299 réponses à ce sujet

[Bullets McDeath]

I'd just like to point out that while atheism was not a "thing" in the medieval age, at least not one that wouldn't get you burned at the stake... y'know, people couldn't be in an openly homosexual relationship back then, either. Women also couldn't be soldiers. People couldn't throw fireballs, etc.

If you want to paint Thedas as a place where everyone just accepts that the Maker exists, whether they are truly devout and faithful or not, fine. It fits with the setting. But the player character is always someone exceptional and they should be allowed be allowed to be exceptional in this regard too, if the player wants. For certain players, it's a big deal. Unless it is explicitly a part of my character's concept, I find it difficult to RP faith, because I myself lack so much as a drop. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, and I've seen complaints before about Hawke's auto-Andrastianism before (mostly in regards to the combat shouts).

Besides, how you can pander to trannies and queers but NOT godless heathens? What kind of filthy liberal police state are you trying to run, anyway?!

Modifié par outlaworacle, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:49 .

[Iosev]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...


"I suppose she could believe in something else, no matter what she says..."

Morrigan may not believe in the Maker, but she certainly seems to believe in the existence of the Old Gods.

Modifié par arcelonious, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:59 .

[Icesong]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh boy, this isn't going to be taken well considering the religion hate on these boards.

Edit:

Unless your character was in a position which they'd be able to study theology, dogma would probably dictate your character's life throughout their entire childhood and beyond--they may not be overly religious, though to claim that your character is completely an athiest (in the sense that thugs may laugh in a priest's faice but the idea of the Maker and the Golden City is still burned into their mind) in such a setting shows your real world opinion influencing your character far too much.

I'm not sure what you're saying when talking about thugs and priests and the Golden City. Actually, I'm not sure what you're saying at all. I mean, I think I know but it seems too absurd to be the case. How do you propose new religions, atheists and revolutionary ideas in general ever came to be if a person were unable to break their upbringing?

Regardless, the human origins are covered for your bizarre "study theology" criteria.

Morrigan may not believe in the Maker, but she certainly seems to believe in the existence of the Old Gods.

So does my Warden. Because that's their name. They aren't really gods though.

Modifié par Icesong, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:59 .

[Iosev]

Icesong wrote...

So does my Warden. Because that's their name. They aren't really gods though.

Can you explain exactly how they aren't gods, especially considering that Bioware hasn't revealed everything about them yet?

[Icesong]

arcelonious wrote...

Icesong wrote...

So does my Warden. Because that's their name. They aren't really gods though.

Can you explain exactly how they aren't gods, especially considering that Bioware hasn't revealed everything about them yet?

I don't care to no as I was just telling you what my Warden believes.

Edit: Which I did for the purposes of offering an alternative explanation to your apparent interpretation of Morrigan's beliefs, to be clear. She believes they exists because they do. She calls them Old Gods because that's their name. It's not a declaration of belief in their divinity. It could be, I guess, though if you look at her dialogue I think you'd have to stretch really far.

Modifié par Icesong, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:30 .

[Dave of Canada]

Icesong wrote...

I'm not sure what you're saying when talking about thugs and priests and the Golden City. Actually, I'm not sure what you're saying at all. I mean, I think I know but it seems too absurd to be the case.

I used the thug as an example as more seedy origins usually means you're less likely to be deeply religious. What I'm talking about is that the idea of the Golden City, The Maker and going to his side is deeply intertwined into humanity's culture and conscious.

A man who is raised under one belief his entire life does not need to be fanatically devoted to believe in heaven, god and such--especially in a world without education.

How do you propose new religions, atheists and revolutionary ideas in general ever came to be if a person were unable to break their upbringing?

Centuries of social reform and change, education being introduced on a wider scale and the loss of power of the nobility and the church due to the now-educated peasants. It doesn't happen over night when somebody wakes up and says "You know, I believe everything we were raised to know is wrong".

[David Gaider]

MerinTB wrote...
Chalk it up to my imperfect interpretation of the game, but when I played it I thought the game was making it vague and unclear as to whether Andraste was merely a person or really a supernatural figure, on whether the maker was real at all, really a god if he ever existed, etc.  Every point of disbelieve about whether elves ever had more magic or longer lives, about what "really" created the darkspawn...

a large portion of my love of DA:O was the ambiguity of the world.  I thought it was, at worst, being left unanswered but to be revealed in later games, OR, at best, that these would remain questions of faith and not truth.

So it's at least, at the very least, partially my fault for becoming enamored with the game for something you still seem to be saying it was never meant to be.

Doesn't make the realization any less devastating, personally... on an "attachement to a piece of entertainment" level, at least.

So... you're interpreting what I'm saying is that that the Maker is real? That not allowing the player to express atheistic belief is the same as the setting having no ambiguity regarding the truth of divinity?

I really don't know what to say about that.

[Zanallen]

Mr. Gaider, your signature should really be: "Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in."

[Elvis_Mazur]

Wait, I thought you could be one in DA 2? I mean, we couldn't outright say we don't believe, but Hawke could say some mean things to the Grand Cleric about her not helping the city (for example), which in a way helps you to express your atheist Hawke's opinions.

And, every time Hawke says "Maker's breath" or something similar, you can say it's just "the force of being raised in a place of believers" and that he/she never really thought about what he/she was going to say. Very similar to what sometimes happens with me.

[jillabender]

@David Gaider: I might be off-base, but it sounds to me as though you didn't mean to exclude the possibility that the PC or other characters might not believe in a deity that's exactly like the Chantry's version of the Maker. If I'm understanding you correctly, what you meant to suggest was that it would be very unlikely for a character in the Dragon Age setting to believe that there is no higher power at all – and if that's indeed what you meant, it makes complete sense to me.

Modifié par jillabender, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:50 .

[Fast Jimmy]

 The hate on this thread is growing...


 


Good... good...



On a side note, I don't expect DA3 or any other video game to custom tailor entire story-boards or writing styles to discuss varying religious viewpoints. That being said, the odd, random comment made possible in dialogue did seem to, at the very least, give us the option to say "I don't know if there is a Big Man In The Sky or not" which is all people seem to need. Not an entirely scripted character model, just the occassional piece of dialogue. 

We saw a few random glimpses of this in DA:O, less so from Hawke in DA2. I think that is all people were (originally) saying. 

[Icesong]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Icesong wrote...

I'm not sure what you're saying when talking about thugs and priests and the Golden City. Actually, I'm not sure what you're saying at all. I mean, I think I know but it seems too absurd to be the case.

I used the thug as an example as more seedy origins usually means you're less likely to be deeply religious. What I'm talking about is that the idea of the Golden City, The Maker and going to his side is deeply intertwined into humanity's culture and conscious.

Well, I don't see how that would make one any less of an atheist as you said. I hate to use a real world example since people are already misguidedly conflating the two, but I have Christian imagery and beliefs ingrained in me along with much of Western culture yet it doesn't change that I simply don't believe.

Centuries of social reform and change, education being introduced on a wider scale and the loss of power of the nobility and the church due to the now-educated peasants. It doesn't happen over night when somebody wakes up and says "You know, I believe everything we were raised to know is wrong".

This is, perhaps, how broad societal change happens. On the individual level it takes far less, sometimes nothing. Which is what's being talked about: defining your own beliefs. No one's seriously suggesting to have the option to be able to social crusade throughout Thedas.

Modifié par Icesong, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:47 .

[Icesong]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

 The hate on this thread is growing...


 


Good... good...



On a side note, I don't expect DA3 or any other video game to custom tailor entire story-boards or writing styles to discuss varying religious viewpoints. That being said, the odd, random comment made possible in dialogue did seem to, at the very least, give us the option to say "I don't know if there is a Big Man In The Sky or not" which is all people seem to need. Not an entirely scripted character model, just the occassional piece of dialogue. 

We saw a few random glimpses of this in DA:O, less so from Hawke in DA2. I think that is all people were (originally) saying. 

Right. I'm not sure if I'm more surprised that Gaider didn't know DAO had this or that he's so opposed to putting it back in. It's not as if what's being asked for is things like telling that dwarf in Orzamar who's trying to create a Chantry that he should create a school of reason instead.

My Warden helped him by the way.

Modifié par Icesong, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:54 .

[David Gaider]

Zanallen wrote...
Mr. Gaider, your signature should really be: "Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in."

I know, right? WTH.

jillabender wrote...
@David Gaider: I might be off-base, but
it sounds to me as though you didn't mean to exclude the possibility
that the PC or other characters might not believe in a deity that's
exactly like the Chantry's version of the Maker. If I'm understanding
you correctly, what you meant to suggest was that it would be very
unlikely for a character in the Dragon Age setting to believe that there
is no higher power at all – and if that's indeed what you meant, it makes complete sense to me.

That's indeed the case. Not believing in the Chantry or the Maker is not atheism-- though I suppose some folks might have different definitions. As I recall, DAO had options for dwarven and Dalish elf characters to openly scoff at the Maker-- but that's because they had beliefs of their own. Morrigan's a special case, sure, but I wouldn't call her an atheist. Even if someone else does, she's certainly not the norm.

