299 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again.

This is not something I ever thought I'd see.

Naturally, there needs to be some basic background about the protagonist and naturally, the PC response options need to be limited or the game simply cannot be written, but this...

Historically, BioWare has been really good about letting the player decide what beliefs and morals motivate his character. Yes, some aspects have been fixed. You're going to play Gorion's Ward, the Bhaalspawn, Shepherd, the Warden, Hawke, whatever, but there was nothing in the dialogue that told you what your character was thinking or feeling. I'm going to hope that I'm reading too much into this. I'd like to think the dialogue wheel wouldn't be three variations on "The Maker's will be done".

There does seem to be room in the DA universe for agnostics. Aveline tells Hawke outright that she remains unconvinced.

After Legacy, it's pretty clear that religion is going to play a major part in upcoming games. It's also pretty clear that unless a charcter is Chasind, Avvar, or has lived all his life in a cave, he'll have heard of the Maker. But... wow. I really hope this doesn't mean that we'll have to play a zealot.

[Cimeas]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

What about Morrigan, Aveline, elves, dwarves, Qunari....

You're totally right!  I was thinking more of the Chantry chanty chanters and their faith.

Even in the case of regular humans, we see people embracing the Qun, which has no Maker. 

If every human across the board can't even fathom the concept of atheism, then why is the Qun so successful in places where humans live like Rivain? The Chantry tried to put people to the sword to force them to return to the worship of the Maker and failed, instead choosing to embrace the atheistic Qun.

So... I don't see how a series that has had pretty serious interactions with members of the Qun (Sten and the Arishok, at the very least) can say the thought of atheism has never entered their mind...?

To be honest, I think of most of my characters as atheist free market capitalists, sort of like Isabela, out to make a profit and little else.  If becoming a grey warden and using that to get wealth and power is an option, I'll take it.   If an expedition to the deep roads or the support of the Viscount gets it, then I'll get those things too. 

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

What about Morrigan, Aveline, elves, dwarves, Qunari....

You're totally right!  I was thinking more of the Chantry chanty chanters and their faith.

Even in the case of regular humans, we see people embracing the Qun, which has no Maker. 

If every human across the board can't even fathom the concept of atheism, then why is the Qun so successful in places where humans live like Rivain? The Chantry tried to put people to the sword to force them to return to the worship of the Maker and failed, instead choosing to embrace the atheistic Qun.

So... I don't see how a series that has had pretty serious interactions with members of the Qun (Sten and the Arishok, at the very least) can say the thought of atheism has never entered their mind...?

Actually the people of Rivain believe in the Natural Order and therefore are pantheists. The Qun and their religion are not contradictory. Pantheists believe in unity (unity of all is in iteself divine) and the good of all which is the core philopsophy of the Qun. 

[Realmzmaster]

Cimeas wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

If one is to assume that Thedas is based on the Middle Ages or a time period around that time then the espousal of atheistic views was rare and hazardous to a person's well being. The person would be viewed as a heretic.

In game terms this would mean that certain companions should not be seen in the present of one who advocates those views such as Sebastian or Merrill (guilt by association). Sebastian has a firm belief in the Maker and Merrill in the Creators. Also certain quests should be unavailable like Faith.

Also Hawke would be subject to ridicule and possible attack for acknowledging his/her lack of belief in the maker.

Yeah, but in Thedas apparently Men adn Woman are seen as equals, and people are tolerant and accepting of homosexuality, seeing it as a 'quirk of personality'.   so it's hardly the middle ages. 

Slavery is still allowed and racism exists. So I assume the tolerance is selective.

[Fallstar]

The fact that the Maker exists (which seemed pretty likely anyway) doesn't mean you can't reject the Andrastian chantry. Even if you can't be an atheist, you can still opt not to follow such beliefs. After all, there is plenty to suggest that the Maker isn't a benevolent entity. In the same way that the Old Gods exist, but you aren't required to worship them. Unless they suddenly restrict our dialogue options to declaring our devotion to the Maker, nothing need change.

Having said that, there was ample opportunity to reject belief in the Maker in DAO, most times you met a sister or mother, and that dwarven fellow who wanted to start a chantry in Orzammar come to mind. It's a tad hard to believe DG (or whoever wrote that dialogue) didn't intend those lines to cater to an atheist, or at least non Andrastian, character.

