65 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Can't really see it hapening unless you ditch the basic classes and start of with a specialisation. At least not beyond the usual sidequest stuff.

[Chromie]

CrustyBot wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

YES.  They need to take the HUGE, STUPID wall between gameplay and story, knock it over, pound it to bits, and SET THE BITS ON FIRE.

Underrated post.

10/10, would read again. And again. And again.

Hope BioWare devs would too.

They would never.

[Wifflebottom]

Since there likely won't be race/class based Origins like the first game I think during the story when you choose a spec there could be like a quest line where the pc goes to learn their spec. During these quests your companions wouldn't be with you and you'd be paired up with someone that could act as a mentor: A crow,Templar, or Tevinter Magister would be some examples. I think the only problem arises when people want to respec...

Modifié par Wifflebottom, 01 juillet 2012 - 04:36 .

[robertthebard]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Crazy Eyed One wrote...

Don't blame the Kirkwall Templars for how awesomely skilled Ser Otto is, and that they can never compare to his abilities in sensing stuff.

In all seriousness perhaps not all Templars can actually sense how fragile the Veil is until its actually broken and demony stuff is happening before their eyes also Ser Otto may have a heightened sensitivity to it because his body is compensating for the reduced vision by refining his other senses.

That's the thing though. If it was just Ser Otto, I'd be inclined to agree that it's due to his body heightening his other sense due to his being primarily -- if not entirely -- blind in both eyes.

But the fact that a Templar Warden can sense it as well -- evident in the dialogue option they can pick -- means that Templars should be able to sense the thin Veil. Demons need not be in front of them for them to realize it.

The Veil in Kirkwall is thinner in spades then the Alienage's was, so you'd think that the Templars would be able to easily sense it.

I'm inclined to agree with Wulfram's post, in that the thin Veil was just an excuse made for the justification of insane mages everywhere. As a result, it's created a few inconsistencies/plot holes.

Even Mages are able to sense a thin Veil, IIRC.

Actually, while never directly commented on, it would go a long way to explaining a lot of things.  There has to be a reason that they see Blood Mages behind every shadow, despite the fact that it seemed like there really were.  It could be that some of the more astute did indeed sense the weak veil, but just didn't realize what it was they were sensing, or, and this is the one that I'd prescribe to, it's so intense that they can't pin it down.  AKA Sensory Overload.

[robertthebard]

REAPERS_r_CTHULHU wrote...

robertthebard wrote...


In my study of the martial arts, I would recognize the techniques used that were taught in the art/arts that I studied, and the arts that I have come in contact with while participating in tournaments, strictly amateur, I'm no pro.  However, regarding the analogy, while borderline at best, it's applicable in that actual Templars are trained by the Chantry.  If, for example, you didn't get told that Samson was an ex Templar, would you know by looking at him that he was?  Perhaps the best way to view this is Templars are trained by the Chantry, but templars are people that learned the specialization through other means, and thus aren't visibly recognizeable.  Without visual clues, or close combat situations, I wouldn't expect anyone to notice that I've ever studied a martial art, let alone multiple martial arts.  The same would hold true for templar training, if you're just talking to someone on the street, in the Chantry, what have you, there are no visual or combat clues to indicate that you have templar training.  So I don't expect that anyone would notice, under those conditions, and if they've never fought with, or against a Templar, I don't expect they'd know what it was you were doing anyway.

Nice valid argument, with nice valid reasons to argue. I like you, sir.

Anyways, yes! That's the beauty of all of this! If you are an evil apostate no one would know, true, but we are skepticizing is that, when you are in fights and you are around your squadmates, no one says anything about you using blood magic. If you kill templars or activate blood magic or holy smite around NPC's then they do not even react accordingly.

I want people to run in fear of me when I activate blood magic for no good reason. When I fight and kill mages with my templar abilites, I want the word to get back to the templars and for them to take notice that I have their abilites and induct me or accept me as a member. I want to walk the streets and hear someone say "Hey, isn't that that templar that killed several apostates by himself?"

There are a plethora of implications for this, Sir. I'm not saying that all I need to do is specialize in something and hope that the next person I talk to says something about it, I want it to be more dynamic. The more I use my holy smite or blood magic, the more I want the masses to take notice and comment/open up certain dialogue options.

