288 réponses à ce sujet

[Malkeor]

I certainly enjoy the comments on that article though.

[Plutar]

Silent Rage wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nope.
I don't feel I was listened to, I don't feel my concerns were addressed. I feel directly insulted.

Can't please everyone? A minor alteration to rejection, and they would've pleased me and a lot of others, while pleasing the rest with their endings. This notion is false, and BioWare deserve no credit.

All they deserve is a fat one.

They didn't have to release extended endings, but they did.

They also didn't have to make said endings free, but they did.

I understand that choosing not to do either of these actions would've lost Bioware huge amounts of consumer loyalty in the long run. I also realize that the Extended Cut doesn't address all the issues with the original ending.

But don't you think saying they deserve no credit - or a fat one, for that matter - is a little extreme?
At the very least, it's not helping to disprove all the "entitled fanbase" claims thrown at us.

Modifié par Plutar, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:27 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Anthropophobic wrote...

 I keep running into these sorts of articles and forum posts; they're everywhere, and they're written almost as if to cheer us up over the disappointing ending ordeal and to get us to warm up to the developers again.

They make me wonder:  Why does Bioware suddenly deserve our love again for fixing a crappy, rushed ending? (If you can even call the Extended Cut "fixed.") More importantly, why does anyone in the fanbase care? No, I'm not going to buy the next Bioware game, whatever it is; I'm still angry. Stop trying to put a positive spin on this disaster.

Well said.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Plutar wrote...

Silent Rage wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nope.
I don't feel I was listened to, I don't feel my concerns were addressed. I feel directly insulted.

Can't please everyone? A minor alteration to rejection, and they would've pleased me and a lot of others, while pleasing the rest with their endings. This notion is false, and BioWare deserve no credit.

All they deserve is a fat one.

They didn't have to release extended endings, but they did.

They also didn't have to make said endings free, but they did.

I understand that choosing not to do either of these actions would've lost Bioware huge amounts of consumer loyalty in the long run. I also realize that the Extended Cut doesn't address all the issues with the original ending.

But don't you think saying they deserve no credit - or a fat one, for that matter - is a little extreme?
At the very least, it's not helping to disprove all the "entitled fanbase" claims thrown at us.

You're deeply mistaken if you think they didn't have to release the EC they absolutely had to, a legion of upset fans, fans that just weeks prior would gladly fork out the dough for every thing related to ME now threatening and engaging in boycots of EA and BW, EC was a financial decision the money they lose in the long run forced them to make it.

[Zulmoka531]

They do deserve credit. But I've said this before and I'll continue to. This whole ordeal was dealt with very poorly. The EC helped cover the wound, but the sting of it will last for a while.

Dragon Age 2, and many aspects of ME3 have shown just how much Bioware has begun to change. I don't wish them death, nothing of the sort. And it goes beyond nostalgia when I say this, but I'd love for the "old" Bioware to come back. The one who I used to pre-order from a year in advance.

[Geneaux486]

Bioware can't be given enough credit for the trouble they went to.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I'll give them points for trying at least, and making what's there a bit more coherent. No points for going in this ridiculous direction to begin with however, the villain should next dictate how you win, period.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:37 .

[Anthropophobic]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bioware can't be given enough credit for the trouble they went to.

But only enough to make up for the credit they lost when they decided not to ship the game with an ending that would satisfy more than 1% of the fanbase.

Even if we assume the Extended Cut fixed everything (which it didn't), it should have been in the game from launch. So negative credit for Bioware.

[Plutar]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Plutar wrote...

Silent Rage wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nope.
I don't feel I was listened to, I don't feel my concerns were addressed. I feel directly insulted.

Can't please everyone? A minor alteration to rejection, and they would've pleased me and a lot of others, while pleasing the rest with their endings. This notion is false, and BioWare deserve no credit.

All they deserve is a fat one.

They didn't have to release extended endings, but they did.

They also didn't have to make said endings free, but they did.

I understand that choosing not to do either of these actions would've lost Bioware huge amounts of consumer loyalty in the long run. I also realize that the Extended Cut doesn't address all the issues with the original ending.

But don't you think saying they deserve no credit - or a fat one, for that matter - is a little extreme?
At the very least, it's not helping to disprove all the "entitled fanbase" claims thrown at us.

You're deeply mistaken if you think they didn't have to release the EC they absolutely had to, a legion of upset fans, fans that just weeks prior would gladly fork out the dough for every thing related to ME now threatening and engaging in boycots of EA and BW, EC was a financial decision the money they lose in the long run forced them to make it.

I guess I meant "didn't have to" in the legal obligation sense rather than the strategic business model sense, sorry for not making that clearer.

My question about the extremism of saying they deserve no credit still stands though.

Modifié par Plutar, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:39 .

[RiouHotaru]

Jenonax wrote...

You talk about horrible storytelling then cite a massive Deus Ex Machine as the only way to conclude a storyline as a good thing?  Go learn what actual good storytelling is and then come back.

Good thing the Crucible and the Catalyst aren't DEMs then.  What're you talking about?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Anthropophobic wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bioware can't be given enough credit for the trouble they went to.

But only enough to make up for the credit they lost when they decided not to ship the game with an ending that would satisfy more than 1% of the fanbase.

Even if we assume the Extended Cut fixed everything (which it didn't), it should have been in the game from launch. So negative credit for Bioware.

Even if the EC was the ending the game shipped with people would still be upset by the DEM and the space magic suddenly introduced at the end of the game

also the entirely new plotline (synthetics vs organics)

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:42 .

[RiouHotaru]

Also, the Crucible is not MacGuffin, it's just a Plot Device. The Catalyst MIGHT be MacGuffin, but it's most likely just another Plot Device.

[Geneaux486]

Anthropophobic wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bioware can't be given enough credit for the trouble they went to.

But only enough to make up for the credit they lost when they decided not to ship the game with an ending that would satisfy more than 1% of the fanbase.

Even if we assume the Extended Cut fixed everything (which it didn't), it should have been in the game from launch. So negative credit for Bioware.

They didn't ship us an incomplete product, we got an ending.  It wasn't well-recieved by most fans, so Bioware retooled it.  There's no negative there, there's just "Hey, we're hearing you, here's a modified ending for free."  As awesome as it would have been for the EC to be in the original game, Bioware can't go back in time and stick it in there.  It had a lot of problems, they fixed it, good on 'em.

[The Paragon Disciple]

The Angry One wrote...

Nope.
I don't feel I was listened to, I don't feel my concerns were addressed. I feel directly insulted.

Can't please everyone? A minor alteration to rejection, and they would've pleased me and a lot of others, while pleasing the rest with their endings. This notion is false, and BioWare deserve no credit.

You had unrealistic demands. The EC was great/good/satisfying for a high majority and if you are still pissed off then be a good consumer and boycott Bioware and its products. Bioware deserves A LOT OF CREDIT

[Anthropophobic]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Anthropophobic wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bioware can't be given enough credit for the trouble they went to.

But only enough to make up for the credit they lost when they decided not to ship the game with an ending that would satisfy more than 1% of the fanbase.

Even if we assume the Extended Cut fixed everything (which it didn't), it should have been in the game from launch. So negative credit for Bioware.

Even if the EC was the ending the game shipped with people would still be upset by the DEM and the space magic suddenly introduced at the end of the game

The whole poopstorm probably wouldn't have happened, though. I just don't like how people think we owe Bioware our respect and loyalty as consumers again because they "fixed" an ending that they clearly didn't put enough effort into at first. The endings were basically exactly the same save for the colors of the explosions. Now that they've changed them a bit, people are like, well at least they got it right 3 months after everyone had bought and played the game, I love you again Bioware.

[The Angry One]

Yeah I'm not even going to bother responding to saracen anymore, his strawmans and insults grow tiresome.

Festilence wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nope.
I don't feel I was listened to, I don't feel my concerns were addressed. I feel directly insulted.

Can't please everyone? A minor alteration to rejection, and they would've pleased me and a lot of others, while pleasing the rest with their endings. This notion is false, and BioWare deserve no credit.

What would that alteration to Rejection be?

Elimination of the Catalyst, most easily by having the dreadnought's destroy the Presidium tower, freeing the Reapers and making them turn against each other, the fleet taking out the "loyalists" led by Harbinger depending on one's EMS.

[SamFlagg]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Anthropophobic wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bioware can't be given enough credit for the trouble they went to.

But only enough to make up for the credit they lost when they decided not to ship the game with an ending that would satisfy more than 1% of the fanbase.

Even if we assume the Extended Cut fixed everything (which it didn't), it should have been in the game from launch. So negative credit for Bioware.

Even if the EC was the ending the game shipped with people would still be upset by the DEM and the space magic suddenly introduced at the end of the game

also the entirely new plotline (synthetics vs organics)

I think if the EC was in the game:

1.) Refusal Choice would've gotten applause for being able to tell the reapers to F off, and seeing a Reapers win ending.

2.) I think most people are actually fine with the crucible, unless ME3 was about finding caches of super weapons, it always seemed logical that there would be a superweapon to be used to win.

3.) Everyone who felt destroy was the best option probably would've been quite happy*

4.) A lot of the outrage would've been limited to the existance of the catalyst and not everything else around that too.

5.) I think if people liked the non synthesis endings they would've just been happy with theirs and said "lolwut" to synthesis.

This is not to say people wouldn't be upset, but Bioware went to launch with less than 2500 EMS.

[Anthropophobic]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Anthropophobic wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bioware can't be given enough credit for the trouble they went to.

But only enough to make up for the credit they lost when they decided not to ship the game with an ending that would satisfy more than 1% of the fanbase.

Even if we assume the Extended Cut fixed everything (which it didn't), it should have been in the game from launch. So negative credit for Bioware.

They didn't ship us an incomplete product, we got an ending.  It wasn't well-recieved by most fans, so Bioware retooled it.  There's no negative there, there's just "Hey, we're hearing you, here's a modified ending for free."  As awesome as it would have been for the EC to be in the original game, Bioware can't go back in time and stick it in there.  It had a lot of problems, they fixed it, good on 'em.

However you look at it, they failed to deliver. Casey Hudson literally said that the endings wouldn't just be like A, B, C, and they were (although I suppose you could make the case that they really were all just A, A, A, so he wasn't totally dishonest--it was just even worse). He said that the solution wouldn't be some off-button for the Reapers, and, in the Destroy ending, that's basically what it is.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...
Elimination of the Catalyst, most easily by having the dreadnought's destroy the Presidium tower, freeing the Reapers and making them turn against each other, the fleet taking out the "loyalists" led by Harbinger depending on one's EMS.

Problem there is we have no idea if destroying that part of the Citadel would even kill the Catalyst (he is, after all, the collecive conciousness of the Reapers, so he'd probably survive anyway).  Furthermore, we have no idea if killing the Catalyst was have any effect on the Reapers' motives and goals. 

However you look at it, they failed to deliver. Casey Hudson literally said that the endings wouldn't just be like A, B, C, and they were (although I suppose you could make the case that they really were all just A, A, A, so he wasn't totally dishonest--it was just even worse). He said that the solution wouldn't be some off-button for the Reapers, and, in the Destroy ending, that's basically what it is.

There was a degree of truth to all of the marketting exagerations that were meant to make us want the game.  Bioware would owe us an apology for that before they'd owe us a brand new ending.  They didn't fail to deliver, they simply underdelivered.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:00 .

[Plutar]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah I'm not even going to bother responding to saracen anymore, his strawmans and insults grow tiresome.

Festilence wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nope.
I don't feel I was listened to, I don't feel my concerns were addressed. I feel directly insulted.

Can't please everyone? A minor alteration to rejection, and they would've pleased me and a lot of others, while pleasing the rest with their endings. This notion is false, and BioWare deserve no credit.

What would that alteration to Rejection be?

Elimination of the Catalyst, most easily by having the dreadnought's destroy the Presidium tower, freeing the Reapers and making them turn against each other, the fleet taking out the "loyalists" led by Harbinger depending on one's EMS.

You might've liked this ending, but I can guarantee many other fans (myself included) would have not.

This really does still reinforcing the "can't please everyone" notion that you claim to be false...

[Geneaux486]

Plutar wrote...

You might've liked this ending, but I can guarantee many other fans (myself included) would have not.

This really does still reinforcing the "can't please everyone" notion that you claim to be false...

Problem is that if there's an ending where the Reapers are defeated without the Crucible, not only would it contradict the previously established strength of the Reapers from as early as the first game, it would also give us a 100% correct choice and three wrong ones, which would contradict the entire theme of choice through the series.  Even refusal isn't a total loss, because the next cycle bests the Reapers.  It's a war that requires sacrifices to win, and there are multiple choices as to what that sacrifice will be.  The ending is what it needs to be to logically follow the rest of the story.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:56 .

[Solmanian]

I can't say I'm surprised that people are still angry about the endings. I think most of them just got used to being angry. The fault in my opinion is with the retakers movement that encouraged unrealistic expectations, going as far as demanding they'll scrap not just the end but the majority of the game plot. The majority of people said that 95% of the game was great and only the last 5min are problematic. For me it wasn't the actual endings, but the executation of the endings that felt like suddenly someone taped the ending of a different game. The original endings didn't measure up to the level of excelense we expect from bioware, ut for the EC "fixed" most of my issues. The original endings needed clarification it they recieved it.

The original control ending was my least favourite option, but it became my favourite after I saw the EC. It was the ultimate paragon (while most people considered it the renegade ending in the original). The original control felt like the choice for powermongers who are willing to catch a tiger by the tail, and risk the galaxy fate. In the new control, you don't wipe out species in a broad stroke (destroy) or destroy th uniqueness of all races in the galaxies by making them "the same" (sinthesys). Shepard makes the ultimate sacrifice, to give the races of the galaxy, organic or not, and imperfect as they may be, a chance to determine their own future without the threat of extinction and the manipulation of the reapers. For this Shepard sacrifices not just his life, but his very essense, and assumes an eternal vigilance over the galaxy. It's tragic and wonderfull at the same time, a "perfect" ending for the paragon. And the destroy is the ultimate renegade ending, choosing victory at any cost over peace. "victory at any cost" is litaraly the mission statement of the rengade shepard.
In a massive space opera, an ending where the hero retires with his LI and has alian babies, just doesn't fit. It's okay for the supporting cast, but not for the main protagonist. ME wasn't a personel story, it was the story of the entire MEverse, and how shepard saves it.

[Mcfly616]

The EC was amazing

[The Heretic of Time]

saracen16 wrote...

Jenonax wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nope.
I don't feel I was listened to, I don't feel my concerns were addressed. I feel directly insulted.

Can't please everyone? A minor alteration to rejection, and they would've pleased me and a lot of others, while pleasing the rest with their endings. This notion is false, and BioWare deserve no credit.

Not gonna happen, unless you want to change the entire story. Having a different ending for refusal makes for HORRIBLE STORYTELLING. It deviates from the crux of ME3: the Crucible is the ONLY WAY TO STOP THE REAPERS. The evidence is there in the game.

You talk about horrible storytelling then cite a massive Deus Ex Machine as the only way to conclude a storyline as a good thing?  Go learn what actual good storytelling is and then come back.

I'm a writer. The Crucible is a MacGuffin, not a DXM. The Catalyst is also not a DXM because he is introduced. I think it's you who needs to learn what good storytelling is and not parrot every single blurb spat out by the "I hate the starbrat" fan club.

So, you're a writer? Is that what kids who write fan-fics call themselves these days?

You being a writer doesn't mean jack. Mac Walters is also a writer and look with what kind of crap he came up with for ME3's plot. It's not exactly something to be proud of.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:23 .

[dark_secret7]

Why is it that literalists are so hateful towards IT-ers?
They're just trying to save the memory of a franchise that you: A - have given up on, or B - are moving into acceptance of its ending failure in order to better cope.
Both of you are deluded in thinking that your options are the only "true" options. You're flaming and trolling each other for no reason whatsoever. The devs stated that the consequences of the final choice are largely left to your own personal headcanon. Stop attacking each other for it.

I would have loved a REAL ending mission with consequences related to your choices throughout the series (like ME2 but bigger in scope), even if at the end, you just pushed a button, wiped out the reapers, and were shown cutscenes of who was still left alive. I personally believe that Starchild was put in there to remove the need to create a complex ending scenario that would have cost more time/money, and also to get around actually making a final boss. Having said that, it was rather an interesting thing to do - to produce a game with no combative final antagonist, and I respect that one aspect of it. I just wish they would have spent less money and time on multiplayer and day one DLC. I just don't think it suits the franchise. The games should be super deep, non linear, and complex. ME3, sorry to say, was linear.
I enjoyed it; IT or not, I'll be buying the DLC's; but I still think the game could have used a final battle and a PERFECT ending instead of a random appearance by Haley Joel Osmond.