And, yes, the player character could be a special case, too. Like I said, we don't go out of our way to say the player must endorse a religious view, we just don't offer options for the player to openly express atheism. If someone says we did this on occasion (for human characters?) in DAO, I'll take their word for it. They probably remember better than I do, at this point.

If it would really make fans happy, I'll modify my statement to say we'll consider offering the option to express doubt-- when it's appropriate. Meaning, if the issue of faith is directly in question. Otherwise, like I said, it's not really one of the viewpoints we allow for (among the many that we do). And that's as far as I'll give on that point.

Fair enough?

Modifié par David Gaider, 10 juillet 2012 - 02:04 .

[jillabender]

Fast Jimmy wrote…

On a side note, I don't expect DA3 or any other video game to custom tailor entire story-boards or writing styles to discuss varying religious viewpoints. That being said, the odd, random comment made possible in dialogue did seem to, at the very least, give us the option to say "I don't know if there is a Big Man In The Sky or not" which is all people seem to need. Not an entirely scripted character model, just the occassional piece of dialogue.

We saw a few random glimpses of this in DA:O, less so from Hawke in DA2. I think that is all people were (originally) saying.

I agree – it's not at all a stretch for me to imagine that a character in the Dragon Age setting might not believe in a higher power who fits the "Big Man in the Sky" image that the Chantry has of the Maker, so I don't see anything inconsistent about the occasional piece of dialogue that suggests that possibility.

Modifié par jillabender, 10 juillet 2012 - 02:03 .

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Not sure why someone thinks it was an option in DAO

Probably because they could say things like "I've told you before I don't believe in the Maker" in the HN origin

Apparently, "someone" thinks it was an option because it was.

[Icesong]

David Gaider wrote...
If it would really make fans happy, I'll modify my statement to say we'll consider offering the option to express doubt-- when it's appropriate. Meaning, if the issue of faith is directly in question. Otherwise, like I said, it's not really one of the viewpoints we allow for (among the many that we do). And that's as far as I'll give on that point.

Fair enough?

More than fair. I'd just be satisfied with avoiding the issue entirely by keeping the character silent on the matter. A lot can be read into silence.

[jillabender]

David Gaider wrote…

Not believing in the Chantry or the Maker is not atheism-- though I suppose some folks might have different definitions.

Yes, it seems like differing definitions of atheism are the source of most of the misunderstandings in this thread.

David Gaider wrote…

As I recall, DAO had options for dwarven and Dalish elf characters to openly scoff at the Maker-- but that's because they had beliefs of their own. Morrigan's a special case, sure, but I wouldn't call her an atheist. Even if someone else does, she's certainly not the norm.

And, yes, the player character could be a special case, too. Like I said, we don't go out of our way to say the player must endorse a religious view, we just don't offer options for the player to openly express atheism. If someone says we did this on occasion (for human characters?) in DAO, I'll take their word for it. They probably remember better than I do, at this point.

If I remember correctly, the PC in Origins never has the opportunity to completely disavow any belief in a higher power. He or she does have the opportunity to express doubts about the Chantry and the Maker, but as you've pointed out, that's a quite different thing.

Modifié par jillabender, 10 juillet 2012 - 04:03 .

[Iosev]

Icesong wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

Icesong wrote...

So does my Warden. Because that's their name. They aren't really gods though.

Can you explain exactly how they aren't gods, especially considering that Bioware hasn't revealed everything about them yet?

I don't care to no as I was just telling you what my Warden believes.

Edit: Which I did for the purposes of offering an alternative explanation to your apparent interpretation of Morrigan's beliefs, to be clear. She believes they exists because they do. She calls them Old Gods because that's their name. It's not a declaration of belief in their divinity. It could be, I guess, though if you look at her dialogue I think you'd have to stretch really far.

My comment was merely to imply that while Morrigan may not believe in the Maker, it doesn't necessarily mean that she's an atheist (and going from Gaider's response, he seems to suggest the same notion).  When you said, "They aren't really gods though," that statement was presented as a fact, so I was just curious as to how they weren't, considering how little we really know about them.  Now that I know you meant, "My warden doesn't believe that they are gods," I understand that it is merely your interpretation of them.

And from what I understand, the Old Gods are called that because they were worshipped as deities, and Morrigan, for reasons never really elaborated on, felt that they were worth preserving.

[Chun Hei]

About half of my Hawkes are atheists. By that I mean that s/he does not believe in a "God" or "gods" in the Biblical sense though s/he does believe it is possible that there are beings great in power and scope. If the Elven gods were to show up she would assume they were something akin to Thor from Marvel Comics not beings to be worshiped. Just like s/he did not fall at the feet of Flemeth in worship.

