299 réponses à ce sujet

[Blacklash93]

David Gaider wrote...
There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas.

No offense, but I'm reminded of something.

I see nothing wrong with the PC being able to slip in opinions or personal information. Recently I remember appretiating Serana asking me about my character's parents in the Dawnguard expansion for Skyrim. It was a good moment to help reinforce my character's backstory.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 09 juillet 2012 - 06:33 .

[Cimeas]

Wulfram wrote...

The existence of the Maker isn't all that fundamental to the world. Actually, it seems rather irrelevent if you follow Chantry doctrine - though not if you're a follower of the Lelianaist heresy, I guess.

It is fundamental, because if there is no maker, there should be no Chantry and the core idea that Magic exists to 'serve man' is no longer correct.    All the Termplars and their god-given rights and the millions of believers and everything the Chantry stands for, all the power it has accumulated, is illegitimate.     If Bioware was making a modern-era game, I highly doubt they would force us to follow a particular Religion eg. Islam/Christianity/Hinduism.   

Just because it is a fictional religion doesn't mean we shouldn't have that choice, because it's quite obvious what the real world equivalent of the Chantry is *cough*

[CELL55]

 I don't see why this is such a big deal. It's a fantasy game. It's a fantasy religion. Who cares?(Oh wait, this is the internet. That means everyone cares, what was I thinking?) <_<

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Cimeas wrote...

Otherwise, wtf?   This is a fundamental question at the very heart of the game world.  

No, it isn't.  "Is there a Maker?"  "Yup."  Discussion over.

[Cimeas]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

Otherwise, wtf?   This is a fundamental question at the very heart of the game world.  

No, it isn't.  "Is there a Maker?"  "Yup."  Discussion over.

But that's the whole thing.  Gaider or the games have never confirmed there is a Maker at all.  

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Cimeas wrote...

But that's the whole thing.  Gaider or the games have never confirmed there is a Maker at all.  

The characters believe it.  It's not a central question of the game world, is what I mean.  It might be a curiosity to the player, but all the characters that I can recall are like "Is there a Maker?  Yes?  That's good enough for me."

[wsandista]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

But that's the whole thing.  Gaider or the games have never confirmed there is a Maker at all.  

The characters believe it.  It's not a central question of the game world, is what I mean.  It might be a curiosity to the player, but all the characters that I can recall are like "Is there a Maker?  Yes?  That's good enough for me."

That means they believe in the Maker, not that the Maker exists. There still isn't any proof that the Maker exists or doesn't exist.

[withneelandi]

David Gaider wrote...

withneelandi wrote...
Surely if you put what is essentially a question of rejecting or not rejecting in-game theology at the heart of a games narrative it is almost impossible to entirely side-step the issue of belief or lack of it.

It is not a question of rejecting or not rejecting the in-game theology. There are many issues the player needs to wrestle with-- and this is not one of them. While I get that some people believe they should get to decide every single thing about their character, the simple truth is we do not and can not offer every option. If this comes as such a shock that it leaves one "aghast", then I don't know what to say other than that our approach has not altered in any way.

Fair enough, i'm not going to sit and argue with you about your own game, that would be silly.

In my own defence, I don't think its totally ridiculous to come out of Dragon Age 2, after being asked to choose between the templars and mages and think that there is an element of deciding whether to accept or reject the chantry "magic is meant to help man never to rule over" teaching which we have heard a lot about during the games.

As I say, the wrong impression it may be, but I honestly don't think its a ridiculous one.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

wsandista wrote...

That means they believe in the Maker, not that the Maker exists. There still isn't any proof that the Maker exists or doesn't exist.

Still doesn't matter.  The characters believe.  Still doesn't make it a central question of the game world.  Now if future games put the qunari and their filthy slave-faith in a more direct conflict with the Chantry, then the Maker's existance will be more of a central question.  But in DAO and DA2, the Maker's existance hasn't been a central question.

[Wulfram]

Cimeas wrote...

It is fundamental, because if there is no maker, there should be no Chantry and the core idea that Magic exists to 'serve man' is no longer correct.    All the Termplars and their god-given rights and the millions of believers and everything the Chantry stands for, all the power it has accumulated, is illegitimate.     If Bioware was making a modern-era game, I highly doubt they would force us to follow a particular Religion eg. Islam/Christianity/Hinduism.   

But the existance of the Maker doesn't actually give them divine authorisation.  In the game reality that's been presented, you've got much more chance if you attack their rather tenuous theological claims that the teachings of Andraste support their actions, than by questioning the existance of the Maker.

Though I do think you should be able to express the idea that the Maker, as presented by the Chantry, is a total bastard.

And Dalish, Dwarves and Qunari wouldn't believe in the Maker I guess, if we're allowed to play them again.

[Icesong]

But it's no secret I despise the paraphrases system for putting words into your PC's mouth like this. About all I can do is "I substitute the game's interpretation of what Hawke says for what I say she says," because it looks like the system aint gonna change.

I share your loathing. Can't say how many times you would have found me shaking my fist at the screen while screeching "That's not what I meant at allllll!!!".

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again.

Among humanity, outside of the individual that would be correct. It's not a common thing. And, regardless, it's not an option we provided in DAO or will provide in the future.

You should look through the game's dialogue again, especially Leliana's. For it not being intended there sure were several opportunities to disregard, ridicule and reject Andrastian beliefs.

As much as I enjoyed rolling with Leliana and Morrigan and philosophizing upon life I don't need it to happen again. Silence on the issue would be best.

[wsandista]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Still doesn't matter.  The characters believe.

Not all of them. In fact quite a few don't believe. Morrigan, Aveline, Sten, Oghren, The Warden(possibly), Merrill, etc.

Still doesn't make it a central question of the game world.

Really? The truth behind the game world's most powerful organization isn't a central question of the game world?

But in DAO and DA2, the Maker's existance hasn't been a central question.

You can only speak from your personal experience because you don't have any idea on how others played their PCs.

[Cultist]

Why stop there? Make PC a Seeker or Templar and remove any option to oppose Chantry. That'll fit brand new Dragon Age just damn well!

[wsandista]

Cultist wrote...

Why stop there? Make PC a Seeker or Templar and remove any option to oppose Chantry. That'll fit brand new Dragon Age just damn well!

Voiced PC already removes player comtrol so why not? Maybe a fixed PC like Geralt or Adam will be better than a semi-fixed like Hawke?

[Sir JK]

Do note that there's a difference between being areligious and making that a core fundament of ones character. Simply not caring and openly declaring oneself non believing are not the same. Thus just because atheistic options aren't available doesn't mean all characters have to be devout or firm believers. Atheism as we know it is a very modern thing anyways, but being non or areligious are as old as belief itself.

[Cultist]

Voiced PC already removes player comtrol so why not? Maybe a fixed PC
like Geralt or Adam will be better than a semi-fixed like Hawke?

Well, we always can push awesum buttonness even further

Modifié par Cultist, 09 juillet 2012 - 07:10 .

[Cimeas]

wsandista wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Still doesn't matter.  The characters believe.

Not all of them. In fact quite a few don't believe. Morrigan, Aveline, Sten, Oghren, The Warden(possibly), Merrill, etc.

Still doesn't make it a central question of the game world.

Really? The truth behind the game world's most powerful organization isn't a central question of the game world?

But in DAO and DA2, the Maker's existance hasn't been a central question.

You can only speak from your personal experience because you don't have any idea on how others played their PCs.

Exactly, the Chantry is at the heart of the DA universe and both the Black and the White Chantries all take their right to power from the Maker, as do numerous governments, such as Orlais.   I really don't mind the paraphrase system, in fact I quite like it, but this is a major chocie that should be left up to the player.

Logically, there is no proof for the Maker, so why does my character have to be an idiot and believe in him?

[wsandista]

Cultist wrote...

Voiced PC already removes player comtrol so why not? Maybe a fixed PC
like Geralt or Adam will be better than a semi-fixed like Hawke?