[Cultist]

harkness72 wrote...
What about Morrigan, Aveline, elves, dwarves, Qunari....

If they was in there, then so be it. They wasn't intended to be an option. And they certainly won't be again.

Modifié par Cultist, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:01 .

[Reznore57]

I think a form of atheism exist in Thedas , the qun ,dwarves etc...
But i'm not sure a lot of people totally reject the idea of something "greater" , even if they don't have faith in it or don't feel concerned.
Just thinking when we didn't know anything about what was beyond the sky ,our ancestors imagination ran free and lots of myth were born.
In Thedas ,as far as i can tell , they have no concern of science like we do. The fade , the sky , natural disaster ,etc... even in the Qun , it seems they have a philosophical approach to it.
Besides there's magic , and it's not explain in a pratical manner anywhere.
Like it's something that came from lyrium , there's nothing more to it ,end of the story.

Now about playing a pc that never question his/her faith ,well...it puzzle me a bit.I didn't mind Hawke "faith" there was enough room for me to imagine what he/she would reallly think.
But if i would have to play a pc that openly believe in the Maker and have faith , voice it , I don't think i would like that very much.

Our pc run into different cultures , hear about different opinions , so it's not unthinkable , he/she could think differently than most humans.
About the Maker , i don't mind playing a pc that believe the Maker may exist, afterall it's probably a possibility .
But as far as i'm concerned , we don't know this "Maker " or any gods , they could be evil , maybe they don't give a f*** about mortals , maybe they have their own agenda .
Anyway i'm fine with it as long as my p.c isn't forced onto some blind faith just because...

And now I wonder if we're gonna play a seeker ...if we do , i just hope we'll be able to voice different opinion about the matter.

[David Gaider]

berelinde wrote...
After Legacy, it's pretty clear that religion is going to play a major part in upcoming games. It's also pretty clear that unless a charcter is Chasind, Avvar, or has lived all his life in a cave, he'll have heard of the Maker. But... wow. I really hope this doesn't mean that we'll have to play a zealot.

Of course not. Just because we say "we're not going to provide you options to express atheism" doesn't mean we'll suddenly force you to express devout belief. In other words, just because it's not one thing doesn't mean it has to be the complete and extreme opposite.

I get why some people might automatically go to "well why shouldn't it be possible?", except that we have other hills to die on. This question has come up before, and the answer is the same. And I think this is about as much as I want to discuss the topic.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So... I don't see how a series that has had pretty serious interactions with members of the Qun (Sten and the Arishok, at the very least) can say the thought of atheism has never entered their mind...?

If I remember right...  The qunari believe in some kind of magical wave creates the universe and everything will eventually return to the magical wave.  The religion might not have a god with a sweet city in the sky, but it still has a central diety power figure.  The qun isn't atheistic, it's god just melted.

[King Cousland]

Cultist wrote...

harkness72 wrote...
What about Morrigan, Aveline, elves, dwarves, Qunari....

If they was in there, then so be it. They wasn't intended to be an option. And they certainly won't be again.

:') You sir have made my day.

Modifié par harkness72, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .

[Brockololly]

Having played Bloodlines recently, it would be interesting if we had Origins again if you had various Origins tied to different religions which then changed the available PC dialogue options. Or you could otherwise set the player character's religious beliefs early on in the game, either in CC or via some early dialogue.

I'm just thinking how cool it would be like playing as a Malkavian in Bloodlines, you could play as a Qunari getting the sort of blunt dialogue like Sten. Or just more unique dialogue like that in general...

Or with respect to the player character's religion, if its set by the player early on in the game, that changes some quest you possibly have later on that exists to maybe challenge their belief. So if you had the option to say your PC did not believe in the Maker, then some later quest presented the player with something that might seem an awful lot like the divine to maybe make the PC change their view on things.

Modifié par Brockololly, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:12 .

[Fredward]

I know I've always wanted to express my burning agnostic passion in DA games. I feel robbed, confused, conflicted, violated and also a little hungry.

Why should atheism get the spotlight? Heck why isn't there a Buddhism analog?!

I can honestly say that this has NEVER been a problem for either my Warden or my Hawke. The Chantry has been in control for almost a thousand years with barely any opposition and the opposition doesn't even deny that the Maker exists so yah. It would be kinda hard to be an atheist in those circumstances. Not impossible mind you but I really don't see why it should be a defining characteristic of whoever I happen to play.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:19 .

