299 réponses à ce sujet

[Dasher1010]

I approve of this just as I approve of the option to say that you're a human who believes in the Elven gods/the Qun.

[WotanAnubis]

Dasher1010 wrote...

I approve of this just as I approve of the option to say that you're a human who believes in the Elven gods/the Qun.

The Qun I could get behind. But the Dalish don't seem particularly interested in converting people who are not elves, so it'd be kinda weird for a human to believe in the truth of the Creators.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I'll only approve of this if there are also dialogue options to claim you're a follower of the Qun, a follower of the elven Creators, a follow of the Forgotten/Forbidden Ones, a dragon worshipper, demon worshipper, spirit worshipper, Maker worshipper, Old God worshipper, Andrastian, orthodox Andrastian, charismatic Andrastian, evangelical Andrastian, Andraste's Witness, and Holy Believer of the Risen Yeast.

Seriously though, I doubt Hawke's 'with the Maker' line is meant to be any more religious than a 'bless you' if someone sneezes*. Call it an attempt at comfort or a social courtesy that is the general norm, but don't claim that the intention is making your character religious.

*not that certain people don't go ape-crap insane if that's said to them...

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:50 .

[Cultist]

I support this, but I would be satisfied even with nihilistic options. Cast down the Qun, the Chantry, the elven idols and dwarven ancestors.
Burn and pillage their temples, desecrate their altars! That's the way!

[Icesong]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


Seriously though, I doubt Hawke's 'with the Maker' line is meant to be any more religious than a 'bless you' if someone sneezes*. Call it an attempt at comfort or a social courtesy that is the general norm, but don't claim that the intention is making your character religious.

I only know the one instance with Merill that "with the Maker" is said, and If there was a way to rationalize it I would've found it. Hawke has dozens of other lines that incorporate "Maker" that aren't necessarily religious. This isn't one of them. Who would Hawke be comforting? Herself? With something she doesn't believe? Social etiquette? I'm not sure what social norms would dictate that but I'm sure they go out the window when the conversation is with a Dalish elf. Who also happens to be your lover so presumably the social facade could be dropped in the privacy of your bedroom.

[Flamingdropbear]

While I agree that there should be an atheist option, I would love to see more evidence that relegions other than the Chantry have, for want of a better term, veracity.
The Ashes of Andraste and it's Gaunlet, as well as bits and pieces through out the games, show that there is obviously some power that is worshiped as the maker. However neither the Dwarves Ancestors nor the Dalsih Creators seem to have any power over the world.

[Wulfram]

Well, the Tevinter Old Gods seem to have power.

The Elvish gods are sealed away by Fen'Harel

[Realmzmaster]

The dwarves revere their ancestors. They do not worship them. All dwarves return to the stone. The Elvish gods have been seal away. The Kossith follow the Qun. No god need apply. The religions of the other countries may be revealed in time.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Icesong wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


Seriously though, I doubt Hawke's 'with the Maker' line is meant to be any more religious than a 'bless you' if someone sneezes*. Call it an attempt at comfort or a social courtesy that is the general norm, but don't claim that the intention is making your character religious.

I only know the one instance with Merill that "with the Maker" is said, and If there was a way to rationalize it I would've found it. Hawke has dozens of other lines that incorporate "Maker" that aren't necessarily religious. This isn't one of them. Who would Hawke be comforting? Herself? With something she doesn't believe? Social etiquette? I'm not sure what social norms would dictate that but I'm sure they go out the window when the conversation is with a Dalish elf. Who also happens to be your lover so presumably the social facade could be dropped in the privacy of your bedroom.

a) Didn't think of substituting 'Maker' for something Dalish. Basic faux pas on Hawke's part. Happens to everyone.
Thought it would be ludicrous to presume using 'Creators' when she has no idea if dead elves go to some Dalish heaven with their gods,
c) Thought it would be cruel to say 'Well, dead elves are screwed anyway with their gods locked up, and doubly screwed if they're not buried with a cedar branch to fend of the ravens.'
d) Knows the elves have an entire pantheon, so saying 'With the Creators' might be rather stupid, in context.
d) Is subtly trying to nudge Merrill towards the Maker.
e) '...is in a better place' is even more patronising.

'With the Maker' is intended as a comforting nothing, like 'there there'. If people are going to deliberately take offense at the words instead of their intent, per the context of the dialogue, well, of course you're not going to "rationalise" it.

The paraphrase system has nothing to do with choosing your own words anymore, just basic intent and delivery. Unless the NPC takes offense at the words, or directly questions them, you can ignore them or substitute your own.

[Toki]

Well I'm a "hard-core" atheist and I say "oh my God" and "God dammit" allot. It's just being brought up around it whether or not you believe it.

[Icesong]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

a) Didn't think of substituting 'Maker' for something Dalish. Basic faux pas on Hawke's part. Happens to everyone.
Thought it would be ludicrous to presume using 'Creators' when she has no idea if dead elves go to some Dalish heaven with their gods,
c) Thought it would be cruel to say 'Well, dead elves are screwed anyway with their gods locked up, and doubly screwed if they're not buried with a cedar branch to fend of the ravens.'
d) Knows the elves have an entire pantheon, so saying 'With the Creators' might be rather stupid, in context.
d) Is subtly trying to nudge Merrill towards the Maker.
e) '...is in a better place' is even more patronising.

Some of these are still religious, and the others, see below.

'With the Maker' is intended as a comforting nothing, like 'there there'. If people are going to deliberately take offense at the words instead of their intent, per the context of the dialogue, well, of course you're not going to "rationalise" it.

You're talking to me about the context of the dialogue but it really seems like you haven't seen the scene. You don't say "there, there" to yourself. Hawke isn't comforting Merrill; she isn't comforting anyone. She's responding to Merill saying "she's in a better place" by saying "she's with the Maker" when talking about the death of Leandra. No comfort, no social pretense, no way around it.

The paraphrase system has nothing to do with choosing your own words anymore, just basic intent and delivery. Unless the NPC takes offense at the words, or directly questions them, you can ignore them or substitute your own.

Merrill does directly question it by suggesting she's with Falon'Din instead.

Modifié par Icesong, 04 juillet 2012 - 11:53 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Icesong wrote...

You're talking to me about the context of the dialogue but it really seems like you haven't seen the scene. You don't say "there, there" to yourself. Hawke isn't comforting Merrill; she isn't comforting anyone. She's responding to Merill saying "she's in a better place" by saying "she's with the Maker" when talking about the death of Leandra. No comfort, no social pretense, no way around it.

You're right, I haven't seen the scene. I presumed it was in response to Marethari's death or something (sorry!).

And eeehhhh, ok, yeah, I can see why that would be annoying. But it's no secret I despise the paraphrases system for putting words into your PC's mouth like this. About all I can do is "I substitute the game's interpretation of what Hawke says for what I say she says," because it looks like the system aint gonna change.

The paraphrase system has nothing to do with choosing your own words anymore, just basic intent and delivery. Unless the NPC takes offense at the words, or directly questions them, you can ignore them or substitute your own.

Merrill does directly question it by suggesting she's with Falon'Din instead.

Hah. But you could still change the original somewhat and have that make contextual sense, IMO.

Not that it makes the scene any less irritating.

[David Gaider]

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

[King Cousland]

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas. Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO-- possibly it's the same kind of interpretation as them thinking Hawke was "forced" into being a devout believer. Either way, it's not really an option we intend to include.

I find this an absured response. Are you seriously suggesting that nobody in Thedas has ever questioned the existence of the Maker? In fact, I'm even more puzzled by your assertion when we look at characters like Morrigan, or even the Qunari, who follow a very powerful atheistic doctrine. Even Aveline, who's likely an agnostic, brings what you say into question. And let's not forget that The Warden could tell Justice in no uncertain terms that he did not believe in the Maker. 

Modifié par harkness72, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:05 .

[David Gaider]

harkness72 wrote...
I find this an absured response. Are you seriously suggesting that nobody in Thedas has ever questioned the existence of the Maker?

Among humanity, outside of the individual that would be correct. It's not a common thing. And, regardless, it's not an option we provided in DAO or will provide in the future.

[MichaelStuart]

David Gaider wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
I find this an absured response. Are you seriously suggesting that nobody in Thedas has ever questioned the existence of the Maker?

Among humanity, outside of the individual that would be correct. It's not a common thing. And, regardless, it's not an option we provided in DAO or will provide in the future.

Why?

[Wulfram]

David Gaider wrote...

Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

[David Gaider]

Wulfram wrote...
Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again.

[DiebytheSword]

I rather like the touch in DAO and ME1 to state where YOUR protagonist stands, that kind of thing makes everyone a bit happier.

Still, in DAO, you can actually see things attached to the religion (the Black City, Andraste's ashes, the Blight and the Darkspawn) so there are actually quite a few reasons to believe in the tale, as opposed to IRL, where people have no opportunity to see legendary relics or miracles of the various faiths.

[Fast Jimmy]

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again.

"Wooo-ooooh... dream killer... I believe you can get me through the niiiiight...."

I never felt that religion was forced down my throat either way with the DA series. Even when religious references were made, they seemed more rote, memorized sayings than true professions of faith. Like someone saying "Bless you" when someone else sneezes IRL.

[withneelandi]

David Gaider wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
I find this an absured response. Are you seriously suggesting that nobody in Thedas has ever questioned the existence of the Maker?

Among humanity, outside of the individual that would be correct. It's not a common thing. And, regardless, it's not an option we provided in DAO or will provide in the future.

I'm genuinely a bit agast or confused by this response.

Dragon Age as a series puts religeon and various aspects of theology and philosophy at the heart of the moral choices the player has to make, in Dragon Age 2 the games central plot point is a choice between the chantry position on magic and a rejection of that position.

Surely if you put what is essentially a question of rejecting or not rejecting in-game theology at the heart of a games narrative it is almost impossible to entirely side-step the issue of belief or lack of it.  So much dialogue in Dragon age directly addresses the issue of belief or lack thereof (I'm thinking for example or the discussions between Fenris and Sebastian on his belief in the maker and experiences as a slave or Merril and Sebastian discussing the differences between chantry and elven belief systems or even side quests like choosing to help with the orzammar chantry in Origins, and dialogue options like choosing to be silent at the end of the prayer in redcliff or the previously mentioned dialogue options in the human noble origin story which either imply or directly address a person not being or a religeous persuasion)

Is it not slightly absurd to build a game where religeon is a key story element, have characters discussing whether they believe in a god figure or not, and provide the player character only with dialogue options that assume belief? Esspecially as in the mage templar confict you are asking the player to chose between following the games mainstream relgious teachings and rejecting them? While Atheism may be rare in thedas (although i seem to have encountered a fair bit of discussion of it in my time playing the game ...) the people playing the game are aware of the concept and don't just forget about it when engaging with the theological and philospohical issues the game puts in front of us.

In all honesty, the response from Mr Gaider above reads to me like the response of someone eager to avoid any real world controversy that could be associated with a video game allowing a rejection of faith as a player choice. Understandable perhaps based on the reaction of certain groups to other recent bioware game content but in my oppinion unfortunate. I may be totally off the mark and i'm sorry if I am, but otherwise based on very specific content from the dragon age series that did allow the player character to express such sentiments its a comment I struggle to make sense of.

[Realmzmaster]

Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

The lack of belief in the Maker does not mean that the character does not believe in a higher power or supreme being. The HN simply does not believe in the Maker and Chantry dogma. He could favor the elves belief in the Creators or embrace the teachings of the Qun.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:37 .

[David Gaider]

withneelandi wrote...
Surely if you put what is essentially a question of rejecting or not rejecting in-game theology at the heart of a games narrative it is almost impossible to entirely side-step the issue of belief or lack of it.

It is not a question of rejecting or not rejecting the in-game theology. There are many issues the player needs to wrestle with-- and this is not one of them. While I get that some people believe they should get to decide every single thing about their character, the simple truth is we do not and can not offer every option. If this comes as such a shock that it leaves one "aghast", then I don't know what to say other than that our approach has not altered in any way.

[Cimeas]

David Gaider wrote...

withneelandi wrote...
Surely if you put what is essentially a question of rejecting or not rejecting in-game theology at the heart of a games narrative it is almost impossible to entirely side-step the issue of belief or lack of it.

It is not a question of rejecting or not rejecting the in-game theology. There are many issues the player needs to wrestle with-- and this is not one of them. While I get that some people believe they should get to decide every single thing about their character, the simple truth is we do not and can not offer every option. If this comes as such a shock that it leaves one "aghast", then I don't know what to say other than that our approach has not altered in any way.

So basically this is confirming that the Maker exists, or it wouldn't be such a big deal.

Otherwise, wtf?   This is a fundamental question at the very heart of the game world.  I just don't understand why we can discuss the Dwarven caste system, the elves vs. humans, Capitalism vs. Communism, Mages vs. Templars, and yet we cannot be a rational, skeptical person in the game.    

AFAIK, there is never ANY proof of The Maker in Dragon Age, so any logical, rational Hawke/Warden/Hero should be able to not believe

[Wulfram]

The existence of the Maker isn't all that fundamental to the world. Actually, it seems rather irrelevent if you follow Chantry doctrine - though not if you're a follower of the Lelianaist heresy, I guess.