299 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

arcelonious wrote...

Morrigan may not believe in the Maker, but she certainly seems to believe in the existence of the Old Gods.

What Morrigan ultimately believes has no true bearing on the discussion though. It remains that she can say she doesn't believe, which is apparently something the PC isn't allowed to do, and should never have been allowed to do.

I'm not suggesting dialogue options that allow for every (dis)belief, because that would be unreasonable, but I am raising my eyebrows at a PC emphatically not being allowed to express the same beliefs as NPCs have.

If the issue is truly the rarity of atheism, or at least voiced disbelief, well, so what? It'll still be rare if the PC subscribes to it, whether or not she is sincere.

David Gaider wrote...

If it would really make fans happy, I'll modify my statement to say we'll consider offering the option to express doubt-- when it's appropriate. Meaning, if the issue of faith is directly in question. Otherwise, like I said, it's not really one of the viewpoints we allow for (among the many that we do). And that's as far as I'll give on that point.

Fair enough?

Anything that allows for more RP options will make me happy, really.

[TEWR]

jillabender wrote...

If I remember correctly, the PC in Origins never has the opportunity to disavow any belief in a higher power whatsoever. He or she does have the opportunity to express doubts about the Chantry and the Maker, but as you've pointed out, those are two quite separate things.

The Human Noble can openly say in the Origin story they don't believe in the Maker.

arcelonious wrote...

Morrigan may not believe in the Maker, but she certainly seems to believe in the existence of the Old Gods.

Well, the Old Gods were neither Creators nor created (per DG IIRC) and it's kinda hard to not believe in them.

And she believes in them as powerful draconic beings, but I think that's it. Modern Thedosian scholars -- and maybe even ancient ones -- have argued that the Old Gods were just really powerful High Dragons, of a sort not really seen anywhere else. They've even posited that their entrapment in the bowels of the earth is hibernation and not something the Maker did.

So the belief in the Old Gods for her really just stops at "They're dragons, they're more powerful then the average dragon, they're connected to Darkspawn, and I can harvest the soul of one". She believes they exist, but I don't think she believes in them as necessarily being gods.

Could be wrong though.

Wulfram wrote....

Though by my understanding of Chantry theology, it might be the Grand Cleric who is being the heretic there...

I'd say that's something that's largely dependant on who you talk to in the Chantry clergy -- more so in regards to who the Divine is. Brother Genitivi's research was deemed blasphemous, Sister Petrine's views were deemed close to heretical, Leliana's were laughed at, and so on and so forth.

The Chantry doesn't really have any sort of clear cut view on their faith, and they're not so tolerant of other interpetations or belief systems. Maybe Justinia V will change that, should she be able to calm the tidal waters.

The times, they are a-changin'

Seems appropriate to link to Bob Dylan when talking about DAIII.

David Gaider wrote...

That's indeed the case. Not believing in the Chantry or the Maker is not atheism-- though I suppose some folks might have different definitions.

One could argue that since the Human Noble can express that they don't believe in the Maker and cannot say they believe in other religions that they learn about, that effectively makes them atheists in the minds of the player. They disbelieve in one religion, don't believe in others (whether by player headcanon or game restrictions), and as such are atheists.

It really comes down to headcanon though. My canon Cousland Warden didn't believe in the Maker -- though he did believe in Andraste, but had high doubts on the authenticity of being Maker-blessed -- and didn't believe in any other religion.

That was my headcanon, so that's really all it came down to. He was an atheist. There was never any source of him proclaiming otherwise in the game when I didn't want him to, and so I could believe that.

Hawke on the other hand... it's up in the air how people would interpet his "So-and-so is with the Maker" statement after the event in Act II.

The paraphrase was unclear in what would actually be said -- though one might expect the comment to be made -- and as it was said doesn't really lend itself to wanting to believe said person is in a better place IMO -- as opposed to actually believing she's there.

But that's tangentially related I feel, and I go on enough tangents already. I'd rather try and minimize how many I do these days.

David Gaider wrote...

 Morrigan's a special case, sure, but I wouldn't call her an atheist. Even if someone else does, she's certainly not the norm.