Probably because I have wondered how people that do play Blood Mages get by with it, from an in game perspective.  I would love for my Spec's to be recognized, but I would prefer it if they were logically recognized, as opposed to "Hey, I don't know anything about magic, but you're a Blood Mage".  This with the understanding that, despite the lack of logic, Hawke can be the Champion of Kirkwall, and it has to be that way for the story.  There are most certainly people there that should notice, and should point it out/take action on that knowledge.  It's both unfortunate, and necessary that don't, so it's a handwave situation where people with experience don't notice things they should.  It would also make writing that particular branch extremely difficult, if they had to go with recognizing Blood Mage in particular.

However, things like the Assassin Spec shouldn't be too hard to acknowledge, especially if you had to actually assassinate somebody to earn it, or the training thing that was mentioned above.  I don't know why they moved away from that in DA 2, as it made perfect sense as to how the Warden acquired some, or all of the Specs.

Modifié par robertthebard, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:52 .

[LolaLei]

That would be cool, so if you played as a blood Mage it would be recognised and if you played as a healer that too, would also be recognised... like maybe people would approach you injured and ask you to heal them or whatever. I really like the idea of the Templar example you gave OP. I'm all for class and specialisations being recognised.

[Silfren]

LolaLei wrote...

That would be cool, so if you played as a blood Mage it would be recognised and if you played as a healer that too, would also be recognised... like maybe people would approach you injured and ask you to heal them or whatever. I really like the idea of the Templar example you gave OP. I'm all for class and specialisations being recognised.

This.  It would be VERY interesting for a player's class to have a direct affect on quests, as well as the ambient environment.  Say, for example, you've developed a reputation as a healer, and this opens up a questline that leads to a decision point with a potentially profound effect later on.  Maybe you have to decide to whether to heal or not heal a prominent NPC that has been an obstacle to your chosen alignment, or something.  Or your companions are dramatically impacted by your choice.  Same way with the blood mage spec.  It'd be a nice change to spend time actually defending yourself against NPCs trying to take you into custody or exact vigilante justice on you.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Crazy Eyed One wrote...

Don't blame the Kirkwall Templars for how awesomely skilled Ser Otto is, and that they can never compare to his abilities in sensing stuff.

In all seriousness perhaps not all Templars can actually sense how fragile the Veil is until its actually broken and demony stuff is happening before their eyes also Ser Otto may have a heightened sensitivity to it because his body is compensating for the reduced vision by refining his other senses.

That's the thing though. If it was just Ser Otto, I'd be inclined to agree that it's due to his body heightening his other sense due to his being primarily -- if not entirely -- blind in both eyes.

But the fact that a Templar Warden can sense it as well -- evident in the dialogue option they can pick -- means that Templars should be able to sense the thin Veil. Demons need not be in front of them for them to realize it.

The Veil in Kirkwall is thinner in spades then the Alienage's was, so you'd think that the Templars would be able to easily sense it.

I'm inclined to agree with Wulfram's post, in that the thin Veil was just an excuse made for the justification of insane mages everywhere. As a result, it's created a few inconsistencies/plot holes.

Even Mages are able to sense a thin Veil, IIRC.

Maybe it's a question of how widespread the thin Veil is in Kirkwall?  I mean, it's city-wide.  Can fish sense water?

Eh, I got nothin'.

[withneelandi]

In the case of blood mages it is necessary for the game to make sense.

In DA2 you could happily wonder around, casting blood magic left right and center and then effectively hunt down blood mages on behalf of the templars with no one mentioning that there was anything unusual about the situatiuon.

The next dragon age needs to avoid this sort of nonsense. It would be nice if we got some class specific quests and such or if people acted more suspiciously towards mages, in awe of champions etc, but the basics of not having class contradict plot elements is something that needs to be done.

[REAPERS_r_CTHULHU]

I was thinking that your partners could take more notice of your specializations, which could have either good or adverse affects on their disposition towards you.

I believe this happened a little bit in DA:O with Allistair... I'm not sure if it actually did but I for some reason, faintly remember him mentioning something about you being a blood mage or following a blood mage.

In an interview, I believe Laidlaw said that he wants things to be so customizable for players that you can go to a tavern and start your own blues band.

I say, we don't have to start our own blues band if our specialization choices had real world implications. Such as being able to talk to blood mages and help them fight against templars, or being hunted down by templars (instead of fighting blood mages while you, too, are a blood mage), or getting jobs from the templars to hunt down blood mages.

[REAPERS_r_CTHULHU]

robertthebard wrote...

REAPERS_r_CTHULHU wrote...

robertthebard wrote...


In my study of the martial arts, I would recognize the techniques used that were taught in the art/arts that I studied, and the arts that I have come in contact with while participating in tournaments, strictly amateur, I'm no pro.  However, regarding the analogy, while borderline at best, it's applicable in that actual Templars are trained by the Chantry.  If, for example, you didn't get told that Samson was an ex Templar, would you know by looking at him that he was?  Perhaps the best way to view this is Templars are trained by the Chantry, but templars are people that learned the specialization through other means, and thus aren't visibly recognizeable.  Without visual clues, or close combat situations, I wouldn't expect anyone to notice that I've ever studied a martial art, let alone multiple martial arts.  The same would hold true for templar training, if you're just talking to someone on the street, in the Chantry, what have you, there are no visual or combat clues to indicate that you have templar training.  So I don't expect that anyone would notice, under those conditions, and if they've never fought with, or against a Templar, I don't expect they'd know what it was you were doing anyway.

Nice valid argument, with nice valid reasons to argue. I like you, sir.

Anyways, yes! That's the beauty of all of this! If you are an evil apostate no one would know, true, but we are skepticizing is that, when you are in fights and you are around your squadmates, no one says anything about you using blood magic. If you kill templars or activate blood magic or holy smite around NPC's then they do not even react accordingly.

I want people to run in fear of me when I activate blood magic for no good reason. When I fight and kill mages with my templar abilites, I want the word to get back to the templars and for them to take notice that I have their abilites and induct me or accept me as a member. I want to walk the streets and hear someone say "Hey, isn't that that templar that killed several apostates by himself?"

There are a plethora of implications for this, Sir. I'm not saying that all I need to do is specialize in something and hope that the next person I talk to says something about it, I want it to be more dynamic. The more I use my holy smite or blood magic, the more I want the masses to take notice and comment/open up certain dialogue options.

Probably because I have wondered how people that do play Blood Mages get by with it, from an in game perspective.  I would love for my Spec's to be recognized, but I would prefer it if they were logically recognized, as opposed to "Hey, I don't know anything about magic, but you're a Blood Mage".  This with the understanding that, despite the lack of logic, Hawke can be the Champion of Kirkwall, and it has to be that way for the story.  There are most certainly people there that should notice, and should point it out/take action on that knowledge.  It's both unfortunate, and necessary that don't, so it's a handwave situation where people with experience don't notice things they should.  It would also make writing that particular branch extremely difficult, if they had to go with recognizing Blood Mage in particular.

However, things like the Assassin Spec shouldn't be too hard to acknowledge, especially if you had to actually assassinate somebody to earn it, or the training thing that was mentioned above.  I don't know why they moved away from that in DA 2, as it made perfect sense as to how the Warden acquired some, or all of the Specs.

Exactly the way I feel. In DA2, my speicializations felt unearned... they felt flat. Mainly because you had them from the start, you just KNEW them. You didn't have to find them, you didn't have to practically strangle an NPC to get the secret to being a templar, it was simply "there". Reminds me of a Lovecraft reference on the Old Gods.

If they brought back the fact that you had to EARN these specializations, then it would make NPC's noticing them a LOT easier story-wise.

Say I just proved myself to the chantry's templars, and now I can begin my templar training. My task is to hunt down a dangerous circle escapee who has resorted to blood magic for running away. I get to his hideout and I come to this dynamic part where , if I was a mage just doing an odd-job for the chantry, can team up with this blood mage to hunt down the templars who ordered his capture/death and help him escape in return for the knowledge of blood magic. I now have two options kill him and collect my reward (remember this would be for a mage playthrough without seeking templar reward for right now) or help him, gain notoriety with the templars and people for helping a blood mage. Now for the templar-seeking warrior playthrough you can either feel pitty and let him go and tell them your job is done, or just kill him and collect your rightful place as a templar. The people hear of your deeds and people take recognition of your new place as a templar, feared by mages and loved by the mundanes.

This, right here, is a prime example of how Bioware could make a good game, great.

[Plaintiff]

It might be nice, but I don't consider it necessary. People should not be able to tell your specialisation just by looking at you anyway.

[Midz]

withneelandi wrote...

In the case of blood mages it is necessary for the game to make sense.

In DA2 you could happily wonder around, casting blood magic left right and center and then effectively hunt down blood mages on behalf of the templars with no one mentioning that there was anything unusual about the situatiuon.

The next dragon age needs to avoid this sort of nonsense. It would be nice if we got some class specific quests and such or if people acted more suspiciously towards mages, in awe of champions etc, but the basics of not having class contradict plot elements is something that needs to be done.

 There are limits  to what  is  possible within a game  and  what  is  possible  from a cost perspective .

  What  i find  hard  to reconcile  is  the there is  no RP with  the  inability to do so  by  some players in Kirkwall.
 You shoudnt  be  throwing  magic  around  speccially  blood magic  or should be  instant  death  in sight of  the Templars .

   Whenever  play  any  type mage  I  realise  I am in  a rather anti mage  city .I never  use  magic   in daylight in  the  open  as most play is  in  Kirkwall    does  make it  hard .But  that  is    playing  a  role  within  the  way  the  game  is  set .

 A blood mage  should  not walk   around  kirkwall throwing  spells  unless  you  just  want hack slash  game .If  consider as  RP would be suicidal .

 Probably should  have  some system   that  add points     when use   magic  publicly  reach  a certain level   the rest game  you  see from a cell .That  would  be .simple to  include .

[AkiKishi]

withneelandi wrote...

In the case of blood mages it is necessary for the game to make sense.

In DA2 you could happily wonder around, casting blood magic left right and center and then effectively hunt down blood mages on behalf of the templars with no one mentioning that there was anything unusual about the situatiuon.

The next dragon age needs to avoid this sort of nonsense. It would be nice if we got some class specific quests and such or if people acted more suspiciously towards mages, in awe of champions etc, but the basics of not having class contradict plot elements is something that needs to be done.

They never should have let people be bloodmages in DA2. In DA you have a reason why people will leave you alone. In DA2 you don't. Same with mages to a lesser degree. It makes no sense that the PC mage gets treated differently just because they are a player character.

[CrabbyCrackers]

I agree. Being the most hated, feared type of mage should never of been aloud if it wasnt going to be recognized. Fenris should of out right tried to kill you and left u for good and anders should of been instant rival. Merrill on the other hand would of been bff under this common thread. Aveline verric izzy maybe would of stayed in the middle.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

It might be nice, but I don't consider it necessary. People should not be able to tell your specialisation just by looking at you anyway.

Not by looking at you, no.  But it does stand to reason that if you have templar abilities, nearby mages are going to stand up and take notice if magical fields are being canceled, and pinpoint the person causing it.  I would imagine a mage can probably sense such a disruption in a similar way that templars can sense magic.  Likewise, while no one would recognize you as a blood mage while you were just standing about, they would definitely notice if a person was flashing a knife and cutting into their own flesh, then causing magick-y things to happen. 

[Kidd]

I'd prefer if we only get a few specialisations if that means the specs could be noticed. The only issue would be to choose which ones. Blood mage is certainly interesting and can lead to a lot of nice scenarios. But not every one will want to role play blood mages when they roll a mage. What would the second one be, if we imagine there would be two specs for each class? Spirit healer? That's still a pretty big thing. But leaving it out means it's not on the table at all. Dalish magic spec? Force magic?

And that's not even delving into the other classes. Rogue might be easy since the only one I can imagine could have real plot relevance would be bard, and for the second one I imagine it'd be easier to find one that fits well. I could be wrong of course. But for warriors... we'll probably want templars, no? Or should the templars not be joinable since they'll be a big faction of their own? Reavers are pretty cool, will we have those? Berserkers? Champions?

Difficult choices of priorities...

CrustyBot wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

YES.  They need to take the HUGE, STUPID wall between gameplay and story, knock it over, pound it to bits, and SET THE BITS ON FIRE.

Underrated post.

10/10, would read again. And again. And again.

Hope BioWare devs would too.

I don't usually agree with you, but this time I can't do anything but add this; Go go! 

[withneelandi]

There is a line of dialogue from Anders in da2 along the lines of "If someone becomes a blood mage they have to look a demon in the eye and accept their offer" but alas the rest of the game seems to have forgotten that detail.

Becoming a blood mage is supposed to be a life altering choice to become something thats feared and despised, this was true in Da:O but in da2 where the issue of blood magic was far more central to the plot of the game it was a case of "click here to be a blood mage".

While there was no in game consequences to being a blood mage in origins either the game at least made the player make the deal with the demon to unlock the specialisation.

The most hilarious bit was that a someone who had stood in front of the entire order of templars using pretty epic blood magic could be made viscount by the order at the end of the game.

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It might be nice, but I don't consider it necessary. People should not be able to tell your specialisation just by looking at you anyway.

Not by looking at you, no.  But it does stand to reason that if you have templar abilities, nearby mages are going to stand up and take notice if magical fields are being canceled, and pinpoint the person causing it.  I would imagine a mage can probably sense such a disruption in a similar way that templars can sense magic.  Likewise, while no one would recognize you as a blood mage while you were just standing about, they would definitely notice if a person was flashing a knife and cutting into their own flesh, then causing magick-y things to happen. 

Perhaps.

But in DA2's case, other blood mages were running all over Hightown at night and Hawke was the only one dealing with them.

I don't find it surprising or immersion-breaking that Hawke is not identified as a blood magic user. Kirkwall's templars are clearly incompetent. Given Meredith's tendency to accuse anyone and everyone of blood magic, except actual blood mages, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the men under her command simply had no idea what the hell they were supposed to be looking for.

[Plaintiff]

withneelandi wrote...
Becoming a blood mage is supposed to be a life altering choice to become something thats feared and despised, this was true in Da:O

Hardly. Wynne ****ed about it a little, but there were no repurcussions beyond that. In Awakening, learning blood magic was as simple as picking up a book at the store, no demons required.

Hell, you can make Wynne learn blood magic and she doesn't even say anything. You can make Anders a blood mage and you get one throwaway line of dialogue. Not really "life-altering". Morrigan and Velanna don't care either.

Gameplay in the series so far has never supported the notion that you need demons to become a blood mage, or that becoming one changes anything drastically at all.

[REAPERS_r_CTHULHU]

Plaintiff wrote...

withneelandi wrote...
Becoming a blood mage is supposed to be a life altering choice to become something thats feared and despised, this was true in Da:O

Hardly. Wynne ****ed about it a little, but there were no repurcussions beyond that. In Awakening, learning blood magic was as simple as picking up a book at the store, no demons required.

Hell, you can make Wynne learn blood magic and she doesn't even say anything. You can make Anders a blood mage and you get one throwaway line of dialogue. Not really "life-altering". Morrigan and Velanna don't care either.

Gameplay in the series so far has never supported the notion that you need demons to become a blood mage, or that becoming one changes anything drastically at all.

The fact that you can learn it from a book in Awakening, doesn't mean that just anyone can do so. This was probably meant for people who had their warden die, so the devs didn't want to punish you by having to waight to attain it, or they just didn't feel like creating a back story for attaining it, which can show through the complete lack of effort in the second game.

In the game world, it is stated that the only way you can learn it is by: either making a pact with demons, or learning it from a dragon (there's only one account of it), or learning it from another blood mage.

Whether it can be learned from a book, is probably debatable.

But the most common way of learning it, is highly thought to be "accepting" a pact with a demon.

[Nefla]

I would LOVE this, I always love content that recognizes and is slightly different based on my character's race, gender, class, etc...I was excited during the (one line in the entire game) part where Merril is crying over Pol and asks my spirit healin' Hawke to heal him. Tidbits like that scattered throughout the game add to the replay factor for me there were a handful in DA2 but there were quite a few in DA:O and I played through over and over getting new things every time

Modifié par Nefla, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:35 .

[Pzykozis]

REAPERS_r_CTHULHU wrote...

Whether it can be learned from a book, is probably debatable.

Jowan...?

Only thing I'd be slightly confused about with this is how it'd really stretch to rogues, bit of bias as they're my main class I play, but they don't really have a particularly personality and or lifestyle defining specialisation.

[REAPERS_r_CTHULHU]

Pzykozis wrote...

REAPERS_r_CTHULHU wrote...

Whether it can be learned from a book, is probably debatable.

Jowan...?

Only thing I'd be slightly confused about with this is how it'd really stretch to rogues, bit of bias as they're my main class I play, but they don't really have a particularly personality and or lifestyle defining specialisation.

I'm not sure if it states that he learned it from a book, but what I am sure of, though, is that it says he "dabbled with blood magic".

In the world of dragon age, I'm sure the books don't teach you how to use it, rather they teach you how to make a pact with a demon to attain it.

[Milky Way]

Bioware definitely thought about this idea at one point. Look at this disabled scene where Wynne suspects you of being a blood mage all voice-acted: