believes in the old gods.

End of story.

Other characters that don't believe in The Maker? Who said they disbelieve in a god though or that they're not agnostics or deists? 

" So, you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?"

"It has been bothering you, I see."

Her belief that the Old Gods will return (or whatever, I don't pay much attention to Dragon Age anymore) were only much later after the exchange between Leliana/Morrigan.

"Other characters that don't believe in The Maker? Who said they disbelieve in a god though or that they're not agnostics or deists?"

And similarly, how would you decide that a character is not an atheist if somehow "I don't believe in the Maker" (which would most closely resemble 'weak atheism') is not enough to describe said character's faith?

This is so much bs considering even DnD let you play as someone without faith, where gods are clearly real. 

Modifié par Fisto The Sexbot, 17 août 2012 - 07:27 .

[Henioo]

The autodialogue. The few times Hawke said something I wouldn't I just pretended he didn't.

But it totally killed the replayability value for me.

I rememeber fondly as my dwarf commoner would mock the puny humans and their beliefs. No mocking for Hawke, unfortunately.

Modifié par Henioo, 17 août 2012 - 07:50 .

[Cendrigal]

As an atheist, I did indeed choose those options for my Warden. RPGs - for me, anyways - are all about putting myself in the main character's shoes. So I did.

As for Hawke's "forced" Andrastian beliefs - I honestly didn't pick up on it.

Because he/she says "By the Maker!" every once in a while? Meh.

I say "Jesus Christ!" and "Oh my God!" often, as do most atheist/agnostic friends I know.. Doesn't make me a Christian.

...Though, perhaps it's those damned Vatican Warlocks subliminally indoctrinating us. /tinfoilhat.

Back on point - though.. Unless it blatantly tells you otherwise, imprint whatever you wish on your character. That's what games like these are for.

Modifié par Cendrigal, 18 août 2012 - 02:53 .

[Wrathion]

Cendrigal wrote...

As an atheist, I did indeed choose those options for my Warden. RPGs - for me, anyways - are all about putting myself in the main character's shoes. So I did.

As for Hawke's "forced" Andrastian beliefs - I honestly didn't pick up on it.

Because he/she says "By the Maker!" every once in a while? Meh.

I say "Jesus Christ!" and "Oh my God!" often, as do most atheist/agnostic friends I know.. Doesn't make me a Christian.

...Though, perhaps it's those damned Vatican Warlocks subliminally indoctrinating us. /tinfoilhat.

Back on point - though.. Unless it blatantly tells you otherwise, imprint whatever you wish on your character. That's what games like these are for.

No, because when Hawke kills someone he goes like "May the Maker guide you" I bet you say something similiar in real life, yes. Or maybe not because you don't go around killing bandits. It sounds more like something Sebastian would say, and Sebastian happens to be.......................

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 18 août 2012 - 04:04 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

No, because when Hawke kills someone he goes like "May the Maker guide you" I bet you say something similiar in real life, yes. Or maybe not because you don't go around killing bandits. It sounds more like something Sebastian would say, and Sebastian happens to be.......................

****Slight spoilers here....

There's a conversation that you can have with Aveline in which Wesley is discussed - I don't recall the act, and I couldn't find the scene on youtube, but in it, Aveline gives the impression (at least to me - she may not have said it outright) that she is not much of a believer. She talks about Wesley either being with the Maker, or not (poor paraphrasing). There really wasn't much on her part within that conversation that showed a strong faith in the Maker and all things related to him - it was more an acknowledgement of Wesley's faith.

The thing is, Aveline brings up the Maker within the game - within curses, utterances of exasperation, etc. "Maker" is part of her lexicon because it's a familiar name/entity/part of society, though not necessarily one she invests dedication to. She has said "Maker, take you" and even "Maker knows I could use more satisfying work." If she isn't following the ways of the faith, she is then tapping into a familiar social and cultural norm with language.

It's much like someone who doesn't necessarily believe in a specific god, or any god perhaps, saying "god-d**n you" when upset. So even for Hawke to say "May the Maker guide you," it could be a curse, something spat upon your enemy - let your god take you and do whatever, because I'm quite done with you (as I have run you through), etc. 

And really, maybe it's all tone and situation. If Hawke were to be seen standing over a fallen foe and lowering his/her head, then saying "May the Maker guide you," that might be akin to a prayer. But screaming it in battle as you're bloodying your sword strikes me more like a curse or a mockery.

Perspective is, of course, going to vary for the player. But I think there is enough flexibility in how the Maker is used in conversation and dialogue to allow the player to role-play Hawke's faith, or lack of it, as he/she sees fit.

[TEWR]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So even for Hawke to say "May the Maker guide you," it could be a curse, something spat upon your enemy - let your god take you and do whatever, because I'm quite done with you (as I have run you through), etc.

And really, maybe it's all tone and situation. If Hawke were to be seen standing over a fallen foe and lowering his/her head, then saying "May the Maker guide you," that might be akin to a prayer. But screaming it in battle as you're bloodying your sword strikes me more like a curse or a mockery.

As you said, it's all dependant on the tone and the situation. However, I don't think you can so easily write off Hawke's "May the Maker guide you" comment as being just an insult said in the heat of battle.

Yes he's fighting, but just how he says it is more important then where he's saying it. In that, even if he's saying it during battle, if it doesn't carry enough weight in its tone to lean towards either direction -- like it sounds more faithful then neutral -- then it becomes more faithful as a result.

IMO. Admittedly, us PS3 users never got to hear Hawke's battle cries, for whatever reason. So how he actually says his diplomatic dialogue in battle is something I've never heard.

[Wulfram]

If you listen to there's a bunch of Maker references and most of them don't particularly say Hawke's religious, but I think the "may the maker guide you" is one which it's hard to take any other way.

[Renmiri1]

Yet she can say it is all BS when she talks to Elthina,

Modifié par Renmiri1, 18 août 2012 - 11:13 .

[Renmiri1]

Huh ? Where did BW declare that ?

[Emzamination]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Huh ? Where did BW declare that ?

This

In origins, my human wardens had the dialogue options to express their distaste for the maker and even outright deny believing in him during the noble origin.

[Renmiri1]

Read it again.. Individuals question it. Anders does, very loudly, particularly during Legacy. So does Merril. What he is saying is that the politcal and polite society did not. It was considered rude and heretic to question it. There was no "Atheists" faction from mages, not even the ones wanting to break from the Chantry dare go against the Maker myth.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 18 août 2012 - 11:37 .

[Wulfram]

Filament wrote...

I thought all this debate was a little pointless now that Hawke (and the human wardens) officially believes in the Maker.

Meh, death of the author and all that.  What's in the game matters.  What the creators of the game say on the forums about the game is interesting trivia at best.

(the name of that term always seems a bit rude when posting somewhere the author might read)

Modifié par Wulfram, 18 août 2012 - 11:50 .

[Emzamination]

Filament wrote...

Individuals who aren't the Warden or Hawke.

And Anders doesn't question the Maker, he questions the Chantry. Merrill isn't an atheist, she believes in the elven Pantheon.

Disingenious Assertion

The human noble can deny Mother mallol's request for prayer by stating they don't believe in the maker

Any warden can question the existence of the maker through leliana's dialogue (Ie:) "I don't want your maker looking in on me" "How do you even know the maker exist?"

Modifié par Emzamination, 18 août 2012 - 11:53 .

[Emzamination]

Filament wrote...


I guess that does seem to directly contradict what David Gaider said.

 can't expect a writer to remember every line but to say it was never Implemented in origins is disingenious

Modifié par Emzamination, 19 août 2012 - 12:11 .

[Icesong]

Filament wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
I find this an absured response. Are you seriously suggesting that nobody in Thedas has ever questioned the existence of the Maker?

Among humanity, outside of the individual that would be correct. It's not a common thing. And, regardless, it's not an option we provided in DAO or will provide in the future.

He was mistaken and admitted it later.

[1Nosphorus1]

Dialogue wheel and auto-dialogue greatly reduce the amount of input you have over your own character, I'm even a disliker of voiced protagonists.

The option should be in there, we should be allowed to mould the character the way we want rather than have a set character with limited options on how to play them (and therefore immerse yourself). I've had a Dwarf who believed in his ancestors, and an Elf Mage who begun as an atheist and slowly became more religious as events unfolded (Andraste's ashes)