299 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

Filament wrote...

Oh, but you can expect me to, huh?

Over most

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Dialogue wheel and auto-dialogue
greatly reduce the amount of input you have over your own character, I'm
even a disliker of voiced protagonists.

The option should be in
there, we should be allowed to mould the character the way we want
rather than have a set character with limited options on how to play
them (and therefore immerse yourself). I've had a Dwarf who believed in
his ancestors, and an Elf Mage who begun as an atheist and slowly became
more religious as events unfolded (Andraste's ashes)

I agree, I don't mind having no control over events happening outside my character like leliana's mysterious rebirth and the whole morrigan soap but I don't want a religion whose ethics and morals I don't agree with choked down my throat just so I'm forced to pick a side in this war.It seems if you don't believe in the maker, you auto default to being an old god worshipper.

[Icesong]

Filament wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

 can't expect a writer to remember every line but to say it was never Implemented in origins is disingenious

Oh, but you can expect me to, huh?

Icesong wrote...

He was mistaken and admitted it later.

"Disingenuous," he said he was mistaken if said paraphrase was accurate but regardless, it didn't change his intent in the writing of the character or any future character going forward that atheism is not an option that will be made explicitly available.

I don't see how disingenuous is applicable. It was just a stupid and laughable thing to say.

His intent doesn't really matter assuming he even wrote those lines. I'm not arguing dead author here because dead author doesn't apply. Word of God prevails in DA. And his word was that our characters can be atheists even if it isn't common.

Also, he was, seemingly, using a definition of atheism that was too limited.

But I see where you said you don't really appreciate "roleplaying in the gaps", so to speak. I get why losing the ability to explicitly express atheism would hurt. Perhaps you should continue to hold out hope? After all, if DG can't even remember what it was like in DAO how can he really say it won't come back?

Modifié par Icesong, 19 août 2012 - 01:20 .

[Ianamus]

There do not need to be dialogue options that outright say "I don't believe in the maker" or words to that effect (unless your playing a Dwarf/Dalish and worshipping the Maker would make no sense) but neither do there need to be dialogue options that say "I believe entriely in the maker's existence", or words to that effect. It should just be kept ambiguous.

Modifié par EJ107, 19 août 2012 - 01:46 .

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Leliana: I'm wondering, Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
Morrigan: "Certainly not."

Gaider: "hueghueghuegh what is an atheist anyway it's not clearly defrined."

If Morrigan believe in something else she is still not an atheist.

Actually, Morrigan tells Leliana that she doesn't believe in a higher power, in addition to not believing in the Maker. She also dismisses Leliana's suggestion of magic and spirits proving there's an intelligent design to life. Gaider's statement that atheism doesn't exist simply doesn't ring true.

Shinian2 wrote...

Based on her ritual, she apparently believes in the Old Gods

Based on what she explicitly said, Morrigan's argument for the dark ritual had nothing to do with seeing the Old God as a deity, but preserving it from extinction (and saving The Warden if there was a romance).

[Mazebook]

I just headconnon that my Hawk is to afraid to come out as an atheist. He lives a sad double life where he has to pretend to be something he is not.

[Wulfram]

Well, Morrigan clearly believes in the Tevinter Old Gods.

[Icesong]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, Morrigan clearly believes in the Tevinter Old Gods.

So does the Chantry and almost everyone else.

They also believe in the sky and the earth beneath their feet. Or above, as it might be.

Modifié par Icesong, 19 août 2012 - 10:13 .

[1Nosphorus1]

Sounds like we're being tunnelled into a specific mindset...

[Ianamus]

Icesong wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, Morrigan clearly believes in the Tevinter Old Gods.

So does the Chantry and almost everyone else.

They also believe in the sky and the earth beneath their feet. Or above, as it might be.

Some definitions I've taken from the internet:

Deity: A deity is a being, natural, supernatural or preternatural, with superhuman powers or qualities, and who may be thought of as holy, divine or sacred.

Atheism: Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities 

Actually existing does not make the old gods any less powerful, and they are worshipped by some, so according to these difinitions they are deities and therefore Morrigan is not an Atheist. Athism is a real life concept and makes no sense in a setting where supernatural creatures actually exist. Being aware of the existence of supernatural creatures but refusing to worship them as gods is not Atheism, although I'm not certain what it would be classified as. 

Modifié par EJ107, 19 août 2012 - 02:03 .

[Icesong]

If the bar for deification is some person merely thinking something is holy then you just eliminated atheists in the real world as well. Superbly done.

And again, what's supernatural to us isn't necessarily supernatural to denizens of fantasy settings.

I won't even bother mentioning that that definition of atheism isn't the only one out there. Unless I just did. It's hard to keep track.

[Hatchetman77]

Actually this brings up something that I hope doesn't get thrown out with the bath water for DA3.  I was a huge fan of the game tracking your responses and assigning a personality with slighty different results because of it.  It's a way to gain control over your voiced protagonist and give them the personality you want.  I want this to be expanded upon in future games.  What bothered me about it was that it did not seem to track different choices.  Like when Isabella came up to me in the bar I would tell her to **** off even though all of my responses to her throughout the game were the sarcastic ones (to everyone else I was a jerk though, but to Isabella I was sarcastic).  I think the game should have tracked that and known to pick the sarcastic option for Isabella instead of the rude one.

Now, for your concern with atheism, what if the game tracked athiest responses which would pay off later in conversations with religious figures or religious people?  So a cutscene with an atheist protagonist and a religious figure would play out differently than a cutscene with a religious protagonist and a religious leader.  We can also mix and match, where an athiest protagonist who also picked "good" choices would be respectful of the difference while the athiest protagonist who picked "evil" choices may be condescending and rude to that same religious figure.  This may mean only a few additional lines of dialouge but I think it would add to the game immensely.

[HiddenInTheLight]

This position makes sense if the player character is going to be one where a lack of belief would be very unlikely to occur, like if they worked for the chantry in some way (perhaps as an inquisitor?). The subsequent statements about the ability to express doubt (but not outright disbelief) would play into this perfectly if their intent was to potentially (depending on the player's choice) have the character begin to lose faith (perhaps just in the chantry rather than the maker) as a result of the events that take place over the course of the game.

If that is what they are planning then these decisions/statements are much more understandable, and in my opinion this makes a lot more sense than than simply removing a previously-available choice for no reason.

[TEWR]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So even for Hawke to say "May the Maker guide you," it could be a curse, something spat upon your enemy - let your god take you and do whatever, because I'm quite done with you (as I have run you through), etc.

And really, maybe it's all tone and situation. If Hawke were to be seen standing over a fallen foe and lowering his/her head, then saying "May the Maker guide you," that might be akin to a prayer. But screaming it in battle as you're bloodying your sword strikes me more like a curse or a mockery.

As you said, it's all dependant on the tone and the situation. However, I don't think you can so easily write off Hawke's "May the Maker guide you" comment as being just an insult said in the heat of battle.

Yes he's fighting, but just how he says it is more important then where he's saying it. In that, even if he's saying it during battle, if it doesn't carry enough weight in its tone to lean towards either direction -- like it sounds more faithful then neutral -- then it becomes more faithful as a result.

IMO. Admittedly, us PS3 users never got to hear Hawke's battle cries, for whatever reason. So how he actually says his diplomatic dialogue in battle is something I've never heard.

To quote myself and to add further evidence to how Hawke is someone who will always believe in the Maker no matter what, when you save Feynriel in Act 2 Hawke's response is "May the Maker guide your path, Feynriel". Feynriel, however, is a believer in the Elven Pantheon, as he made clear in Act 1 to Hawke when Hawke saved him.

[BatmanPWNS]

Lol, usually threads in video games talk about whether a game/character should have religion. Never thought I'd see a thread about a game/character being athiest.

Modifié par BatmanPWNS, 26 août 2012 - 10:44 .

[tishyw]

Religion is dangerous ground to walk on and Bioware needs to be careful, they don't need yet another game that alienates half their fan base.
Neutrality is where they need to aim for the PC's religion, being forced to play someone who's religiously devout will be as offensive to me as being force to play an athiest would be to someone who's religious.

[Plaintiff]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, Morrigan clearly believes in the Tevinter Old Gods.

That doesn't follow, I'm afraid.

She can't "believe" in the Old Gods, nobody can. Their existence is established fact, because we see them appear as Archdemons.

But just because Morrigan acknowledges their existence doesn't mean she supports the idea that they are literal deities (if Thedas even has the same concept of 'deities' that we do).

To use a contemporary example; people can believe that a man called Jesus lived a long time ago, but they don't have to believe that he was the literal son of God.

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So even for Hawke to say "May the Maker guide you," it could be a curse, something spat upon your enemy - let your god take you and do whatever, because I'm quite done with you (as I have run you through), etc.

And really, maybe it's all tone and situation. If Hawke were to be seen standing over a fallen foe and lowering his/her head, then saying "May the Maker guide you," that might be akin to a prayer. But screaming it in battle as you're bloodying your sword strikes me more like a curse or a mockery.

As you said, it's all dependant on the tone and the situation. However, I don't think you can so easily write off Hawke's "May the Maker guide you" comment as being just an insult said in the heat of battle.

Yes he's fighting, but just how he says it is more important then where he's saying it. In that, even if he's saying it during battle, if it doesn't carry enough weight in its tone to lean towards either direction -- like it sounds more faithful then neutral -- then it becomes more faithful as a result.

IMO. Admittedly, us PS3 users never got to hear Hawke's battle cries, for whatever reason. So how he actually says his diplomatic dialogue in battle is something I've never heard.

To quote myself and to add further evidence to how Hawke is someone who will always believe in the Maker no matter what, when you save Feynriel in Act 2 Hawke's response is "May the Maker guide your path, Feynriel". Feynriel, however, is a believer in the Elven Pantheon, as he made clear in Act 1 to Hawke when Hawke saved him.

Well, that's just a saying, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. He's basically just wishing Feynriel good luck.

When you sneeze and people say "bless you", it doesn't mean they're literally blessing you, or that they believe in a deity and want it to bless you. It's just a thing people say. When something bad happens and I say "Oh god", or "Damn it!", it doesn't make me religious.

The fact is that religion, particularly Christian religion, is so ingrained in our society that these phrases and others like them are commonly used by everyone, regardles of personal beliefs or affiliations. It could easily be the same in Thedas, where the dominant religion is not only widespread but a major political power.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well, that's just a saying, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. He's basically just wishing Feynriel good luck..

Sure, it could be the Thedosian equivalent of saying Godspeed -- and given the context of the discussion where it happens, it certainly is. But given how there are other instances of Hawke invoking the Maker -- some leaning more towards being faithful then neutral in how they're taken -- then it seems less like it can be taken as simply a gesture of good luck and more like that and a belief that the Maker will help Feynriel in his endeavors. This is also due to how in Thedas, people -- notably Templars -- believe that the Maker does in fact guide people on their paths.

Part of this stems from the awful paraphrasing, where the option chosen in the instance I referred to -- "I will" when Feynriel asks you to tell his mother about the journey he's taking -- leads to Hawke invoking the Maker in the Godspeed equivalent. There's no real indication that you'll get such a thing to be said. If the paraphrase had simply said "Good luck", that'd be another thing, because then it'd clearly be a Godspeed equivalent. But to have it say "I will" and then invoke the Maker seemed... deceptive.

And given how David Gaider said that everyone believes in some deity and that atheistic tendencies don't exist in Thedas.... well, then there is no possible level of ambiguity to be taken from it. It is both the Godspeed equivalent and a religious sentiment.

Should that stop roleplaying it as simply being a phrase of good luck towards the traveler? No, but I think there is a mentality present in the fans that once a dev says something remotely WordofGod-esque it then becomes difficult to see it otherwise.

Of course, I could just be going off on something where I'm eating my own foot. Chalk it up to me being tired really and not having enough brainpower today to think that one particular instance through entirely before posting about it.

Plaintiff wrote...

When you sneeze and people say "bless you", it doesn't mean they're literally blessing you, or that they believe in a deity and want it to bless you. It's just a thing people say. When something bad happens and I say "Oh god", or "Damn it!", it doesn't make me religious.

Well, historically during the outbreak of the bubonic plague Pope Gregory I ordered unending prayer and blessings to be done and sneezing was thought to be an early symptom of the plague. So the phrase "God bless you" was used in that sense long ago.

It doesn't hold that meaning nowadays, but still. It's not like it never had such a significance. And if that phrase had a more religious significance in ancient times then it does today, then so too could "May the Maker guide your path" where it's used in the religious sense.

Plaintiff wrote...

The fact is that religion, particularly Christian religion, is so ingrained in our society that these phrases and others like them are commonly used by everyone, regardles of personal beliefs or affiliations. It could easily be the same in Thedas, where the dominant religion is not only widespread but a major political power

I wouldn't say it's so easily possible for the religious connotations to not be present, for a few reasons. Since the DA team has often drawn parallels and comparisons to Middle Age Earth in why stuff is as it is in Thedas and Gaider's gone on record to say that everyone in Thedas apparently believes in some sort of deity-like religion -- regardless of prior examples saying otherwise -- then it becomes apparent that Hawke is using the phrase religiously as well as symbolically.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 août 2012 - 04:01 .

[ray.mitch7410]

David Gaider wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
I find this an absured response. Are you seriously suggesting that nobody in Thedas has ever questioned the existence of the Maker?

Among humanity, outside of the individual that would be correct. It's not a common thing. And, regardless, it's not an option we provided in DAO or will provide in the future.

Hahaha, are you kidding me?! Not an option you provided in DAO? Did you even play the ****ing game? Your character can be an outspoken atheist RIGHT AT THE START if you're a human noble, and as early as Ostagar with everyone else. That's a fact, and you're just flat out wrong.

Edit: Or if you want to get technical they can profess a disbelief for the specific deity of the chantry. However, it's really not an unfair assumption that your character doesn't believe in any of the other equally fanciful deities...

Modifié par ray.mitch7410, 30 août 2012 - 03:37 .

[ray.mitch7410]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

wsandista wrote...

That means they believe in the Maker, not that the Maker exists. There still isn't any proof that the Maker exists or doesn't exist.

Still doesn't matter.  The characters believe.  Still doesn't make it a central question of the game world.  Now if future games put the qunari and their filthy slave-faith in a more direct conflict with the Chantry, then the Maker's existance will be more of a central question.  But in DAO and DA2, the Maker's existance hasn't been a central question.

I agree that it's not a central issue, but you're wrong about all the characters believing in the maker...

[Major Crackhead]

While there's no option to be an "Atheist" or whatever in DAII. Hawke never really says "I BELIEVE IN THE MAKER AND THOSE THAT DON'T ARE HEATHENS!!!!11111oneone!". So it's certainly possible your Hawke could be Agnostic or something.

As for DAO. I personally viewed my two Chantry hating characters as "Agnostic Atheists", similar to myself. They did not necessarily doubt the existence of The Maker, but didn't exactly believe his existence with a 100% certainty (especially when you consider the fact of all the Elven gods and that the Dwarves and Qunari have vastly different spiritual beliefs, meaning even if there was a god was it really "The Maker"?).

And given how David Gaider said that everyone believes in some deity and that atheistic tendencies don't exist in Thedas....

I hate editing my posts, but unless what David Gaider said was interpretered the wrong way, that is completely wrong. Lore states that the Qunari do not have deities. So Atheistic tendencies do exist in Thedas, even if they do come with some crazy fundamentalistic philosophy (aka "The Qun").

Modifié par EvilCecil4th, 19 septembre 2012 - 07:43 .

[th3warr1or]

MichaelStuart wrote...

I agree that being able to choose your beliefs, is a must for Dragon Age 3.

Maaras shokra. Anaan esaam Qun.

Modifié par th3warr1or, 24 janvier 2014 - 01:10 .

[th3warr1or]

I hate editing my posts, but unless what David Gaider said was interpretered the wrong way, that is completely wrong. Lore states that the Qunari do not have deities. So Atheistic tendencies do exist in Thedas, even if they do come with some crazy fundamentalistic philosophy (aka "The Qun").

Some Buddhist sects don't have deities either, and don't believe in a creator. Yet they wouldn't be described as atheists per se.

[DarthGizka]

The term "atheist" derives its present-day meaning mostly from the Abrahamic monotheisms, and in particular from the derivates of the messianic cult invented by Saul of Tarsus. Even those people who declare themselves to be atheists usually do so expressly in opposition to one of the Abrahamic creeds, because the term wouldn't make any sense otherwise (God or Allah or The Maker being only one among many thousands of mythical beings that they do not believe in).

If you asked Morrigan whether she's an atheist she would be baffled, because the only characters for whom to term isn't utter nonsense are Leliana and the failed templar (because they know that they are supposed to believe in The One True God and so they are the only ones for whom not doing so might be a problem worth talking about). Others, like Wynne, probably only know that they don't believe the Chantry claptrap but still tend to use the dominant Chantry terminology and concepts to express their thoughts on the topic, if they think about it at all.

The so-called Old Gods do not really map onto the theist/deist/atheist/agnostic spectrum, at least not in the usual sense; the dictionary definitions do not help here unless you want to call Slothy, Kitty and Ser Cauthrien gods as well just percause they have some superhuman abilities. Or the saurian in the mountains above Haven, if you demand that there be some believers in the picture.

In Origins I found the creed of the dwarves particularly refreshing, since in games like this you rarely find anything that isn't a rehash of one particular monotheism. (e.g. Maker/Chantry). The way the dwarven culture was intertwined with beliefs around the Stone, ancestors and paragons gave it an unparalleled depth and authenticity; really amazing.

I also liked the banter between Leliana and Morrigan on the topic of The Maker; the voice actors - Leliana's in particular - did outstanding work here and made it sound real.

I concur with all who said that the player should not be forced to profess belief in any creed in particular. As long as that is possible there would be no need for special 'atheist' options (which would only make very limited sense anyway, see above).

Modifié par DarthGizka, 24 janvier 2014 - 03:10 .