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If Synthesis is a violation, so is Refusal


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#251
DRTJR

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Jamie9 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...
Synthesis, is a magic "Fix-It", If you do not have to work to get food, or shelter how many of us would work?That is Stagnation. 

If you had no one to challenge you, how many of us would strive to be better? That is Stagnation.
If you have nothing to challenge as a culture, be it internal or external problems then it will stagnate. If we do not fight amongst ourselves we can't advance because their will be no challenger, be it physical or mental, no new ideas means Stagnation.


This is like arguing with Javik. :D

Depends what type of work you're talking about. Some people find their work very fulfilling. Especially if it helps others. So I would go to say that many would still work. Cultural norms would change and work would be treated differently.

You should strive to be better to become a better person, not because you want to 1-up that other guy.

Why do we *need* to advance? Seriously, why? If these advances help us understand things better, sure. If they make our lives better, sure. But do we *need* to advance?

Or can we live life helping others, conversing, fulfilling your ambitions, perhaps falling in love?

Stagnation wouldn't be the end of the world.

The point, you have missed it.

Every culture and philosophy is based off of some kind of advance ment. If there is nothing to beat then there is not reason to achieve it. Communism seeks the betterment of the collective even at the expense of the individual, Capitalism seeks the betterment of self to better the collective, Religion seeks the betterment of self against Sin by not falling for the easy route. these conflicts are the basis of ...Culture, as such stagnation would end culture and remove the very reason of life, Conflict. if you had no conflict the only emotions would be joy, and indifference. and as years pass into centaurs we would be become more like automatons than people.

#252
o Ventus

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RiouHotaru wrote...

legion999 wrote...

The next cycle appreciates it...


But the races in the next cycle are still around in Synthesis too.


They'll also be fully organic, rendering Synthesis kinda pointless.

#253
LinksOcarina

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Jamie9 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...
Synthesis, is a magic "Fix-It", If you do not have to work to get food, or shelter how many of us would work?That is Stagnation. 

If you had no one to challenge you, how many of us would strive to be better? That is Stagnation.
If you have nothing to challenge as a culture, be it internal or external problems then it will stagnate. If we do not fight amongst ourselves we can't advance because their will be no challenger, be it physical or mental, no new ideas means Stagnation.


This is like arguing with Javik. :D

Depends what type of work you're talking about. Some people find their work very fulfilling. Especially if it helps others. So I would go to say that many would still work. Cultural norms would change and work would be treated differently.

You should strive to be better to become a better person, not because you want to 1-up that other guy.

Why do we *need* to advance? Seriously, why? If these advances help us understand things better, sure. If they make our lives better, sure. But do we *need* to advance?

Or can we live life helping others, conversing, fulfilling your ambitions, perhaps falling in love?

Stagnation wouldn't be the end of the world.


Actually, stagnation on a global form is somewhat dangerous, especially regarding cultural and religious issues.

To demonstrate this, I point to historian Arnold Toynbee. 

Toynbee, who is sometimes listed as a comparative historian, argued that civilizations don't live or die by a cycle of a patterned rise or fall, but rather they live or die based on their own actions as a civilization. Toynbee focused on the cultural and religious aspects of a civilization, judged them there, and came up with a conclusion that Civilizations answer to challenges by accomplashing goals to meet those challenges. Want to defend your home, build a national army. Want to cure polio, create a vaccine. Want to go to mars, build a space shuttle. Culture, in terms of how we advance in architecture, science,  mathematics, history, music, food, entertainment and so forth, is the lifeblood of a  civilization. 

But what kills ciliziation is what Toynbee referred to as the "creative minority." This group becomes dominant, despite being a small population of a civilization, because it promotes a stasis sort of mentality, to not reach for the stars, to not use science to expand our cultural limitations. We basically become stagnent and we see a loss of social cohesion, a cultural stagnation, and then a hard fall that leads to a civilizations "death" as it were. 

Now, Toynbee linked a lot of this to morality and Chrisitanity being the only way to prevent the creative minority from taking over, but later resinded that idea in other works he made. So he was a tad biased in terms of his theory. I also am paraphrasing a 12 work series into two paragraphs. However, Toynbee was the first comparative historian to basically say that its the fault of the civilizations stagnation through culture, rather than political or social will, or a constant, unstoppable cycle,  that caused a downfall. 

The same idea can basically apply here. Evolving is not necessarily changing physically, but rather meeting challenges and coming forward through these challenges with achievements that allow us to evolve, that allow culture to thrive. The Geth are emblematic of this, promoting them stops a proxy war, puts two distinct cultures that have fought in the past to co-exist once more, and, as a nice touch, gave them the chance to culturally uplift the Quarians back to where they once were. Tali said in 3 that the Geth can help them build, and in 2-3 years the masks can come off, instead of waiting 20-30 years. So they can reclaim their lost culture, reclaiming a homeworld and a life they once had, if they meet that challenge and recognize the achievement they made is not something to fear, but to relish in. 

This goes for pretty much EVERYTHING in Mass Effect. The Genophage, the Turians and their relationship with the Volus, Salraians "uplifting" the Yahg as a client race, and so on. Sometimes it won't succeed, but at least they make strives to improve their culture, rather than lock it in stasis. The Batarians locked theirs in stasis and it basically almost destroyed it due to isolation and their lack of cooperation on a galaxy-wide scale, which as noted, is kind of a theme for Mass Effect, cooperation of the races. The Krogan also represent this before 3, with Wrex, ironically enough, being an odd man out because his ideas WERE radical, were different from what Krogans would do.

But his ideas make the change possible, and like the Geth, they evolve as a civilization.

I should stop rambling, my point is that stagnation is not an answer, and its interesting that refusal as an ending adresses this, but then shows how it is hope for the next cycle to break the chain. So in many ways, refusal is both condemning as a violation of what is right, but hopeful for those who we will never see, for what it did. Its good and bad at the same time.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:53 .


#254
Jackums

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Refusal is the most redundant and unintelligent choice of the four. You sacrifice trillions of people just for the sake of pride or morals or w/e, just for the next cycle to use the Crucible anyway.

Synthesis > Refuse

#255
Jamie9

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DRTJR wrote...
The point, you have missed it.

Every culture and philosophy is based off of some kind of advance ment. If there is nothing to beat then there is not reason to achieve it. Communism seeks the betterment of the collective even at the expense of the individual, Capitalism seeks the betterment of self to better the collective, Religion seeks the betterment of self against Sin by not falling for the easy route. these conflicts are the basis of ...Culture, as such stagnation would end culture and remove the very reason of life, Conflict. if you had no conflict the only emotions would be joy, and indifference. and as years pass into centaurs we would be become more like automatons than people.


Won't stagnation inevitably happen anyway. There has to be a technological end point. It cannot continue improving ad infinitum.

In the end, what technological advancements have happened do not matter. What truly matters is: Did you die happy? Did you find a hobby, enjoy it? Did you feel fulfilled in the work that you did?

We don't need conflict to achieve that.

I could live my life without conflict and I would still strive to better myself. It's natural to want to.

#256
Jamie9

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@LinksOcarina

You've put a lot of thought into your post, yet it's actually 3:45 AM where I am. I'm too tired to constructively argue the merits of that theory. I'm getting some sleep

I'll PM you tomorrow though, it would be callous of me to ignore you, as the theory you have proposed is an intriguing one.

#257
Muhkida

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Rubios wrote...

Cannot believe this thread is going from Mass Effect's synthesis/refusal ending to economics.


You skipped the orgy and Battlestar Galactica

#258
LinksOcarina

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Jamie9 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...
The point, you have missed it.

Every culture and philosophy is based off of some kind of advance ment. If there is nothing to beat then there is not reason to achieve it. Communism seeks the betterment of the collective even at the expense of the individual, Capitalism seeks the betterment of self to better the collective, Religion seeks the betterment of self against Sin by not falling for the easy route. these conflicts are the basis of ...Culture, as such stagnation would end culture and remove the very reason of life, Conflict. if you had no conflict the only emotions would be joy, and indifference. and as years pass into centaurs we would be become more like automatons than people.


Won't stagnation inevitably happen anyway. There has to be a technological end point. It cannot continue improving ad infinitum.

In the end, what technological advancements have happened do not matter. What truly matters is: Did you die happy? Did you find a hobby, enjoy it? Did you feel fulfilled in the work that you did?

We don't need conflict to achieve that.

I could live my life without conflict and I would still strive to better myself. It's natural to want to.


See what I wrote above. Short answer, is yes you can. You can continually improve a culture and a civilization, because achieving a technical endpoint means we have reached a utopian society, which is impossible.

As for what your talking about, its personal happiness,and staying in stasis and being persoanlly is fine. It can be damaging or amazing. But on a global scale, its dangerous, again, as per what I wrote about regarding Toynbee.

ETA: thats fine if you need to sleep, I need to also soon.  

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:49 .


#259
Volc19

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JackumsD wrote...

Refusal is the most redundant and unintelligent choice of the four. You sacrifice trillions of people just for the sake of pride or morals or w/e, just for the next cycle to use the Crucible anyway.

Synthesis > Refuse


No.

Nothing within the game says the next cycle used the Crucible. Liara even states in her beacon that the Crucible was a failure. With that information, who would try to make it anyway? The comment about them using the Crucible is non-canon, and shouldn't be treated as gospel.

In that case, Refuse > Synthesis.

#260
Reptilian Rob

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Muhkida wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Cannot believe this thread is going from Mass Effect's synthesis/refusal ending to economics.


You skipped the orgy and Battlestar Galactica

ORGY!? WHERE!?

*Drops pants*

#261
Gill Kaiser

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JackumsD wrote...

Refusal is the most redundant and unintelligent choice of the four. You sacrifice trillions of people just for the sake of pride or morals or w/e, just for the next cycle to use the Crucible anyway.

Synthesis > Refuse

While I appreciate the spirit of the Refusal ending, and I'm glad it exists, it really is not a logical choice. The only reason not to choose Destroy is because you don't want to wipe out the Geth and EDI, yet in Refusal you doom them to death anyway, along with the rest of the galaxy. Logically, if you're willing to choose Refuse, you should be willing to choose Destroy.

Granted, it's not that simple when you factor in ideology.

#262
RiouHotaru

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Volc19 wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Refusal is the most redundant and unintelligent choice of the four. You sacrifice trillions of people just for the sake of pride or morals or w/e, just for the next cycle to use the Crucible anyway.

Synthesis > Refuse


No.

Nothing within the game says the next cycle used the Crucible. Liara even states in her beacon that the Crucible was a failure. With that information, who would try to make it anyway? The comment about them using the Crucible is non-canon, and shouldn't be treated as gospel.

In that case, Refuse > Synthesis.


Producer says "Crucible gets used."

This is "non-canon".

#263
77boy84

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Why argue that one terrible ending is better than the other? They're all awful.

#264
LinksOcarina

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Gill Kaiser wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Refusal is the most redundant and unintelligent choice of the four. You sacrifice trillions of people just for the sake of pride or morals or w/e, just for the next cycle to use the Crucible anyway.

Synthesis > Refuse

While I appreciate the spirit of the Refusal ending, and I'm glad it exists, it really is not a logical choice. The only reason not to choose Destroy is because you don't want to wipe out the Geth and EDI, yet in Refusal you doom them to death anyway, along with the rest of the galaxy. Logically, if you're willing to choose Refuse, you should be willing to choose Destroy.

Granted, it's not that simple when you factor in ideology.


That makes the ending choices valid as choices to make. Basically, the endings were always hard choices once you look past how they can be a "violation" to people, which makes our degrees of violation purely subjective. 

#265
Jackums

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Volc19 wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Refusal is the most redundant and unintelligent choice of the four. You sacrifice trillions of people just for the sake of pride or morals or w/e, just for the next cycle to use the Crucible anyway.

Synthesis > Refuse


No.

Nothing within the game says the next cycle used the Crucible. Liara even states in her beacon that the Crucible was a failure. With that information, who would try to make it anyway? The comment about them using the Crucible is non-canon, and shouldn't be treated as gospel.

In that case, Refuse > Synthesis.

It was stated by Mike Gamble. It's canon, whether you wish to accept it or not. Unless and until you gain authority on the story of Mass Effect over the producer, it remains canon.

Modifié par JackumsD, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:59 .


#266
Geneaux486

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Bourne Endeavor wrote...
That is said with no understanding of what using the Crucible entails and the potential ramifications.

 
We're told exactly what it entails and what the ramifications are.  Whether or not the Catalyst is telling the truth is questionable at the time, but the fact still remains that the Crucible is the only way to end the Reaper threat.


As I stated earlier, Refusal is Shepard's belief we can defy the Reapers indomitable will and defeat them conventionally.

 
No it isn't.  Shepard knows good and well that not using the Crucible will be a loss.  Hackett's correct assesment tells him this, as does his experience in dealing with the sheer force of the Reapers.


No other cycle has ever unified the galaxy as Shepard has.

 
Correct, and through that unification, that joined effort, the Crucible was constructed and connected to the Citadel.  Refusal involves wasting all of that, and the penalty is death for some, reaperfication for most, most likely Shepard included.


Refusal is Shepard's acknowledge all the choices are an extreme gamble due to the ambiguity of the Catalyst. Therefore, she is taking the only one where she knows exactly what both possible outcomes are. We either defy the odds one last time and overcome the Reapers or die trying.


Except, as I stated, Shepard knows they will not win.  The fleet he put together was only a distraction to get the Crucible into place, and they took heavy losses doing just that.  It's also a fleet made out of leftovers for the most part, what little could be spared from multiple burning home worlds and crippled armies.  Activating the Crucible at least leaves the chance that things will work out (and work out they do), whereas refusal is little more than submission, unless Shepard has just been tuning Hackett out and not paying attention to the war the entire time.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:59 .


#267
sydranark

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RiouHotaru wrote...

 Because in both you take away the right for anyone else to decide what they wish to do.

Only difference is, in Synthesis, people are still around to appreciate it.

In Refusal, they aren't.


derp. the only one that doesn't "force" anything is control. and even that is a risky option. thats why all of the endings STILL suck. 

#268
DRTJR

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Jamie9 wrote...

Won't stagnation inevitably happen anyway. There has to be a technological end point. It cannot continue improving ad infinitum.

We still have conflict, each other. Revolutions will overthrow governments, scientists will make new discoveries to obtain fame/fortune/respect/science, Philosophers will fight because they disagree. we fight because we are different and through the resolutions of that is how we form a culture.

#269
Reptilian Rob

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sydranark wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

 Because in both you take away the right for anyone else to decide what they wish to do.

Only difference is, in Synthesis, people are still around to appreciate it.

In Refusal, they aren't.


derp. the only one that doesn't "force" anything is control. and even that is a risky option. thats why all of the endings STILL suck. 

Control forces the Reapers to bend to your will.

#270
OblivionDawn

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All the endings involve some kind of moral dilemma. Some people are more ok with genocide than they are with taking away free will or succumbing to the allure of power, etc.

But one thing is certain. Being overzealous about which ending you prefer accomplishes nothing, because in the end, your brand of moral crime isn't better than mine, and none of the choices have any real world implications.

#271
Hey

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It seems like a violation of trust the galaxy has put on you. Unless you think the catalyst is a complete liar and switched the color coding so that red is actually synthesis?? That would suck...

#272
Geneaux486

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Reptilian Rob wrote...
Control forces the Reapers to bend to your will.


The Reapers basiclly forced it on themselves.

#273
sydranark

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

sydranark wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

 Because in both you take away the right for anyone else to decide what they wish to do.

Only difference is, in Synthesis, people are still around to appreciate it.

In Refusal, they aren't.


derp. the only one that doesn't "force" anything is control. and even that is a risky option. thats why all of the endings STILL suck. 

Control forces the Reapers to bend to your will.


but who gives a sh*t? it's the reapers. think of it as this: they are criminals and now you're controlling them. 

the only issue is, someone (Miranda's father) has figured out a code to jailbreak them in the past. who's to stop some nutjob from doing it again in the future.

#274
Geneaux486

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sydranark wrote...
the only issue is, someone (Miranda's father) has figured out a code to jailbreak them in the past. who's to stop some nutjob from doing it again in the future.


All he really figured out in the end was how to get the Illusive Man indoctrinated in a more subtle way.  He essentially streamlined the Reapers' process.

#275
Reptilian Rob

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Geneaux486 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Control forces the Reapers to bend to your will.


The Reapers basiclly forced it on themselves.

Implications...Unpleasent.