So long as Bioware does not force me to be a "believer" I do not see what the problem is.

[Icesong]

jillabender wrote...

David Gaider wrote…

Not believing in the Chantry or the Maker is not atheism-- though I suppose some folks might have different definitions.

Yes, it seems like differing definitions of atheism are the source of most of the misunderstandings in this thread.

David Gaider wrote…

As I recall, DAO had options for dwarven and Dalish elf characters to openly scoff at the Maker-- but that's because they had beliefs of their own. Morrigan's a special case, sure, but I wouldn't call her an atheist. Even if someone else does, she's certainly not the norm.

And, yes, the player character could be a special case, too. Like I said, we don't go out of our way to say the player must endorse a religious view, we just don't offer options for the player to openly express atheism. If someone says we did this on occasion (for human characters?) in DAO, I'll take their word for it. They probably remember better than I do, at this point.

If I remember correctly, the PC in Origins never has the opportunity to disavow any belief in a higher power whatsoever. He or she does have the opportunity to express doubts about the Chantry and the Maker, but as you've pointed out, that's a quite different thing.

I don't think many people are confused about what atheism in DAO entailed. They just realize and take advantage of the broader freedom to be an atheist in DAO provided. Hawke never rejects the Maker and mocks the Chantry as the Warden does. Hawke constantly uses the Maker's name(which, again, I'm not opposed to) and can be made to say things clearly religious and so it feels much less viable to do a character that's a non-believer.

[LobselVith8]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

If that was in there, then so be it. There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again.

Curious. Why there's opposition to such an innocuous RP concept is beyond me. Morrigan's banter with Leliana alone is enough to suggest some people do express disbelief in the Maker, if not true athiesm.

• Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
• Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

• Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?
• Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

I suppose she could believe in something else, no matter what she says, but a shame the PC is not permitted to hold similar views simply, no matter how he was raised.

It's a shame.

[jillabender]

Icesong wrote…

I don't think many people are confused about what atheism in DAO entailed. They just realize and take advantage of the broader freedom to be an atheist in DAO provided. Hawke never rejects the Maker and mocks the Chantry as the Warden does. Hawke constantly uses the Maker's name(which, again, I'm not opposed to) and can be made to say things clearly religious and so it feels much less viable to do a character that's a non-believer.

I actually agree with you – what I meant was that some people, like David Gaider, have been using the term "atheism" to refer to disavowing any belief in a higher power, while others have been using it to refer to disavowing belief in the kind of deity represented by the Maker and the Andrastean Chantry. That's the misunderstanding I was referring to.

Modifié par jillabender, 10 juillet 2012 - 04:04 .

[Icesong]

arcelonious wrote...

Icesong wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

Icesong wrote...

So does my Warden. Because that's their name. They aren't really gods though.

Can you explain exactly how they aren't gods, especially considering that Bioware hasn't revealed everything about them yet?

I don't care to no as I was just telling you what my Warden believes.

Edit: Which I did for the purposes of offering an alternative explanation to your apparent interpretation of Morrigan's beliefs, to be clear. She believes they exists because they do. She calls them Old Gods because that's their name. It's not a declaration of belief in their divinity. It could be, I guess, though if you look at her dialogue I think you'd have to stretch really far.

My comment was merely to imply that while Morrigan may not believe in the Maker, it doesn't necessarily mean that she's an atheist (and going from Gaider's response, he seems to suggest the same notion).  When you said, "They aren't really gods though," that statement was presented as a fact, so I was just curious as to how they weren't, considering how little we really know about them.  Now that I know you meant, "My warden doesn't believe that they are gods," I understand that it is merely your interpretation of them.

And from what I understand, the Old Gods are called that because they were worshipped as deities, and Morrigan, for reasons never really elaborated on, felt that they were worth preserving.

Yeah, sorry for the confusion, I responded too quickly. Though I can't understand this idea that Morrigan wasn't an atheist. I mean, that dialogue Shadow of Light Dragon posted is pretty clear on the matter:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

I guess there's still some room for a religion like The Force. Maybe. Still seems like a higher power to me.

Here's some more quotes:

Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing, to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.
Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen through me to my sad, sad core.

Leliana: I do not need to know because I have faith. I believe in Him and feel His hope and His love.
Morrigan: "Faith." How quickly those who have no answers invoke that word.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.
Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.
Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?
Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

[jillabender]

Icesong wrote…

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?
Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Based on that dialogue, I agree with you that "atheist" seems to appropriately describe Morrigan. Perhaps it wouldn't even feel all that out of place if the PC had the chance to express the same views that Morrigan does – I'll have to think more about that.

Modifié par jillabender, 10 juillet 2012 - 04:04 .