406 réponses à ce sujet

[sydranark]

Geneaux486 wrote...

sydranark wrote...
the only issue is, someone (Miranda's father) has figured out a code to jailbreak them in the past. who's to stop some nutjob from doing it again in the future.

All he really figured out in the end was how to get the Illusive Man indoctrinated in a more subtle way.  He essentially streamlined the Reapers' process.

so someone else will succeed where he failed? its a possible risk, that's the main point. 

[DRTJR]

Geneaux486 wrote...

sydranark wrote...
the only issue is, someone (Miranda's father) has figured out a code to jailbreak them in the past. who's to stop some nutjob from doing it again in the future.

All he really figured out in the end was how to get the Illusive Man indoctrinated in a more subtle way.  He essentially streamlined the Reapers' process.

His point still stands, what if someone figures out a way to control the reapers without becoming the new catalyst? Somebody just stole some very valuable tools to do what ever they so desire.

[Enjou]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Control forces the Reapers to bend to your will.

Given that the Catalyst is basically the collective will of the Reapers (at least according to the wiki) and he says that he will be replaced by Shepard if this option is taken. If this is the case, you're actually killing the Reapers and taking control of their hardware, not really controlling the Reapers themselves.

[Geneaux486]

sydranark wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

sydranark wrote...
the only issue is, someone (Miranda's father) has figured out a code to jailbreak them in the past. who's to stop some nutjob from doing it again in the future.

All he really figured out in the end was how to get the Illusive Man indoctrinated in a more subtle way.  He essentially streamlined the Reapers' process.

so someone else will succeed where he failed? its a possible risk, that's the main point. 

There's always risk with any choice one makes. 

[Jackums]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Control forces the Reapers to bend to your will.

Shepard essentially becomes the Reapers; their collective consciousness.

So it's less akin to enslavement, but rather more like altering their minds and way of thinking.

Modifié par JackumsD, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:21 .

[Enjou]

JackumsD wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Control forces the Reapers to bend to your will.

Shepard essentially becomes the Reapers; their collective consciousness.

So it's less akin to enslavement, but rather more like altering their minds and way of thinking.

You could compare it to the Geth rewrite virus in ME2 in that sense.

[Geneaux486]

JackumsD wrote...
So it's less akin to enslavement, but rather more like altering their minds and way of thinking.

Not necesarilly.  The Catalyst programmed the Reapers to behave a certain way, but upon choosing synthesis, the individual minds inside the Reapers are free to share their knowlege.  The same could be possible after Shepard takes control as well.

[mauro2222]

77boy84 wrote...

Why argue that one terrible ending is better than the other? They're all awful.

Because Bioware already proved they don't have artistic integrity, so we focus on the awful endings.

[KotorEffect3]

Hopefully this business about reaper free will gets cleared up more by leviathan because I am guessing leviathan is the only reaper with true free will

[sydranark]

Geneaux486 wrote...

sydranark wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

sydranark wrote...
the only issue is, someone (Miranda's father) has figured out a code to jailbreak them in the past. who's to stop some nutjob from doing it again in the future.

All he really figured out in the end was how to get the Illusive Man indoctrinated in a more subtle way.  He essentially streamlined the Reapers' process.

so someone else will succeed where he failed? its a possible risk, that's the main point. 

There's always risk with any choice one makes. 

words of wisdom from captain obvious. in summary, this is what i said:

synthesis forces everyone to be a half-toaster

destroy is mass genocide

refuse is flat-out stupid: everyone dies.

control is the only one that does not force a choice on anyone the galaxy really cares about. all it does is put those beasts in shackles. HOWEVER, there is a risk that these shackles will break. thats a pretty dangerous risk, but it must be taken because the other options just flat-out suck. 

[Jackums]

Enjou wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Control forces the Reapers to bend to your will.

Shepard essentially becomes the Reapers; their collective consciousness.

So it's less akin to enslavement, but rather more like altering their minds and way of thinking.

You could compare it to the Geth rewrite virus in ME2 in that sense.

That's a plausible comparison, too.

Geneaux486 wrote...

JackumsD wrote...
So it's less akin to enslavement, but rather more like altering their minds and way of thinking.

Not necesarilly.  The Catalyst programmed the Reapers to behave a certain way, but upon choosing synthesis, the individual minds inside the Reapers are free to share their knowlege.  The same could be possible after Shepard takes control as well.

They do maintain independence and individuality within the constraints of their programming, as with Sovereign and Harbinger, so that's also possible. But it still wouldn't be classified as enslavement in that it's not Shepard forcing them to do something against their will; it's Shepard becoming their will.

And the Synthesis ending may have altered them in ways we do not know, so it's not entirely applicable here.

Modifié par JackumsD, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:27 .

[KotorEffect3]

mauro2222 wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

Why argue that one terrible ending is better than the other? They're all awful.

Because Bioware already proved they don't have artistic integrity, so we focus on the awful endings.

I see that you still havn't gotten it out of your systems

[mauro2222]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

Why argue that one terrible ending is better than the other? They're all awful.

Because Bioware already proved they don't have artistic integrity, so we focus on the awful endings.

I see that you still havn't gotten it out of your systems

What? it's a fact. The awful endings are subjective, but the lack of the so defended artistic integrity it's true. They retconned the endings and added a new one, they lied, again.

Modifié par mauro2222, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:34 .

[Geneaux486]

sydranark wrote...
words of wisdom from captain obvious.  

So basically control is less platable because there's a risk that something might happen at some point down the road.  Like I said, there is risk with any choice at any time, but you can't let the fear of what could happen stop you from making the best possible decision out of the available ones.

[v TricKy v]

I will put it this way. Everyone who says that refuse=everyone dies is wrong because we dont know that. All we see is shepard standing, Liaras Beacon and then the stargazer talking about that we made it possible for them to defeat them. If it went the way that everyone died than what was exactly different from the other cycles? We must have done something which had a big impact. What that was is speculation(again).

[KotorEffect3]

mauro2222 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

Why argue that one terrible ending is better than the other? They're all awful.

Because Bioware already proved they don't have artistic integrity, so we focus on the awful endings.

I see that you still havn't gotten it out of your systems

What? it's a fact. The awful endings are subjective, but the lack of the so defended artistic integrity it's true. They retconned the endings and added a new one, they lied, again.

Got any more vitriol stored up?  Did you want the relays to blow up? 

[mauro2222]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Got any more vitriol stored up?  Did you want the relays to blow up? 

Glad to see you agree

Lol, they didn't knew how to fix that

Modifié par mauro2222, 01 juillet 2012 - 04:07 .

[RiouHotaru]

But it's not a "New" ending. It's just a game over with extra scenes.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Geneaux486 wrote...

We're told exactly what it entails and what the ramifications are.  Whether or not the Catalyst is telling the truth is questionable at the time, but the fact still remains that the Crucible is the only way to end the Reaper threat.

Actually, we are only told vague estimations by Hackett before we have gathered all the unified galaxy. In only the two instances he makes this assessment, it comes across contrived, if only in a poor attempt to drive the Crucible plot. At the eleven hour we do not know whether conventional means is feasible. Shepard is making the assumption it is. While we do see numerous ships explode, this is true for Reapers as well. Therefore, one could theorize they are not nearly as imposing as we perceived Sovereign to be.

Correct, and through that unification, that joined effort, the Crucible was constructed and connected to the Citadel.  Refusal involves wasting all of that, and the penalty is death for some, reaperfication for most, most likely Shepard included.

That is honestly debatable, as the Crucible's construction was already underway and works without a wholly unified galaxy. Granted, this could be attributed to the poorly executed EMS plot device. Furthermore, reaperfication could occur in any of the offered scenarios, especially Control and Synthesis. We have no reason to believe the Catalyst, which is the continuous flaw in the narrative design.

[Aylyese]

RiouHotaru wrote...

 Because in both you take away the right for anyone else to decide what they wish to do.

Only difference is, in Synthesis, people are still around to appreciate it.

In Refusal, they aren't.

It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees. 

[KotorEffect3]

mauro2222 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Got any more vitriol stored up?  Did you want the relays to blow up? 

Glad to see you agree

Lol, they didn't knew how to fix that

So what is your issue?  I am pretty sure that most people are glad that the relays didn't blow up in the EC

[Xilizhra]

I'm honestly sort of stunned. I thought I had a tendency to be boneheadedly Paragon, but I had no idea killing everyone was such a popular way of thinking for other Paragons. Maybe some of the Renegades were right. Regardless, I value life more than I do abstract ideals such as freedom of choice, and am aiming at whichever choice results in the least death.

It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

A choice you apparently can make for the whole galaxy, then?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:10 .

[mauro2222]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Got any more vitriol stored up?  Did you want the relays to blow up? 

Glad to see you agree

Lol, they didn't knew how to fix that

So what is your issue?  I am pretty sure that most people are glad that the relays didn't blow up in the EC

I don't have an issue with that, I have an issue with a company that called me stupid for being able to see how crappy their endings are and I have an issue with the same company for hiding behind the artistic integrity shield when they thought their money was not in the middle... and guess what? Integrity went down the toilet with logic.

[Aylyese]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm honestly sort of stunned. I thought I had a tendency to be boneheadedly Paragon, but I had no idea killing everyone was such a popular way of thinking for other Paragons. Maybe some of the Renegades were right. Regardless, I value life more than I do abstract ideals such as freedom of choice, and am aiming at whichever choice results in the least death.

It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

A choice you apparently can make for the whole galaxy, then?

Because you are not doing the exact same thing with Synthesis? 

The Bratalyst is holding a gun to your head and saying conform or die. Since when have we ever given into the demands of terrorists? 

[Xilizhra]

The Bratalyst is holding a gun to your head and saying conform or die. Since when have we ever given into the demands of terrorists?

I did in ME1 above Terra Nova. And hey, more war assets in ME3 that way.