I'm curious then as to what you would call her, if I might ask.

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas

Maybe not as a defined belief -- which I'd accept -- but one can't say it's not existant at all (and to be clear, I'm not saying that's what you're saying).

Thedas is a game world that we're supposed to treat as a real world -- real in the sense that we can view it as a standalone society, rather then simply viewing it as data constructs. I don't mean to say we should confuse fantasy with reality.

If we're going to treat it as a real world -- I do, anyway -- then atheism as we know it is sure to exist, surely. Thedas may view those type of people differently, but they're sure to exist. No society is comprised entirely of people that believe in one religion or another.

David Gaider wrote...

Fair enough?

Good enough for me.

For now....



Now, to separate what I'm saying in response to the topic itself and certain posters.

*SEPARATOR LINE HERE*
===============================================================================
*SEPARATOR LINE HERE*

I'm going to begin long diatribe of possible wrongness now. I have nothing better to do then make myself look like a possible fool.

Maybe...

Atheists as we know the term today probably existed in the Middle Ages. You don't need to profess you're an atheist to actually be an atheist. But that's a matter I am admittedly ignorant of, and it's not like I can question the souls of men and women that have long since been dead, now can I?

Medieval Islam recognized the idea of being an atheist, though they tended to refer to them as simply heretics or non-believers, rather then people of a different belief.

Nevertheless, I'd say that while definitions differed, the fact that they would accuse anyone who didn't believe in their religion -- and since we can't question them, the possibility exists that some people did refuse the belief in any higher power.

One should note that philosophical atheism existed as early as the 5th and 6th centuries. And atheism itself as we're all no doubt aware draws its name from a Greek word that means "godless, denying the gods, ungodly". So one could argue on those grounds alone that there were people that did refute the notion of any sort of higher power.

Again, I'm not savvy on real world history in great detail -- and considering I went to a high school that tried to condense 5000 years of history in 9 months for my freshman year, that's understandable and lamentable really -- so I'm almost certainly missing a lot of history or getting a lot wrong here.

But atheism has probably always existed even in minute examples, even if it's only recently been accepted and defined. I think it would be foolish to say it never has existed. Ancient playwrights toyed with the idea of that belief, writing characters that displayed such a refusal in gods or deities of any sort (Euripedes and Aristophanes).

So I think we should be allowed to express atheism, or at most have lines spoken that can be taken either way. Perhaps Hawke's was meant to be that. I'd like to think so. But the paraphrase could've been clearer on that front, on whether it was an actual belief or a hopeful belief.

And..... done. Now to wait and see just how much of an ignorant fool I have made myself appear

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juillet 2012 - 03:27 .

[MerinTB]

David Gaider wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Chalk it up to my imperfect interpretation of the game, but when I played it I thought the game was making it vague and unclear as to whether Andraste was merely a person or really a supernatural figure, on whether the maker was real at all, really a god if he ever existed, etc.  Every point of disbelieve about whether elves ever had more magic or longer lives, about what "really" created the darkspawn...

a large portion of my love of DA:O was the ambiguity of the world.  I thought it was, at worst, being left unanswered but to be revealed in later games, OR, at best, that these would remain questions of faith and not truth.

So it's at least, at the very least, partially my fault for becoming enamored with the game for something you still seem to be saying it was never meant to be.

Doesn't make the realization any less devastating, personally... on an "attachement to a piece of entertainment" level, at least.

So... you're interpreting what I'm saying is that that the Maker is real? That not allowing the player to express atheistic belief is the same as the setting having no ambiguity regarding the truth of divinity?

I really don't know what to say about that.

Not really.  I was saying that I may have been drawing far too much from what could have been throwaway (or even missed in editing) lines of dialog in the game, and that my interpretation of things in Origins such as the Cult of Andraste, and that I am to blame (to some degree, if not entirely) for seeing more ambiguity and freedom of interpretation in the game's lore than the game may have intended to allow.

When you stated, quite emphatically it read to me, that there never was and never would be atheism in Thedas, and that anyone seeing such was misreading as much as someone believing that Hawke was being presented as a devout altar boy for the chantry, I took that to mean quite literally that no characters in the game questioned the existance of a god or gods.

