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[ThatDancingTurian]

Jamie9 wrote...

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
I'm sorry, no, nowhere was it discussed previously that Shepard was given consent to change all life. Shepard holds the fate over the life and death of the fleet, not over life and a fate worse than death.

How is synthesis a "fate worse than death"?

Many are of the opinion that it is, for various reasons I'm sure you can find in any of the dozens of threads on the subject.

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

They agreed to fight, yes.  Did they agree to die if Shepard decided that the options allowed via the Crucible's creation and use weren't what Shepard wanted?

Refusal is Shepard holding to a moral principle and deciding that not making the decision not to choose is better than choosing.  At no point does anyone else get to chime in and go "But uhh...Shepard you could just pick this option."

They agreed to fight the Reapers. Dying for that cause is implicit in that agreement.
They did not agree to capitulate to the Reaper's demands. The Geth did not agree to be sacrificed for the rest. They did not agree for Shepard to become the God of the Galaxy, and they sure as hell did not agree to be remade in the image of the Reapers.
Every one of these decisions betrays the people of the galaxy in some way, synthesis far more so than the others.

At least they're still alive and the Reapers are either dead or put on a leash. I think they'd be more betrayed if Shepard didn't use the Crucible.

As for the last sentence, well, the Crucible gets used anyway.  How it gets used is entirely up to headcanon.

I prefer to headcanon that it isn't used at all. Logically a galaxy with a massive head start and a built up fleet would annihilate the Reapers.

The story is that this galaxy does not have a massive-headstart. Only Shepard did, and even then, it was too late by the time they got to Earth to win "conventionally", which even then is impossible.

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

Being remade into the image of the Reapers would be for many, it would be for Javik. Yet... Javik just stands there perfectly docile. Which means they're being brainwashed too.
Very much a fate worse than death, a nightmare utopia.

...I think you must've blantantly missed the Catalyst's explanation, ignored it and substituted your own explanation, or completely and utterly ignored EDI's epilogue.

They aren't like the Reapers.  Heck the Reapers aren't like the Reapers anymore.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You miss the point. Shepard is choosing to fight the Catalyst. To fight the Reapers.
This is something everyone ALREADY CHOSE. The Crucible was part of it because they thought it was a weapon to be used against the Reapers, not a Reaper tool to further their agenda.

But that assumes the Crucible is a part of their agenda.  The Catalyst explicitly states that it isn't.  He even states that he believed the Crucible was gone, because he thought the concept was "eradicated".  It can't be a part of their agenda if he wanted to get rid of it.

That makes it either stupid, or a liar. It's indoctrinated agents knew about the Crucible in the Prothean cycle.
Given Reaper timescales, thinking the concept has been eradicated after ONE CYCLE is saying you're sure the roach infestation is exterminated because you haven't seen one after 30 minutes.

Personally, I go with liar. Especially since IT ADMITTED IT'S TRIED SYNTHESIS BEFORE. Regardless if it was with the Crucible or not, synthesis is in it's agenda, and the Crucible aids that.

[saracen16]

guacamayus wrote...

Refusal is the stupidest option, it takes a moral stand and everything but it's just wrong... when all life in the galaxy is on your hands it's time to make the difficult choices few can, trying to keep your hands clean while everyone else dies sounds incredibly selfish to me.

Only that - ironically - it is the only choice that soaks your hand in more blood than the others.

[Jamie9]

The Angry One wrote...

Being remade into the image of the Reapers would be for many, it would be for Javik. Yet... Javik just stands there perfectly docile. Which means they're being brainwashed too.
Very much a fate worse than death, a nightmare utopia.

They're not being brainwashed. Never is that hinted or alluded to in the ending at all. That's "be as pessimistic as humanly possible" mode. Just like "the victory fleets will starve to death".

In my playthrough Javik wanted to kill himself to join the rest of the Protheans. However, did the Reapers make a Prothean Destroyer (I know they couldn't make a Sovereign-class with the Protheans)?

If so, Javik can reunite with his race.