[Icesong]

Realmzmaster wrote...

If one is to assume that Thedas is based on the Middle Ages or a time period around that time then the espousal of atheistic views was rare and hazardous to a person's well being. The person would be viewed as a heretic.

In game terms this would mean that certain companions should not be seen in the present of one who advocates those views such as Sebastian or Merrill (guilt by association). Sebastian has a firm belief in the Maker and Merrill in the Creators. Also certain quests should be unavailable like Faith.

Also Hawke would be subject to ridicule and possible attack for acknowledging his/her lack of belief in the maker.

I look back to DAO and bits of DA2 and find this argument unpersuasive.

[Realmzmaster]

Atheism expresses a lack of belief in any divine being or the worship thereof. Elves believe in the Creators. Dwarves embrace their ancestors and paragons (not as divine beings) but in reverence. People of Ravain believe in the Natural Order. The Qun also sees the unity of the whole as part of nature (the divine moral structure of the world).

The Maker is rejected not the lack of belief in a divine force.

[Realmzmaster]

Icesong wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

If one is to assume that Thedas is based on the Middle Ages or a time period around that time then the espousal of atheistic views was rare and hazardous to a person's well being. The person would be viewed as a heretic.

In game terms this would mean that certain companions should not be seen in the present of one who advocates those views such as Sebastian or Merrill (guilt by association). Sebastian has a firm belief in the Maker and Merrill in the Creators. Also certain quests should be unavailable like Faith.

Also Hawke would be subject to ridicule and possible attack for acknowledging his/her lack of belief in the maker.

I look back to DAO and bits of DA2 and find this argument unpersuasive.

That statement requires elaboration. What bits are you referencing?

[WotanAnubis]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Why should atheism get the spotlight? Heck why isn't there a Buddhism analog?!

I'd like to say the Qun could sort of work, since it's a philosophy where the religious/supernatural component seems kind of optional. But on the other hand, if I remember right, at least some early converts to  Buddhism did so to escape the rigid caste system of Hinduism. And while the Qun... well, it may not be as caste-based as the functionally atheistic belief system of the dwarves, but still. It kinda looks caste-based.


Also, I distinctly remember my Warden telling Leliana and every Chantry priestess she came acrossing that she didn't believe in the Maker. Eventually, Leliana even mentioned to my Warden that she knew my Warden didn't believe in the Maker (possibly because I'd been telling her so all game long).

But apparently I suffer from false memories since it's not possible to roleplay an atheist in Dragon Age.

[Icesong]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

If one is to assume that Thedas is based on the Middle Ages or a time period around that time then the espousal of atheistic views was rare and hazardous to a person's well being. The person would be viewed as a heretic.

In game terms this would mean that certain companions should not be seen in the present of one who advocates those views such as Sebastian or Merrill (guilt by association). Sebastian has a firm belief in the Maker and Merrill in the Creators. Also certain quests should be unavailable like Faith.

Also Hawke would be subject to ridicule and possible attack for acknowledging his/her lack of belief in the maker.

I look back to DAO and bits of DA2 and find this argument unpersuasive.

That statement requires elaboration. What bits are you referencing?

DAO I'm referencing The Warden, Morrigan and various others heretics that walked around Ferelden without being attacked. DA2 -- I'll get back to you after I play through it again to be sure the parts I'm remembering are accurate. At the least Hawke getting away with being a apostate/blood mage in Kirkwall is an example of heretic behavior.

[Fredward]

^ Yeah the only time the Chantry seems to object to "heretics" is when an entire people rejects it, like the old elves or the Qunari, individuals seem fine. They don't even really bother the Dalish anymore either.

[Realmzmaster]

WotanAnubis wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Why should atheism get the spotlight? Heck why isn't there a Buddhism analog?!

I'd like to say the Qun could sort of work, since it's a philosophy where the religious/supernatural component seems kind of optional. But on the other hand, if I remember right, at least some early converts to  Buddhism did so to escape the rigid caste system of Hinduism. And while the Qun... well, it may not be as caste-based as the functionally atheistic belief system of the dwarves, but still. It kinda looks caste-based.


Also, I distinctly remember my Warden telling Leliana and every Chantry priestess she came acrossing that she didn't believe in the Maker. Eventually, Leliana even mentioned to my Warden that she knew my Warden didn't believe in the Maker (possibly because I'd been telling her so all game long).

But apparently I suffer from false memories since it's not possible to roleplay an atheist in Dragon Age.

You told her and every priestess that your warden did not believe in the Maker not that your warden did not believe in some divine power. If your warden is an elf he/she may not believe in the Maker, but the Creators. If your warden is a dwarf noble or commoner your warden would not believe in the Maker, but may revere their ancestors or paragons.

Saying you do not believe in the Maker is not the same as believing there is no divine power. 

[WotanAnubis]

Pretty sure Merrill counts as a heathen (though not as a heretic, I think, because she'd have to be part of the Chantry first). But nobody seems particularly interested in dragging her off to the stake. Not even Sebastian - though he does keep trying to convert her.

[Wulfram]

Hawke can go up to the Grand Cleric and dismiss the idea that the Maker was behind the defeat of the blight.

Though by my understanding of Chantry theology, it might be the Grand Cleric who is being the heretic there...

[WotanAnubis]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You told her and every priestess that your warden did not believe in the Maker not that your warden did not believe in some divine power. If your warden is an elf he/she may not believe in the Maker, but the Creators. If your warden is a dwarf noble or commoner your warden would not believe in the Maker, but may revere their ancestors or paragons.

Saying you do not believe in the Maker is not the same as believing there is no divine power.

Or my Warden could be human and not believe in the Maker.

Personally, when someone (or when I make someone) says that they don't believe in any of the religions presented to them, I assume a certain level of atheism. Apparently, you assume a certain level of theism.

Basically, I tend to side with 'atheist until proven otherwise', you seem to go with 'theist until proven otherwise'.

[Icesong]

Realmzmaster wrote...

WotanAnubis wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Why should atheism get the spotlight? Heck why isn't there a Buddhism analog?!

I'd like to say the Qun could sort of work, since it's a philosophy where the religious/supernatural component seems kind of optional. But on the other hand, if I remember right, at least some early converts to  Buddhism did so to escape the rigid caste system of Hinduism. And while the Qun... well, it may not be as caste-based as the functionally atheistic belief system of the dwarves, but still. It kinda looks caste-based.


Also, I distinctly remember my Warden telling Leliana and every Chantry priestess she came acrossing that she didn't believe in the Maker. Eventually, Leliana even mentioned to my Warden that she knew my Warden didn't believe in the Maker (possibly because I'd been telling her so all game long).

But apparently I suffer from false memories since it's not possible to roleplay an atheist in Dragon Age.

You told her and every priestess that your warden did not believe in the Maker not that your warden did not believe in some divine power. If your warden is an elf he/she may not believe in the Maker, but the Creators. If your warden is a dwarf noble or commoner your warden would not believe in the Maker, but may revere their ancestors or paragons.

Saying you do not believe in the Maker is not the same as believing there is no divine power. 

It isn't and you can make that argument, but it doesn't discount the possibility of atheism. I think one's more plausible than the other but I appreciate that freedom is there. I've considered doing a human character that believes in the Creators.

Modifié par Icesong, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:47 .

[Ellestor]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So... I don't see how a series that has had pretty serious interactions with members of the Qun (Sten and the Arishok, at the very least) can say the thought of atheism has never entered their mind...?

If I remember right...  The qunari believe in some kind of magical wave creates the universe and everything will eventually return to the magical wave.  The religion might not have a god with a sweet city in the sky, but it still has a central diety power figure.  The qun isn't atheistic, it's god just melted.

On that note, would you also say Buddhism isn't atheistic? My understanding was that it was correctly considered an atheistic religion because it is, quite simply, without a god, a-theos.

There are all kinds of superstitious atheists, sadly.  There's quite a lot more for skeptics to deal with than deities.

Modifié par Ellestor, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:54 .

[WotanAnubis]

Icesong wrote...

I've considered doing a human character that believes in the Creators.

That always seemed like a fun thing to do to me, if only to see the reactions of the Dalish.

Sadly, though, I think only the Dalish elf is capable of expressing belief in the Creators. Not even the City Elf can convert. Unless you do some modding, I guess.