Your later clarification seemed to shift my understanding of what you meant to actually be closer to "we weren't writing for non-believing characters, nor did we write non-believing characters into the game for there to be an established "there are no gods at all" movement in Thedas.

Feel free to help correct me further if I am still off.

In the end I THOUGHT I was taking any blame from you (and the DA:O team) and trying to place it mostly on myself.  You COULD take that for me apologizing for jumping to conclusions - and how, if at all, you want to respond to THAT is up to you entirely.

[jillabender]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote…

jillabender wrote...

If I remember correctly, the PC in Origins never has the opportunity to disavow any belief in a higher power whatsoever. He or she does have the opportunity to express doubts about the Chantry and the Maker, but as you've pointed out, those are two quite separate things.

The Human Noble can openly say in the Origin story they don't believe in the Maker.

Sorry, I should have phrased that more clearly – I meant to say that while the PC can indeed deny belief in the Maker, he or she never has the chance to say that he or she believes that there is no higher power at all.

Modifié par jillabender, 10 juillet 2012 - 03:24 .

[TEWR]

jillabender wrote...

Sorry, I should have phrased that more clearly – I meant to say that while the PC can indeed deny belief in the Maker, he or she never has the chance to say that he or she believes that there is no higher power at all.

Ah my fault on misunderstanding your post.

[LobselVith8]

jillabender wrote...

Sorry, I should have phrased that more clearly - I meant to say that while the PC can indeed deny belief in the Maker, he or she never has the chance to say that he or she believes that there is no higher power at all.

While The Warden isn't given the opportunity to say there isn't a higher power in the same way that Morrigan does in her conversations with Leliana, it seems to be quite a stretch to deny that it allows for the protagonist to voice an atheist perspective. I don't see the Andrastian nations full of a myriad of other human religions to choose from. It's limited pretty much to the Chantry of Andraste in most human societies. The line in the Human Noble Origin allows the player to voice disbelief in the Maker and RP as an atheist protagonist in the narrative, which is apparently no longer an option in this franchise, like many other things.

[jillabender]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jillabender wrote...

Sorry, I should have phrased that more clearly – I meant to say that while the PC can indeed deny belief in the Maker, he or she never has the chance to say that he or she believes that there is no higher power at all.

Ah my fault on misunderstanding your post.

No worries. By the way, I enjoyed your "long diatribe of possible wrongness" – I don't think your disclaimer was needed at all!

LobselVith8 wrote…

While The Warden isn't given the opportunity to say there isn't a higher power in the same way that Morrigan does in her conversations with Leliana, it seems to be quite a stretch to deny that it allows for the protagonist to voice an atheist perspective. I don't see the Andrastian nations full of a myriad of other human religions to choose from. It's limited pretty much to the Chantry of Andraste in most human societies. The line in the Human Noble Origin allows the player to voice disbelief in the Maker and RP as an atheist protagonist in the narrative, which is apparently no longer an option in this franchise, like many other things.

You make a good point – there's nothing in Origins to say that the PC couldn't have beliefs similar to Morrigan's, and that does seem to be a possibility that's largely absent from DA2.

Modifié par jillabender, 10 juillet 2012 - 03:52 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

I find it surprising that atheism would be so rare, seeing as every single god is described by official religious doctrine as being capricious and selfish ****s. I mean, even medieval theologians at least tried to emphasize benevolence.

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

It's a treat to watch two talented writers argue in a text environment.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 10 juillet 2012 - 05:00 .

[Sir JK]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm going to begin long diatribe of possible wrongness now. I have nothing better to do then make myself look like a possible fool.

Maybe...

Atheists as we know the term today probably existed in the Middle Ages. You don't need to profess you're an atheist to actually be an atheist. But that's a matter I am admittedly ignorant of, and it's not like I can question the souls of men and women that have long since been dead, now can I?

Medieval Islam recognized the idea of being an atheist, though they tended to refer to them as simply heretics or non-believers, rather then people of a different belief.

Nevertheless, I'd say that while definitions differed, the fact that they would accuse anyone who didn't believe in their religion -- and since we can't question them, the possibility exists that some people did refuse the belief in any higher power.

One should note that philosophical atheism existed as early as the 5th and 6th centuries. And atheism itself as we're all no doubt aware draws its name from a Greek word that means "godless, denying the gods, ungodly". So one could argue on those grounds alone that there were people that did refute the notion of any sort of higher power.

Again, I'm not savvy on real world history in great detail -- and considering I went to a high school that tried to condense 5000 years of history in 9 months for my freshman year, that's understandable and lamentable really -- so I'm almost certainly missing a lot of history or getting a lot wrong here.

But atheism has probably always existed even in minute examples, even if it's only recently been accepted and defined. I think it would be foolish to say it never has existed. Ancient playwrights toyed with the idea of that belief, writing characters that displayed such a refusal in gods or deities of any sort (Euripedes and Aristophanes).

So I think we should be allowed to express atheism, or at most have lines spoken that can be taken either way. Perhaps Hawke's was meant to be that. I'd like to think so. But the paraphrase could've been clearer on that front, on whether it was an actual belief or a hopeful belief.

And..... done. Now to wait and see just how much of an ignorant fool I have made myself appear

You're not entirely wrong actually. Disbelief in higher powers has existed just as long as faith has. But atheism as such has not. The difference between the two is minute, but crucial. Atheism as we know it, is not just not believing in a higher power, it's denoting that as a trait of your identity. You openly declare, I do not believe in higher powers.

The reason that it's a fairly modern thing to do so is not that non believing was untolerated (it was at times, but most of the time people just shrugged their shoulders and brushed it off) but that by doing so you openly foreswore yourself from society. A self inflicted excommunication, if you will. By declaring yourself a non-believer you firmly dictate that you are not part of the larger societal group. The modern equalient would be to foreswear your ethnicity, belief in human rights or the identity of a modern person. It's essentially painting yourself as a pariah, the odd one out.

In a world where the individual is small, the group matters a lot more. So while there were people we'd today identify as atheists, they did not. That they did not believe wasn't something they declared as part of their persona. It was just a small quirk. They still identified themselves as part of the social group that did believe.

So that's why disbelief and atheism are nore entirely alike. And indeed, our characters should be allowed to express disbelief. Whether it's minute or all encompassing is best left unsaid.

[lx_theo]

jillabender wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote…

jillabender wrote...

If I remember correctly, the PC in Origins never has the opportunity to disavow any belief in a higher power whatsoever. He or she does have the opportunity to express doubts about the Chantry and the Maker, but as you've pointed out, those are two quite separate things.

The Human Noble can openly say in the Origin story they don't believe in the Maker.

Sorry, I should have phrased that more clearly – I meant to say that while the PC can indeed deny belief in the Maker, he or she never has the chance to say that he or she believes that there is no higher power at all.

Then they should add the same phrasing as in DA:O. I was general and left up for interpretation to the Player. When i saw the line, I thought it made my character Atheist. As far as I'm concerned, that's enough to allow the option, to people who want it and let those who don't think of it as something else.

[lx_theo]

David Gaider wrote...

Ellestor wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

There is no such thing as atheism in Thedas.

I seem to recall you stating more than once on the old pre-BSN Dragon Age fora that gods are not explicitly extant or absent (thus maintaining the notion of having faith in a god, which you considered absent from settings like the Forgotten Realms), thereby allowing beliefs to vary as they do on Earth, but here you seem to be saying that non-faith just doesn't happen for some reason. What sorcery is this?

David Gaider wrote...

It's not a common thing.

But that's quite another statement...

I wouldn't expect it to be a common thing in an effectively medieval society, but it's at least common enough to show us a bunch of it. Morrigan had a positive belief in neither the Maker nor apparently any other deific figure, the qunari apparently have no deity, and a good handful of scattered NPCs are openly skeptical of the Maker (even aside from the Dalish and qunari).

You say nothing's changed, so I wonder then what you actually mean by there being ‘no such thing as atheism in Thedas’. I can only assume, given all the examples of atheistic characters, that you are for some reason thinking of it as something more than not having a belief in a deity.