To top it off, from what I presume happens in synthesis (I don't feel we need everything explained to us in minute detail), all of the synthesis stuff would be optional.

The ability to self-alter your own code: Optional.

The ability to upload yourself: Optional.

The only thing forced is the green skin and eyes.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
In a sense, you can.  Standing by and doing nothing is sometimes AS bad as taking action.  Remember in our legal system, if I stand by and do nothing while someone is murdered in front of me and it's clear I could've taken action, I'm as guilty as the killer is.  It's called "accessory".

Dont bring legal system to it.
I'd like you to stand in court and say "I killed this person, because badass criminal threatened me to kill all my family otherwise".

Actually, that IS usually a sound defense.  If someone holds my family hostage and tells me "Kill this man or I'll kill your family" and I kill the man, the courts are pretty darn lenient.  I'll likely still get jail-time for killing the man, but it's not the same as an actual murder.

That's why people are arguing about the ending. You know, some won't accept to become murderers (or rapists) even if it could be justified in court.
Hell, many superheroes ever refuse to kill villain, even it will means saving all his future victims.
  

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 01 juillet 2012 - 12:24 .

[Welsh Inferno]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Being remade into the image of the Reapers would be for many, it would be for Javik. Yet... Javik just stands there perfectly docile. Which means they're being brainwashed too.
Very much a fate worse than death, a nightmare utopia.

...I think you must've blantantly missed the Catalyst's explanation, ignored it and substituted your own explanation, or completely and utterly ignored EDI's epilogue.

They aren't like the Reapers.  Heck the Reapers aren't like the Reapers anymore.

Nah, TAO chooses not to believe a word he says. 'Tis all.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

...I think you must've blantantly missed the Catalyst's explanation, ignored it and substituted your own explanation, or completely and utterly ignored EDI's epilogue.

They aren't like the Reapers.  Heck the Reapers aren't like the Reapers anymore.

Synthesis > Final evolution of life.
Reaper > Pinnacle of evolution

Synthesis > Realm of thought you can't even imagine
Reaper > Realm of thought you can't even imagine

Synthesis > Organic/Synthetic hybrid
Reaper > Organic/Synthetic hybrid

You refuse to see the direct similarities, and refuse to see that the Reapers remain basically the same, only connected to the new hybrids. EDI's epilogue cements this when she starts talking like Sovereign.

[Jamie9]

wantedman dan wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

It's the most immoral thing you could possibly do.

What? How?

You're dooming trillions of people to death when there is another option. Right. There.

That's Samara level of crazy moral code. 

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

That makes it either stupid, or a liar. It's indoctrinated agents knew about the Crucible in the Prothean cycle.
Given Reaper timescales, thinking the concept has been eradicated after ONE CYCLE is saying you're sure the roach infestation is exterminated because you haven't seen one after 30 minutes.

Personally, I go with liar. Especially since IT ADMITTED IT'S TRIED SYNTHESIS BEFORE. Regardless if it was with the Crucible or not, synthesis is in it's agenda, and the Crucible aids that.

Why does it make it stupid?  We're not told during which cycle they tried to get rid of it, and how many cycles later that it appeared in the Prothean cycle.

Also, it's admission that it tried Synthesis before might be tied into it being created to solve the intitial conflict.  Remember, Synthesis removes the fundamental differences between the two races, which prevents any conflict from occuring (Organics gain the technological edge that Synthetics have, and Synthetics gain the understanding of Organics that they lack).

Since Synthesis removes that barrier, conflict resolved.

[saracen16]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
In a sense, you can.  Standing by and doing nothing is sometimes AS bad as taking action.  Remember in our legal system, if I stand by and do nothing while someone is murdered in front of me and it's clear I could've taken action, I'm as guilty as the killer is.  It's called "accessory".

Dont bring legal system to it.
I'd like you to stand in court and say "I killed this person, because badass criminal threatened me to kill all my family otherwise".

Actually, that IS usually a sound defense.  If someone holds my family hostage and tells me "Kill this man or I'll kill your family" and I kill the man, the courts are pretty darn lenient.  I'll likely still get jail-time for killing the man, but it's not the same as an actual murder.

That's why people are arguing about the ending. You know, some won't accept to become murderers (or rapists) even if it could be justified in court.
Hell, many superheroes ever refuse to kill villain, even it will means saving all his future victims.

Indeed. It can even be argued that controlling the Reapers is akin to the choice made on Heretic Station in ME2: do you destroy the heretics or re-write them to suit your purposes? Both are morally equivocal.

[Taboo]

Jamie9 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

It's the most immoral thing you could possibly do.

What? How?

You're dooming trillions of people to death when there is another option. Right. There.

That's Samara level of crazy moral code. 

This.

[The Angry One]

Jamie9 wrote...

They're not being brainwashed. Never is that hinted or alluded to in the ending at all. That's "be as pessimistic as humanly possible" mode. Just like "the victory fleets will starve to death".

I am sick and tired of this. Do you know why the fleets won't starve to death?
Because. They. Retconned it.

In my playthrough Javik wanted to kill himself to join the rest of the Protheans. However, did the Reapers make a Prothean Destroyer (I know they couldn't make a Sovereign-class with the Protheans)?

If so, Javik can reunite with his race.

Ugh. Even if true. Ugh! Javik wouldn't be reuniting with his race!
He'd be uniting with a mockery. An abomination. A record of their suffering. He would despise this. Remember what he said about the Collectors? Wiping them out was a mercy killing.

To top it off, from what I presume happens in synthesis (I don't feel we need everything explained to us in minute detail), all of the synthesis stuff would be optional.

The ability to self-alter your own code: Optional.

The ability to upload yourself: Optional.

The only thing forced is the green skin and eyes.

And the collective will. And the DNA alteration. And co-existance with Reapers. And being happy about it. Who knows what else. It's forced, it's a violation, and it's evil.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Jamie9 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

It's the most immoral thing you could possibly do.

What? How?

You're dooming trillions of people to death when there is another option. Right. There.

This only case if you believe that you are dooming them. But you don't, quite contrary.

This is kind of like you came to 300 Spartans and tell them - "You will all die, so there is pointless for you to make your heroic stand anyway. You must negotiate with Xerxes".

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 01 juillet 2012 - 12:30 .

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Why does it make it stupid?  We're not told during which cycle they tried to get rid of it, and how many cycles later that it appeared in the Prothean cycle.

It says it's thought eradicated. It KNEW it existed in the Prothean cycle. Hence, it was not.

Also, it's admission that it tried Synthesis before might be tied into it being created to solve the intitial conflict.  Remember, Synthesis removes the fundamental differences between the two races, which prevents any conflict from occuring (Organics gain the technological edge that Synthetics have, and Synthetics gain the understanding of Organics that they lack).

Since Synthesis removes that barrier, conflict resolved.

First, that's nonsense. You will not stop conflict by making everybody the same, that's naive and has disturbing racist undertones.
Secondly, it implies it tried synthesis after starting the cycles. Regardless, synthesis is it's goal.

[savionen]

Seriously. Do you think everybody is going to be happy about coexisting with the Reapers after billions were killed by them? There's people with entire families killed by the Reapers.

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...I think you must've blantantly missed the Catalyst's explanation, ignored it and substituted your own explanation, or completely and utterly ignored EDI's epilogue.

They aren't like the Reapers.  Heck the Reapers aren't like the Reapers anymore.

Synthesis > Final evolution of life.
Reaper > Pinnacle of evolution

Synthesis > Realm of thought you can't even imagine
Reaper > Realm of thought you can't even imagine

Synthesis > Organic/Synthetic hybrid
Reaper > Organic/Synthetic hybrid

You refuse to see the direct similarities, and refuse to see that the Reapers remain basically the same, only connected to the new hybrids. EDI's epilogue cements this when she starts talking like Sovereign.