Well, we always can push awesum buttonness even further

Why not? They should either make RPGs or Action games. Trying to do both and failing satisfies no one.

[King Cousland]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

But that's the whole thing.  Gaider or the games have never confirmed there is a Maker at all.  

The characters believe it.  It's not a central question of the game world, is what I mean.  It might be a curiosity to the player, but all the characters that I can recall are like "Is there a Maker?  Yes?  That's good enough for me."

What about Morrigan, Aveline, elves, dwarves, Qunari....

[withneelandi]

I personally think this is a really interesting discussion, because I had just started playing Da2 again after thinking,

"I wonder how the game is different if you play a hawk who is sides against mage because he is a good man, who is inherantly religeous and strongly believes in the chantrys teachings on religeon"

I was interested in how that changed the experience from the way I usually rationalised Hawk's choices. One of the things I would have really complimented Da2 for was the games capacity for that kind of role playing within the established character, and to prompt the player to think about the issues that this throws up.

It was quite surprising to see one of the dev team say that I should have taken that as a given all the way through the game.

I suppose it just goes to show how the intent of the author can be very different from the way the reader (or player) interprets a story.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

wsandista wrote...

Really? The truth behind the game world's most powerful organization isn't a central question of the game world?

That's correct.  At no point in DAO or DA2 is the discussion of the Maker's existance relevant to story... not that I recall anyways.  It might tough on relevence in MotA, when the broken down wretch the qunari conditioned into becoming an assassin talks about her faith, but that a long way from being central to the game world.

You can only speak from your personal experience because you don't have any idea on how others played their PCs.

You can make up anything you'd like, you're free to do that.  The fact is, there's no place (that I recall) in DAO or DA2 where the Maker's existance is at all key to the story or the lives of the game's inhabitants.  By the "just pretend" argument, the central question of the Dragon Age games is how many swings of his helicopter penis does it take Hawke to life off the ground and travel through the sky?

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

harkness72 wrote...

What about Morrigan, Aveline, elves, dwarves, Qunari....

You're totally right!  I was thinking more of the Chantry chanty chanters and their faith.

[Realmzmaster]

If one is to assume that Thedas is based on the Middle Ages or a time period around that time then the espousal of atheistic views was rare and hazardous to a person's well being. The person would be viewed as a heretic.

In game terms this would mean that certain companions should not be seen in the present of one who advocates those views such as Sebastian or Merrill (guilt by association). Sebastian has a firm belief in the Maker and Merrill in the Creators. Also certain quests should be unavailable like Faith.

Also Hawke would be subject to ridicule and possible attack for acknowledging his/her lack of belief in the maker.

[Cimeas]

Realmzmaster wrote...

If one is to assume that Thedas is based on the Middle Ages or a time period around that time then the espousal of atheistic views was rare and hazardous to a person's well being. The person would be viewed as a heretic.

In game terms this would mean that certain companions should not be seen in the present of one who advocates those views such as Sebastian or Merrill (guilt by association). Sebastian has a firm belief in the Maker and Merrill in the Creators. Also certain quests should be unavailable like Faith.

Also Hawke would be subject to ridicule and possible attack for acknowledging his/her lack of belief in the maker.

Yeah, but in Thedas apparently Men adn Woman are seen as equals, and people are tolerant and accepting of homosexuality, seeing it as a 'quirk of personality'.   so it's hardly the middle ages. 

[Fast Jimmy]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

What about Morrigan, Aveline, elves, dwarves, Qunari....

You're totally right!  I was thinking more of the Chantry chanty chanters and their faith.

Even in the case of regular humans, we see people embracing the Qun, which has no Maker. 

If every human across the board can't even fathom the concept of atheism, then why is the Qun so successful in places where humans live like Rivain? The Chantry tried to put people to the sword to force them to return to the worship of the Maker and failed, instead choosing to embrace the atheistic Qun.

So... I don't see how a series that has had pretty serious interactions with members of the Qun (Sten and the Arishok, at the very least) can say the thought of atheism has never entered their mind...?