This is the point where I rub my temples and wonder why I even bothered at all.

There was no "proof" of God, and yet in medieval Europe the fact that He existed was beyond question. A given person might hate Him or reject Him, but that does not mean He didn't exist. Sure, there might be exceptional individuals, but it was not a thing.

This is also the case in Thedas. And the idea of getting into a discussion of what Morrigan or the Qunari is irrelevant in the context of how it should impact the player-- which, from the perspective of the writing team, is not at all. It's not one of the possible viewpoints that we offer, though we also don't go out of our way to do the opposite either, and we've no intention of changing that.

And that's where I'm going to leave it. If someone wants to take this as "but this was clearly a theme of the entire story whether you meant it or not and if you are changing that approach even though you just said you weren't then CLEARLY ALL IS LOST"... well, knock yourselves out. 

This is where I think the argument falls short. The history and setting Thedas is based off of has been manipulated for the allowance of Gay and Lesbian relationships before, why not now? Why can't the people of Thedas simply look down on the idea rather than outright cut the possibility

Really, I'd imagine people who want this would be satisfied with some vague comment like, "The Maker, you say? Well, we all have out beliefs, don't we?", "I think I'll stick to my own beliefs, thanks",  or something else not quite so terribly thought up in the spot. 

It's also not so much about being religious, but having the character forced into a specific religion. Religion are largely based in philosophical and moral ideologies that force traits of a personality on your character whether you like it or not. Being pigeonholed into dialogue that forces your character to submit to a belief system you don't want them to effects the entire Role Playing experience, not just some miniscual details on the side.

The Player Character should be either written to never come off as identifying much if at all with any belief system in the game without your express consent in the dialogue tree. As much as I liked Dragon Age 2 (I was one of the people trying to help calm the outbursts after it was released because I thought they had unfairly judged the game), this sort of dialogue - with religion simply being a more notable one - dampened the Role Playing experience considerably.

[Direwolf0294]

Wow, David's responses to this really, really surprise me. I always thought one of the great things about the DA universe was that while there was this major religion in the world that had a lot of impact on the story and lore of the games it was never, "yes, there is a god and this is it". It wasn't like the Light or Elune in World of Warcraft, it wasn't like the various gods and goddesses that inhabit the universe of Malazan Book of the Fallen. Yes, there may be a Maker, a lot of people certainly think so, but also there's an equal chance there may not be and there's quite a few people out there who don't believe in him. In both games the players if given numerous chances to say they don't believe in the Maker and that's great that that option was there. You also run into quite a few characters who don't believe in the Maker either. I was just playing some DA2 before because I was bored and Aveline straight out says that she's never really believed in the Maker.

The only thing I can think of is that David and others, myself included when it comes to interpreting some peoples responses, are getting the meaning of atheism confused. There's a difference between a fantasy world that has actual confirmed gods in it and people just not choosing to follow them and a fantasy world where there's religion but no one really know whether or not that gods are real and people straight up refusing to believe they do exist. The Dragon Age universe clearly leans more towards tha latter. Unless the Maker or one of the Elves gods makes a direct appearance and talks to the player in DA3 then an atheist option should be available.

[Achkas]

I don't mean any disrespect, but this thread has lost me a lot of faith in this series and its artistic direction. Of course your friends such as Morrigan critiquing the Maker would have an impact on the protagonist's point of view. And of course someone could believe in the existence of the fade and magic and the supernatural without believing in a creator deity, which I would class as atheism (just like someone accepting quantum physics and all the crazy stuff in this universe could be an atheist). I may just stick with Mass Effect from here on out. Thanks for the good times with DA:O and the novels.

Modifié par Achkas, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:33 .

[Ellestor]

 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

One should note that philosophical atheism existed as early as the 5th and 6th centuries.

BCE, it's important to note given the 1000-1200 year difference. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] 

Achkas wrote...

I don't mean any disrespect, but this thread has lost me a lot of faith in this series and its artistic direction. Of course your friends such as Morrigan critiquing the Maker would have an impact on the protagonist's point of view. And of course someone could believe in the existence of the fade and magic and the supernatural without believing in a creator deity, which I would class as atheism (just like someone accepting quantum physics and all the crazy stuff in this universe could be an atheist). I may just stick with Mass Effect from here on out. Thanks for the good times with DA:O and the novels.

I can only assume that a lot of other things must have been wearing you down about the series up to now, because although I agree with you and others in the thread that David's comments don't seem to square with how everything was presented in Origins, bailing as a fan because of it seems strange on its own.

Modifié par Ellestor, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:24 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The way I am reading David Gaider's comments, and the way that I have always looked at religion in the DA-verse from the PC perspective, is that powerful beings exist. Whether or not they are viewed as gods by the individual, and thus ascribed a faith and worship of the divine (they are prayed to, seen as creators or as beings that respond directly to sacrifice and entreaty, etc), is left for the player to decide for his/her character. 

So for Thedas and beyond, the Maker, the Old Gods, Fen'Harel, Mythal, and the like, all exist, or existed in some way, shape or form. Some NPCs put their faith and trust in these beings, and so can the PC. The existence of these beings is acknowledged, but calling them and treating them as gods, as something to be worshipped, is flexible based on how you want to role-play.

Yes, Hawke makes some comments about the Maker, or uses his name as a battlecry/curse. So does Aveline, who, in conversation with Hawke, indicates that she is not a follower, or at least not a devout one (the specific dialogue escapes me right now). That's acknowledgement of the entity's place in the world, though not necessarily an admission of personal faith. I would imagine that when a character is faced with battling an Archdemon, he/she may not be able to deny that such a creature (who was once an Old God) exists. But, that character can, when role-played, view that creature as something far removed from where he/she may choose to place his/her devotion, if devotion is to be doled out at all.

EDIT - Cleaned up my pre-caffeine typos

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:49 .

[Ellestor]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So for Thedas and beyond, the Maker, the Old Gods, Fen'Harel, Mythal, and the like, all exist, or existed in some way, shape or form.

How so for the Maker, Fen'Harel, and Mythal? But specifically the Maker because it's the only creator deity on offer--anything else may as well be Superman.

[Direwolf0294]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The way I am reading David Gaider's comments, and the way that I have always looked at religion in the DA-versefrom the PC perspective, is that powerful beings exist. Whether or not they are viewed as gods by the individual, and thus ascribed a faith and worship of the divine (they are prayed to, seen as creators or as being that respond directly to sacrifice and entreaty, etc), is left for the player to decide for his/her character. 

So for Thedas and beyond, the Maker, the Old Gods, Fen'Harel, Mythal, and the like, all exist, or existed in some way, shape or form. Some NPCs put their faith and trust in these beings, and so can the PC. The existence of these beings is acknowledged, but calling them and treating them as gods, as something to be worshipped, is flexible based on how you want to role-play.

Yes, Hawke makes some comments about the Maker, or uses his name as a battlecry/curse. So does Aveline, who, in conversation with Hawke, indicates that she is not a follower, or at least not a devout one (the specific dialogue escapes me right now). That's acknowledgement of the entity's place in the world, though not necessarily an admission of personal faith. I would imagine that when a character is faced with battling an Archdemon, he/she may not be able to deny that such a creature (who was once an Old God) exists. But, that character can, when role-played, view that creature as not something far removed from where he/she may choose to place his/her devotion, if devotion is to be doled out at all.

This is all well and good, and sort of what I was talking about at the end of my post, but the problem is that the games never tell you 100% that characters such as the Maker actually do exist. They might, but both the player and the player character don't know for sure and as such there should be an option for them to express doubt in their existence, not just that they don't follow them.

I myself never thought that BioWare intended for people to take the Maker as being real within the context of the DA universe. I actually always thought it was intended for the players to know that the Maker wasn't real and approach their views of the world from that perspective. That the Chantry wasn't 100% right about mages, that there was more to the Darkspawn than meets the eye etc. Indeed that view seemed to be supported when it turned out the Darkspawn had ties to the Old Gods and weren't just there because some mages tried to get into the Maker's city. It's admittedly thrown me a bit that David would come straight out and debunk all this. It's like my entire perspective of the DA world has been shaken up.

[whykikyouwhy]

Ellestor wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

So for Thedas and beyond, the Maker, the Old Gods, Fen'Harel, Mythal, and the like, all exist, or existed in some way, shape or form.

How so for the Maker, Fen'Harel, and Mythal? But specifically the Maker because it's the only creator deity on offer--anything else may as well be Superman.

I said "in some way, shape, or form" meaning that the Maker exists/existed for Thedas. Some entity/person/creature was viewed in a specific way, or was wrapped up in lore and perhaps some hyperbole. Perhaps the Maker was never flesh but was spirit, or perhaps he was neither but is just a figment of imagination that became legend and the thing to which all manner of grandiose miracles were attributed. But he is something to the people of Thedas. In a world where ethereal spirits take up the same space as living, breathing mortals, and where dreams can be shaped to become reality, the Maker, Fen'Harel and the like could be anything from demons, to manifestations of magic, to energy and movement. But they are things, albeit intangible (for now?), and they have presence in Thedan society and culture. 

Again, whether or not they are viewed as specific objects/entities of worship, as godlike beings, is up to the NPCs and the PC.

[Fallstar]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The way I am reading David Gaider's comments, and the way that I have always looked at religion in the DA-versefrom the PC perspective, is that powerful beings exist. Whether or not they are viewed as gods by the individual, and thus ascribed a faith and worship of the divine (they are prayed to, seen as creators or as being that respond directly to sacrifice and entreaty, etc), is left for the player to decide for his/her character. 

So for Thedas and beyond, the Maker, the Old Gods, Fen'Harel, Mythal, and the like, all exist, or existed in some way, shape or form. Some NPCs put their faith and trust in these beings, and so can the PC. The existence of these beings is acknowledged, but calling them and treating them as gods, as something to be worshipped, is flexible based on how you want to role-play.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Whilst the PC might not be able to express the outright atheistic viewpoint that these entities do not exist (which makes sense seeing as we have reasonable evidence to suggest that they do exist) that doesn't mean you can't question their divinity, and in the chantry's case question whether or not their teachings are in fact in line with what Andraste wanted (seeing as the chantry was formed 200 years? after the death of Andraste)  or whether Andraste was in fact 'the bride of the maker' at all.

There's plenty of ambiguity left. I personally always played my PC as if the Maker, Elven pantheon and the Old Gods existed, but he didn't worship those entities as deities. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I myself never thought that BioWare intended for people to take the Maker as being real within the context of the DA universe. I actually always thought it was intended for the players to know that the Maker wasn't real and approach their views of the world from that perspective. That the Chantry wasn't 100% right about mages, that there was more to the Darkspawn than meets the eye etc. Indeed that view seemed to be supported when it turned out the Darkspawn had ties to the Old Gods and weren't just there because some mages tried to get into the Maker's city. It's admittedly thrown me a bit that David would come straight out and debunk all this. It's like my entire perspective of the DA world has been shaken up.

I always took it as bits and pieces of religious lore that may or may not be true and has been fun to debate with others. The confirmation or disproof of any of it has not seemed to be important to either DA game. It's just there to flesh out the world and characters, and provide an additional facet of RP goodness.

The only suggestion that religion might be directly important in a future game is the OGB, or any untainted 'Old God' staking a claim for worship. Currently though, not so much. Religion's mostly been taken as fact of life in DA so far, not a focus point of debate (as opposed to certain organisations representing said religion), thus largely irrelevant to the plot.

edit: typo

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:30 .

[Ellestor]

whykikyouwhy,

You seem to be saying these figures definitely exist(ed) because people think (or thought) about them, but unless I've missed or forgotten something, in no way does it seem like the Fade works that way except to the extent that spirits are practiced mimics.

DuskWarden wrote...

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Whilst the PC might not be able to express the outright atheistic viewpoint that these entities do not exist (which makes sense seeing as we have reasonable evidence to suggest that they do exist)

I'm interested.

Modifié par Ellestor, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:04 .

[Fallstar]

Ellestor wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Whilst the PC might not be able to express the outright atheistic viewpoint that these entities do not exist (which makes sense seeing as we have reasonable evidence to suggest that they do exist)

Like?

For the maker, the black city exists. If you believe Andraste's powers were divine gifts rather than her being a powerful mage (personally I go with the mage) then there's that as well. Admittedly scant evidence, but it's there.

For the Old Gods, we have the archdemons existing, and conversations with the Architect make it seems highly likely that he actually saw an old god. The fact that a ritual to Dumat works and grants us a magical artifact. And that Corypheus calls out to Dumat, as if he expects him to answer. Finally that whenever Corypheus calls on Dumat to grant him more power, he does so.

As for the elven pantheon, I'm not sure. But Flemeth fits the description of Fen'harel rather well, not that there is any real evidence for such a theory beyond Morrigan's "She is no abomination, she is not even truly human" line. (paraphrased).

None of this is hard evidence (Aside from the Old God stuff). It's just interpretations of what we have seen in game. All of it could easily be explained away. But to me it suggests that these beings exist, not that they are truly divine creators in any way, merely that they are powerful beings which exist.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:06 .

[LobselVith8]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Icesong wrote...

You're talking to me about the context of the dialogue but it really seems like you haven't seen the scene. You don't say "there, there" to yourself. Hawke isn't comforting Merrill; she isn't comforting anyone. She's responding to Merill saying "she's in a better place" by saying "she's with the Maker" when talking about the death of Leandra. No comfort, no social pretense, no way around it.

You're right, I haven't seen the scene. I presumed it was in response to Marethari's death or something (sorry!).

And eeehhhh, ok, yeah, I can see why that would be annoying. But it's no secret I despise the paraphrases system for putting words into your PC's mouth like this. About all I can do is "I substitute the game's interpretation of what Hawke says for what I say she says," because it looks like the system aint gonna change.

Yeah, it seems the bad paraphrasing is here to stay. Annoying is an apt term for that scene. I really disliked that scene with Hawke and Merrill because it removed my agency over the protagonist's beliefs. It makes me feel like Hawke is put into the position of being an Andrastian, no matter how the player feels about it.

[Direwolf0294]

DuskWarden wrote...

Ellestor wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Whilst the PC might not be able to express the outright atheistic viewpoint that these entities do not exist (which makes sense seeing as we have reasonable evidence to suggest that they do exist)

Like?

For the maker, the black city exists. If you believe Andraste's powers were divine gifts rather than her being a powerful mage (personally I go with the mage) then there's that as well. Admittedly scant evidence, but it's there.

For the Old Gods, we have the archdemons existing, and conversations with the Architect make it seems highly likely that he actually saw an old god. The fact that a ritual to Dumat works and grants us a magical artifact. And that Corypheus calls out to Dumat, as if he expects him to answer. Finally that whenever Corypheus calls on Dumat to grant him more power, he does so.

As for the elven pantheon, I'm not sure. But Flemeth fits the description of Fen'harel rather well, not that there is any real evidence for such a theory beyond Morrigan's "She is no abomination, she is not even truly human" line. (paraphrased).

None of this is hard evidence (Aside from the Old God stuff). It's just interpretations of what we have seen in game. All of it could easily be explained away. But to me it suggests that these beings exist, not that they are truly divine creators in any way, merely that they are powerful beings which exist.

The way I see it though is that all this is no different to real world religion and superstitions. People making things up to explain what they can't explain. It's like how people in the middle ages came up with dragons because they found some dinosaur bones and heard some thunder in the sky. In the DA world, people see some magic stuff happening that they can't explain and decide that it must have some sort of divine presence behind it.

Also, while the Old Gods may have existed, and evidence says they did, the problem is that the Maker is considered all powerful. That means that while other beings of power may exist and be worshipped as gods there is only one true god. It's like in real life where you have people worshipping people we know actually exist or existed, such as various cult leaders, but there's people out there, atheists, who don't think God exists. The fact that things that really exist have been worshipped as gods does not mean that atheism is impossible. It all comes down to where you draw the line for what counts as divine, and when you're dealing with a god that's supposedly all powerful how can any other god that's short of all powerful be considered divine?