Not only are you too literal, you are also intellectually dishonest. At the time of ME1, Reapers considered themselves a pinnacle of evolution, but synthesis is the true final evolution. The second one is something I'm not even going to delve into: it's an empty statement that clearly has different meanings for the different parties involved. As for the last one, it has been argued before and you STILL refuse to listen: the organic and synthetic components are separate from each other, but on a macroscopic scale, they work together; while synthesis involves changing the matrix of life - the microscopic and molecular dimensions, the basic building blocks - at its very foundation. Reaper husks are just machine on organisms, parasitic relationship, but not symbiotic.

[Enjou]

Sisterofshane wrote...

You can't violate someone by not doing something.

Is it morally right to not get involved when the outcome will mean certain death? That is for you to decide for yourself.

This isn't just "not doing something". Shepard is the one who has been pushing the galaxy to put the bulk of their remaining resources into this last gamble, full well knowing that the device could probably stop the Reapers but not knowing what it would do. The people of the galaxy don't want to die for the most part, and I'm pretty sure they'd be pissed off if Shepard came back and told them he had not just one but three different ways to stop them all from benig killed I'm pretty sure they'd either think he'd been indoctrinated or is just a lunatic traitor and shoot him.

[Necrotron]

The Angry One wrote...

All species of the galaxy agreed to fight the Reapers, to the end if need be.
Not become the Reapers. Making a deal with the Catalyst to alter their being to please it is a violation and a betrayal.

Refusal is an affirmation of the galaxy's will to defy the Reapers, to reject their deals and not bow down to their evil.
If we die, we die free.

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

People are still around in both. Just different people. Depends of what difference you think is the best.

Good point, but allow me to offer a counterpoint:

There's no reason to believe the species of the Refuse cycle wouldn't join the Galactic community in the future of the Synthesis ending.

There will be no synthesis ending in the future, because the future cycle aren't stupid.

Thank you, Angry One.

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...I think you must've blantantly missed the Catalyst's explanation, ignored it and substituted your own explanation, or completely and utterly ignored EDI's epilogue.

They aren't like the Reapers.  Heck the Reapers aren't like the Reapers anymore.

Synthesis > Final evolution of life.
Reaper > Pinnacle of evolution

Synthesis > Realm of thought you can't even imagine
Reaper > Realm of thought you can't even imagine

Synthesis > Organic/Synthetic hybrid
Reaper > Organic/Synthetic hybrid

You refuse to see the direct similarities, and refuse to see that the Reapers remain basically the same, only connected to the new hybrids. EDI's epilogue cements this when she starts talking like Sovereign.

I don't see how you can assign possitive or negative connotations to realms of thought that one can't imagine.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

savionen wrote...

Seriously. Do you think everybody is going to be happy about coexisting with the Reapers after billions were killed by them? There's people with entire families killed by the Reapers.

Apparently they will be very happy just to be alive.

And I quote this old trivia:
"Is submission preferrable to extinction?"

[RiouHotaru]

Jamie9 wrote...

They're not being brainwashed. Never is that hinted or alluded to in the ending at all. That's "be as pessimistic as humanly possible" mode. Just like "the victory fleets will starve to death".

TAO has been this way since ME3 came out.  Then the EC came out and now she's all "The EC is bad because it says this isn't a problem when it SHOULD BE ONE! :crying:"  ("This isn't a problem" refering to the large number of issues that the EC resolved)

See:

The Angry One wrote...

I am sick and tired of this. Do you know why the fleets won't starve to death?
Because. They. Retconned it. 

No they didn't TAO.  They didn't retcon it because there wasn't anything to retcon.  It.  Didn't.  Happen.  At all.  Just because you don't like that it didn't happen doesn't change that.

[wantedman dan]

Jamie9 wrote...

You're dooming trillions of people to death when there is another option. Right. There.

So allowing everyone to die free--a death of self-determinance--is immoral. They--those fighting--chose to fight. The options provided by the Crucible eliminate the concept of self-determinance, which is antithetical to the theme of Mass Effect and the purpose of sapient life.

I see. So you're saying you are completely willing to compromise your principles if the situation is difficult enough, right? Why draw the line at intragalactic war?