406 réponses à ce sujet

[Jamie9]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

That's racism. I'll apply to fantasy, as I hesitate to use a real life analogy at risk of sounding offensive.

If an elf that is part of a terrorist group kills your family, it is still wrong to hate all elves, and want to do them all harm. The same can be applied to the Reapers.

Uh, those same Reapers ARE the ones that just massacred a lot of the galaxy. Your analogy is flawed. The correct one is that the elf terrorist moves next door and says, "I'm good now, so I'm obsolved of all crime!"

Okay, it's a disanalogy.

I'll try again. An elf was controlled by an evil spirit (the Catalyst) and forced to kill the family. The evil spirit is killed. It would then be wrong to kill that elf, correct? As the elf was not controlling it's own actions.

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...


That is the message they sent whether they intended it or not.

Uhhh, no.  That's the message you chose you recieve.  A lot of people chose to take the message differently.  That you interpret that way doesn't make it automatically the only valid option.

The Angry One wrote... 
The relays exploding are not vague. Did you even watch the ending I linked?
It's so blatant that BIOWARE KEPT IT FOR THEIR BAD ENDING.

I will not sit here and let you claim that something has been clarified when it's been clearly retconned. The relays were destroyed. The Normandy's engines were sheared off. Fact. Even BioWare internally recognises this.

Then explain why control shows the Reapers fixing a Relay that was damaged well above and beyond what the cutscene showed?  Also, I'll note the low EMS Destroy ending annhilates Earth (but not the Sol system).  Also, that particular variation ONLY occurs in THAT version of Destroy, the normal EMS Destroy doesn't have that happen and obviously the High EMS Destroy doesn't have that happen.

And again, the Normandy's engines shearing ONLY occurs in the low EMS Destroy.  One ending =/= retcon.

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

You're really grasping at straws. Reapers are a goo of DNA and nanites. Synthesis involves changing the fundamental DNA building blocks into something else to the extent that it can transcend mortality. That makes it final.

That's not final! If we take it literally, they'll just stop. Stagnate. Be in stasis.
Just like the Reapers.

What is it that the Catalyst said? Of ALL LIFE. Not "of some life" (i.e. of different species). He is talking about organic life and its building blocks. What is it that EDI says in her epilogue? That synthesis allowed civilizations to restore and even surpass their former glory? They won't stagnate when there is an infinite amount of knowledge to build on and improve.

Let's not get into supernatural talk and stick with the facts of the games.

On the contrary, it has EVERYTHING to do with the supernatural or unimaginable. It's a blanket statement like saying "you can't even imagine what I'm going to do to you if you attack me." It means nothing.

EDI is repeating Sovereign almost word for word. There is significance in that.

You're seeing it, but I'm not. It's not because I choose not to see it, but it's because the context is clearly different: one involves talking down to organics, while the other is a self-deprecation about being unable to imagine the possibilities..

Again, method different, result same. I WILL compare them, because they ARE hybrids and they are made in the image of the Reapers, with their approval. 

Insanity is saying the same thing twice expecting a different result. Repeating the same argument will get you nowhere.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

It's still pessimism mode because there were other, EQUALLY LOGICAL outcomes people came up with as well, but people like TAO chose to simply zero in on the most negative one.  Why?

Because it validated their hatred of Bioware over the endings.  If people had been more accepting of the alternatives, you wouldn't have people spewing all the vitrol they did.  But saying that things turned out badly made it easy to claim Bioware was being bad people.

Or at least that's my take on it.  Because personally I don't see how anyone could take the EC and say "Oh this makes things WORSE".

Explain why BioWare changed it then? Explain why they EXPLICITLY say the relays/Citadel will be rebuilt by us, or the Reapers will do it.
It's again not clarification. YOU CANNOT REBUILD WHAT IS COMPLETELY DESTROYED.

I saw the implications of it. BioWare saw the implications of it. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.

[Wulfram]

Well, most colony worlds do seem to at least be on garden worlds that would be capable of supporting themselves if they wanted to.

Whether they are or not I guess depends on the economics of space transport. Is it sufficiently cheap to justify shipping relatively low value, bulk goods.

[RiouHotaru]

Muhkida wrote...

By OP's logic....

I watched Benard Pollard tear Tom Brady's knee back in 2008. By his logic, I tore Tom Brady's knee.

Not enough information, and that's a lovely strawman you there.

Shame if anything were to happen to it...

[Pottumuusi]

@ OP: Nope.

[Enjou]

wantedman dan wrote...

Enjou wrote...

I'm pretty sure they choose to fight because they don't want to die. They choose to fight because the Reapers killing them is a violation of their right to self-determinate. Refusal is like telling them to go die even if they don't want to, because that's what is going to happen - defeat is inevitable if the Crucible isn't used.

If you join in any battle without knowing that there is a possibility to completely lose, you are naïve and deserve nothing but. It's simple as that.

Nobody said the possibility of failure wasn't there, but if one of your fellow soldiers came back and told you that he had just chosen not to save you and all your loved ones when he had the chance I'm pretty sure you'd rightfully be pissed off.

Your non-sequitur is adorable, though. "LAWL go die" =/= The crucible's options offer horrific implications and I will not choose them for you.

So the inevitable consequences of your refusal - death, indoctrination, huskification, and Reaperfication of trillions - don't qualify as horrific implications?

So basically, if we defeat them it's perfectly acceptable to enslave them. I see.

No, the Catalyst explicity states that Shepard will replace him if he chooses Control. The Reapers basically get reformatted and have a new OS installed - Shepard VI v2.0. The Reapers are effectively dead in that ending, their hardware just gets repurposed.

[Fawx9]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...


That is the message they sent whether they intended it or not.

Uhhh, no.  That's the message you chose you recieve.  A lot of people chose to take the message differently.  That you interpret that way doesn't make it automatically the only valid option.

The Angry One wrote... 
The relays exploding are not vague. Did you even watch the ending I linked?
It's so blatant that BIOWARE KEPT IT FOR THEIR BAD ENDING.

I will not sit here and let you claim that something has been clarified when it's been clearly retconned. The relays were destroyed. The Normandy's engines were sheared off. Fact. Even BioWare internally recognises this.

Then explain why control shows the Reapers fixing a Relay that was damaged well above and beyond what the cutscene showed?  Also, I'll note the low EMS Destroy ending annhilates Earth (but not the Sol system).  Also, that particular variation ONLY occurs in THAT version of Destroy, the normal EMS Destroy doesn't have that happen and obviously the High EMS Destroy doesn't have that happen.

And again, the Normandy's engines shearing ONLY occurs in the low EMS Destroy.  One ending =/= retcon.

I can quote the orginal Star Kid conversation if you want. But I'm gonna just quote this one line instead.

"Releasing the energy of the crucible will end the cycle, but it will also destory the mass relays"
5:00 mark

They either  retconned it, or we can take that as confirmation that star brat is a lier and is not to be trusted when making your end decisions.

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

Explain why BioWare changed it then? Explain why they EXPLICITLY say the relays/Citadel will be rebuilt by us, or the Reapers will do it.
It's again not clarification. YOU CANNOT REBUILD WHAT IS COMPLETELY DESTROYED.

I saw the implications of it. BioWare saw the implications of it. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.

Except the Citadel wasn't completely destroyed, in ANY ending.  Actually, the scene of the Citadel's "destruction" in the Destroy ending DOESN'T CHANGE.  Even in the high EMS Destroy ending one of the Citadel arms comes COMPLETELY off.  And yet the Epilogue slide says they could rebuild it.

Unless you're now stating that the "We can rebuild it" is a lie now too?

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Uhhh, no.  That's the message you chose you recieve.  A lot of people chose to take the message differently.  That you interpret that way doesn't make it automatically the only valid option.

You chose to headcanon to the clouds, I chose to be a realist.

Then explain why control shows the Reapers fixing a Relay that was damaged well above and beyond what the cutscene showed? 

Because they have the cutscene consistency of pudding, that's why.
The Charon relay is shown losing it's rings, then it has it's rings in the immediately following fleet scene.

That, or different relays took different amounts of damage. This is irrelevant anyway, relays take moderate to heavy damage and are repairable compared to relays blowing the hell up.

Also, I'll note the low EMS Destroy ending annhilates Earth (but not the Sol system).  Also, that particular variation ONLY occurs in THAT version of Destroy, the normal EMS Destroy doesn't have that happen and obviously the High EMS Destroy doesn't have that happen.

What's your point? The explosions used to happen in ALL endings.

And again, the Normandy's engines shearing ONLY occurs in the low EMS Destroy.  One ending =/= retcon.

The Normandy's engines sheared off in the original endings. ALL of them. No matter the EMS. That was changed.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Jamie9 wrote...

Okay, it's a disanalogy.

I'll try again. An elf was controlled by an evil spirit (the Catalyst) and forced to kill the family. The evil spirit is killed. It would then be wrong to kill that elf, correct? As the elf was not controlling it's own actions.

It's not that simple. Do we know what level to which the Reapers were controlled? They were created for this purpose, who's to say how much of it was direction and how much simply a part of their very nature?

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:03 .

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except the Citadel wasn't completely destroyed, in ANY ending.  Actually, the scene of the Citadel's "destruction" in the Destroy ending DOESN'T CHANGE.  Even in the high EMS Destroy ending one of the Citadel arms comes COMPLETELY off.  And yet the Epilogue slide says they could rebuild it.

Unless you're now stating that the "We can rebuild it" is a lie now too?

The Citadel is a handwave. But I was talking mainly about the relays. Don't segway into the Citadel because that wasn't an element that was explicitly retconned.
The RELAYS were. Fact.

[Muhkida]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Muhkida wrote...

By OP's logic....

I watched Benard Pollard tear Tom Brady's knee back in 2008. By his logic, I tore Tom Brady's knee.

Not enough information, and that's a lovely strawman you there.

Shame if anything were to happen to it...

RiouHotaru wrote...

In a sense, you can.  Standing by and
doing nothing is sometimes AS bad as taking action.  Remember in our
legal system, if I stand by and do nothing while someone is murdered in
front of me and it's clear I could've taken action, I'm as guilty as the killer is.  It's called "accessory".

Your fallacy.....not mine.

EDIT: I'm not agreeing/denying which end is better, I'm pretty much stating that labeling your topic while using refusal = violation is erroneous upon approach and is just asking for jimmy rustling

Modifié par Muhkida, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:08 .

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

You chose to headcanon to the clouds, I chose to be a realist.

"A pessimist, is what an optimist, calls a realist."

You're not a realist.  Your headcanon isn't greater than mine just because you go the nitty-gritty route.

Also, my "headcanon" TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT.

[Reptilian Rob]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except the Citadel wasn't completely destroyed, in ANY ending.  Actually, the scene of the Citadel's "destruction" in the Destroy ending DOESN'T CHANGE.  Even in the high EMS Destroy ending one of the Citadel arms comes COMPLETELY off.  And yet the Epilogue slide says they could rebuild it.

Unless you're now stating that the "We can rebuild it" is a lie now too?

The Citadel is a handwave. But I was talking mainly about the relays. Don't segway into the Citadel because that wasn't an element that was explicitly retconned.
The RELAYS were. Fact.

It's been confirmed both through in game assets and the almighty Twitter codex that the Relays are rebuilt in the high EMS ending. 

[Jamie9]

The Angry One wrote...

That they explode is not the important part, it's that they were WRECKED.
The EC specifically retcons them into being moderately damaged. That is a huge difference.

Well, the retcon isn't up for dispute. It's clearly changed in the EC. And the original utter destruction of the Relays is in the lower Destroy and Control endings I believe?

I just think that the races would not have starved either way. The retcon is just to make that much more obvious and not up for dispute.

The Angry One wrote...
Says who? All we really have is their "knowledge". Nothing about the Reapers themselves. Even if they are "free" it means little, they're not Prothean, Inusannon or whatever else. They are Reapers.

And we don't know anything about the Reapers. Previously they were under control of the Catalyst. It is wrong to destroy an entire race because they could do something. By that logic, you'd destroy the Krogan.

The Angry One wrote...
When they flat out say they're all connected?

Organics now have the same traits as synthetics. Surely that would mean they could all join Consensus?

The Angry One wrote...
Synthesis is entirely based on the idea that it eliminates conflict.

It's based upon the idea that organics and synthetics cannot co-exist. But they clearly can, as seen on Rannoch. Synthesis, for me, mearly allows organics to have synthetic traits and vice versa. More opportunities for all. Less restrictions in life. Do what you want to do.

The Angry One wrote...
Even if true, you're still being forced to become this form of life without knowledge or consent.

True. And that certainly is a moral grey area. But it provides the most good to all out of all 4 endings. The other 3 endings do not treat everyone equally.

The Angry One wrote...
That's not racism. These things have been stomping over people's lives for months.
Killing, mutilating, indoctrinating. People won't just forgive and forget. We just aren't built that way.

But they weren't in control. It's wrong to destroy them for something they themselves had no control over. People won't forgive instantly, but over time.

You do see the Reapers leave originally. We don't know how long passes until they return.

[The Angry One]

saracen16 wrote...

What is it that the Catalyst said? Of ALL LIFE. Not "of some life" (i.e. of different species). He is talking about organic life and its building blocks. What is it that EDI says in her epilogue? That synthesis allowed civilizations to restore and even surpass their former glory? They won't stagnate when there is an infinite amount of knowledge to build on and improve.

Again, Reaper propaganda, word for word. The Catalyst says all life because synthesis violates all life in the galaxy. So all natural evolution will stop thanks to it imposing it's twisted view of the future on all life.

On the contrary, it has EVERYTHING to do with the supernatural or unimaginable. It's a blanket statement like saying "you can't even imagine what I'm going to do to you if you attack me." It means nothing.

This has to do with Reaper philosophy, and Reaper views on their existence and life as a whole, nothing else.

You're seeing it, but I'm not. It's not because I choose not to see it, but it's because the context is clearly different: one involves talking down to organics, while the other is a self-deprecation about being unable to imagine the possibilities..

And both involve articulating their own manner of thought. The Reapers have turned all life into an aproximation of themselves.

Insanity is saying the same thing twice expecting a different result. Repeating the same argument will get you nowhere.

Ah, here come the insults. Quite expected of you, saracen when you realise you have no argument left.
My point remains, and you haven't countered it.

[Wulfram]

The Reapers we encounter sound like individuals acting of their free will. With distinct personalities and identities - Harbinger and Sovereign are different, and the one on Rannoch says that Harbinger speaks of Shepard.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

"A pessimist, is what an optimist, calls a realist."

You're not a realist.  Your headcanon isn't greater than mine just because you go the nitty-gritty route.

Also, my "headcanon" TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT.

No it didn't. The relays were damaged and repaired, as opposed to destroyed.
The relay network makes recovery possible. I was correct.

I am not impressed by your continued dishonesty in this argument, even after being presented with direct visual evidence and examples.

[Tigerman123]

I don't see how you could pick reject, if nothing else it's a dereliction of duty, you were ordered to use the Crucible by Anderson and Hackett, millions of individuals other than Shepard have sacrificed their effort and lives to actualize the plan to deploy it, it's just fate that he or she happens to be there to choose its usage.

Destroy is not collaboration, it completely abjures the Catalyst's logic like no other option does; the Star child and his minions aren't preserved, there's no god like intelligence directing the galaxy, no fusion of organic and synthetic... how is that aiding it?

By contrast if you choose not to use the Crucible then you essentially collaborate with the Catalyst, you choose not to use a weapon which does harm to your enemy out of some moral principle, and not a unnecessary or excessive weapon, the only one available

[Baronesa]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You chose to headcanon to the clouds, I chose to be a realist.

"A pessimist, is what an optimist, calls a realist."

You're not a realist.  Your headcanon isn't greater than mine just because you go the nitty-gritty route.

Also, my "headcanon" TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT.

Low EMS cinematics of the Relays exploding are the exact OLD STANDARD cinematics that you got in any case... why now on EC  you accept the Relay are destroyed with the same cinematic, but do not accept it pre EC? if they show exactly the same.

That is a retcon.

The Normandy engines exploding? a retcon.

[Reptilian Rob]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

"A pessimist, is what an optimist, calls a realist."

You're not a realist.  Your headcanon isn't greater than mine just because you go the nitty-gritty route.

Also, my "headcanon" TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT.

No it didn't. The relays were damaged and repaired, as opposed to destroyed.
The relay network makes recovery possible. I was correct.

I am not impressed by your continued dishonesty in this argument, even after being presented with direct visual evidence and examples.

Two internet tough guys fighting it out? Seems legit. 

Come on...You're both extremely intelligent people, lets all be friends and possibly make love. I don't know if you guys are into that kind of stuff, I don't judge. 

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except the Citadel wasn't completely destroyed, in ANY ending.  Actually, the scene of the Citadel's "destruction" in the Destroy ending DOESN'T CHANGE.  Even in the high EMS Destroy ending one of the Citadel arms comes COMPLETELY off.  And yet the Epilogue slide says they could rebuild it.

Unless you're now stating that the "We can rebuild it" is a lie now too?

The Citadel is a handwave. But I was talking mainly about the relays. Don't segway into the Citadel because that wasn't an element that was explicitly retconned.
The RELAYS were. Fact.

I didn't "segway" into it, you mentioned the Citadel explicitly in the post I was responding to, so my using the Citadel as an example is perfectly valid.  You can't handwave it off when you mentioned it yourself.

Also, the Relays weren't retconned.  Again, I'll point to the Control epilogue where the Reapers are shown fixing a Relay that came completely apart.  All it means in the cutscene of the beam leaving the Charon relay is that they had to tone it down so people didn't assume it went up Arrival-style.

I'll ask a slightly tangental question then, just to clarify something I'm wondering:

if they'd used the same Relay cutscene (the original, to make sure you know which I'm referring to) for ALL endings and then stated the relays were fixed, would you still be arguing about the Relays?

[savionen]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
Two internet tough guys fighting it out? Seems legit. 

Come on...You're both extremely intelligent people, lets all be friends and possibly make love. I don't know if you guys are into that kind of stuff, I don't judge. 

That sounds like.... Synthesis ending talk:ph34r: