406 réponses à ce sujet

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Tigerman123 wrote...

I don't see how you could pick reject, if nothing else it's a dereliction of duty, you were ordered to use the Crucible by Anderson and Hackett, millions of individuals other than Shepard have sacrificed their effort and lives to actualize the plan to deploy it, it's just fate that he or she happens to be there to choose its usage.

They didn't know what it will do when they have ordered to activate it though. And to be honest - who gives damn about orders? You can't hide behind orders to justify your actions.

[The Angry One]

Jamie9 wrote...

Well, the retcon isn't up for dispute. It's clearly changed in the EC. And the original utter destruction of the Relays is in the lower Destroy and Control endings I believe?

I just think that the races would not have starved either way. The retcon is just to make that much more obvious and not up for dispute.

Without the relays, the galaxy is isolated and would make recovery after such devastation nigh on impossible, even the low EMS destroy ending hints at this.
But at least you recognise it is a retcon.

And we don't know anything about the Reapers. Previously they were under control of the Catalyst. It is wrong to destroy an entire race because they could do something. By that logic, you'd destroy the Krogan.

If the only way for the Krogan to live were to genetically violate everyone then I'm sorry, the Krogan would have to die.
But since the Krogan aren't racist, belligerent and the enemy of all sapient life, that is a dilemma that would never occur.

Organics now have the same traits as synthetics. Surely that would mean they could all join Consensus?

Yes. But who's consensus? Ours? Or the Reaper's?

It's based upon the idea that organics and synthetics cannot co-exist. But they clearly can, as seen on Rannoch. Synthesis, for me, mearly allows organics to have synthetic traits and vice versa. More opportunities for all. Less restrictions in life. Do what you want to do.

So synthesis is unecesarry, yet it forces itself on all life.

True. And that certainly is a moral grey area. But it provides the most good to all out of all 4 endings. The other 3 endings do not treat everyone equally.

Neither does synthesis, as the only way it says you can be equal is to be made the same. I find that horrifying.

But they weren't in control. It's wrong to destroy them for something they themselves had no control over. People won't forgive instantly, but over time.

You do see the Reapers leave originally. We don't know how long passes until they return.

We see them helping rebuild. That would be what is commonly regarded as "too soon".
I'm not saying it's reasonable, but people would be upset. You'd have protests, attacks, violence, etc. People who have lost sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, entire cities and nations wiped out. They would not forgive, not for a very long time.

Unless they were forced to.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:13 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

"A pessimist, is what an optimist, calls a realist."

You're not a realist.  Your headcanon isn't greater than mine just because you go the nitty-gritty route.

Also, my "headcanon" TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT.

No it didn't. The relays were damaged and repaired, as opposed to destroyed.
The relay network makes recovery possible. I was correct.

I am not impressed by your continued dishonesty in this argument, even after being presented with direct visual evidence and examples.

Two internet tough guys fighting it out? Seems legit. 

Come on...You're both extremely intelligent people, lets all be friends and possibly make love. I don't know if you guys are into that kind of stuff, I don't judge. 

Well, it seems like the argument somehow devolved into wether or not something is a retcon, personally I don't see why anyone would feel that strongly about it either way.

[KotorEffect3]

Refusal is a self serving ego trip that condemns trillions to their deaths just so Shepard can prove a stupid self righteous point. Yeah those fleets you lead to the sol system, those soldiers you were fighting side by side with those last few hours. Everything they did was pointless because you refused to pull the trigger (use the crucible). I can't think of a more morally reprehensible choice than refusal.

[RiouHotaru]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Two internet tough guys fighting it out? Seems legit. 

Come on...You're both extremely intelligent people, lets all be friends and possibly make love. I don't know if you guys are into that kind of stuff, I don't judge. 

To be honest, we have gotten way off-track.  This was about Synthesis and Refusal, and we've now gone way off-track.  But to be honest, the original argument wasn't going anywhere either.

I still stand by my statement that Refusal is as bad if not -worse- than Synthesis IF you claim that Synthesis is bad on the grounds of violating free-will.

If your stance is Synthesis is bad because space-magic?  That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Refusal is a self serving ego trip that condemns trillions to their deaths just so Shepard can prove a stupid self righteous point

Illusive Man uses similar argument. "You are both so self-righteous! ..." and so on, "do you know of required sacrifices?.." yada yada. Bet a lot of people just forgot about it 5 mins after.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:19 .

[Reptilian Rob]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Two internet tough guys fighting it out? Seems legit. 

Come on...You're both extremely intelligent people, lets all be friends and possibly make love. I don't know if you guys are into that kind of stuff, I don't judge. 

To be honest, we have gotten way off-track.  This was about Synthesis and Refusal, and we've now gone way off-track.  But to be honest, the original argument wasn't going anywhere either.

I still stand by my statement that Refusal is as bad if not -worse- than Synthesis IF you claim that Synthesis is bad on the grounds of violating free-will.

If your stance is Synthesis is bad because space-magic?  That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

So, are you guys making love or not? That's the only reason I'm still here.

[Muhkida]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Refusal is a self serving ego trip that condemns trillions to their deaths just so Shepard can prove a stupid self righteous point. Yeah those fleets you lead to the sol system, those soldiers you were fighting side by side with those last few hours. Everything they did was pointless because you refused to pull the trigger (use the crucible). I can't think of a more morally reprehensible choice than refusal.

It CAN be that (not saying it is or not), which OP should be trying to point out instead of whatever violation garbage he threw in...

Derelection of duty, conflict of one's interest comprimising other's welfare......etc.

Modifié par Muhkida, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:18 .

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except the Citadel wasn't completely destroyed, in ANY ending.  Actually, the scene of the Citadel's "destruction" in the Destroy ending DOESN'T CHANGE.  Even in the high EMS Destroy ending one of the Citadel arms comes COMPLETELY off.  And yet the Epilogue slide says they could rebuild it.

Unless you're now stating that the "We can rebuild it" is a lie now too?

The Citadel is a handwave. But I was talking mainly about the relays. Don't segway into the Citadel because that wasn't an element that was explicitly retconned.
The RELAYS were. Fact.

I didn't "segway" into it, you mentioned the Citadel explicitly in the post I was responding to, so my using the Citadel as an example is perfectly valid.  You can't handwave it off when you mentioned it yourself.

Also, the Relays weren't retconned.  Again, I'll point to the Control epilogue where the Reapers are shown fixing a Relay that came completely apart.  All it means in the cutscene of the beam leaving the Charon relay is that they had to tone it down so people didn't assume it went up Arrival-style.

I'll ask a slightly tangental question then, just to clarify something I'm wondering:

if they'd used the same Relay cutscene (the original, to make sure you know which I'm referring to) for ALL endings and then stated the relays were fixed, would you still be arguing about the Relays?

Using pictures to discredit is fun. Third time today.



Came apart did it?

Anyway, I mentioned the Citadel in passing as the ending talks about both. My point was about the relays, and they were changed whether you like it or not.

Also, I argue about this because BioWare themselves are being less than frank on this matter, claiming clarification when it is in fact a retcon and I refuse to allow this to perpetuate further.

[Blacklash93]

All rationalizations of the different endings have a strong degree of conjecture on what the population of the galaxy would approve or disapprove of. Even then there would be very different opinions among the different races and people.

The existance of Destroy pretty much eliminates the need for Refusal as far as consequences go, as I see it. It defies the Reapers and only kills one race and EDI, instead of everyone. Shepard is being idiotically idealistic in Refusal.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:20 .

[RiouHotaru]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

So, are you guys making love or not? That's the only reason I'm still here.

...She's a girl, and I'm a guy.

I'm also gay.

So no.  Now, you?~

[Versus Omnibus]

None of the choices are really any good. It ultimately depends on which of them the player thinks is the less of the two evils. In my chance synthesis is a lot better for the galaxy as a whole.

[KotorEffect3]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Refusal is a self serving ego trip that condemns trillions to their deaths just so Shepard can prove a stupid self righteous point

Illusive Man uses similar argument. "You are both so self-righteous! ..." and so on, do you know of required sacrifices yada yada. Bet a lot of people just forgot about it 5 mins after.

Difference is TIM would have used it to serve his own purposes and really you can only use that argument on people that pick the control option. Neither synthesis or destroy gives anyone power to control the reapers, one of those options destroys them and the other option renders their purpose for reaping obsolete which means they will no longer be hostile.

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

What is it that the Catalyst said? Of ALL LIFE. Not "of some life" (i.e. of different species). He is talking about organic life and its building blocks. What is it that EDI says in her epilogue? That synthesis allowed civilizations to restore and even surpass their former glory? They won't stagnate when there is an infinite amount of knowledge to build on and improve.

Again, Reaper propaganda, word for word. The Catalyst says all life because synthesis violates all life in the galaxy. So all natural evolution will stop thanks to it imposing it's twisted view of the future on all life.

Do you even know what "natural evolution" means? Evolution is a product of several forces: natural selection, genetic drift, mutation, founder effects, and others. It is an ongoing process dictated by circumstances that are present. Synthites are still prone to some of these evolutionary forces, but as a final evolution, their advanced states means that they will not be guided by the constraints of evolution but may even gain a better understanding of those forces, gear them towards embetterment, and surpass these barriers continuously. Socially, they might evolve, but in terms of life itself, they are at a stage that is closer to perfection than anything that has been achieved before.

This has to do with Reaper philosophy, and Reaper views on their existence and life as a whole, nothing else.

Again... context.

And both involve articulating their own manner of thought. The Reapers have turned all life into an aproximation of themselves.

Synthites are not an approximation of the Reapers. They surpass them in every form. They do not possess the cold machine logic that Sovereign has, but rather the emotions and ambitions of organics.

Would Sovereign have hugged Liara in the final scene?

Ah, here come the insults. Quite expected of you, saracen when you realise you have no argument left.
My point remains, and you haven't countered it.

This is what you said:


"The method is different. The result is exactly the same. Hybrids, compatible with and built after the Reapers.
The very template it's based on is that of a cyborg, stop pretending it's something else because you don't want to face facts and then speak to me of dishonesty."

To which I replied:

"Cyborgs contain both macroscopic machine AND organic components. Reapers are an amalgamation of dead genetic goo and nanite tubes. Synthites are different: they contain fundamental building blocks that give them the advantages of synthetics while at the same time maintaining their organic identity and their individuality. Don't try to even compare them. "

To which you replied:

Again, method different, result same. I WILL compare them, because they ARE hybrids and they are made in the image of the Reapers, with their approval. 

Do I see a difference in what you said earlier? Not at all, which means you haven't countered my argument. And I'm going to say it again: insanity is saying the same thing twice and expecting a different result. You haven't denied that the Reapers and Synthites are different.

Modifié par saracen16, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:20 .

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...




Came apart did it?

Anyway, I mentioned the Citadel in passing as the ending talks about both. My point was about the relays, and they were changed whether you like it or not.

Also, I argue about this because BioWare themselves are being less than frank on this matter, claiming clarification when it is in fact a retcon and I refuse to allow this to perpetuate further.

Actually, if you look at that picture, there are several points on that relay where you can see the breaks in it, including one right near the back top arch.  So yeah,  I'd say that relay did come apart.

Now, I'll concede it's impossible to determine at what point in time in-canon that scene of relay repair took place, so you might be right, but based on the image alone, that Relay suffered a lot worse than the Charon one did.

[Reptilian Rob]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

So, are you guys making love or not? That's the only reason I'm still here.

...She's a girl, and I'm a guy.

I'm also gay.

So no.  Now, you?~

I'm straight but whatever, lets do this. Make it quick though I got a date with Battlestar Galactica in twenty minutes on Netflix. 

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Refusal is a self serving ego trip that condemns trillions to their deaths just so Shepard can prove a stupid self righteous point

Illusive Man uses similar argument. "You are both so self-righteous! ..." and so on, do you know of required sacrifices yada yada. Bet a lot of people just forgot about it 5 mins after.

Difference is TIM would have used it to serve his own purposes and really you can only use that argument on people that pick the control option. Neither synthesis or destroy gives anyone power to control the reapers, one of those options destroys them and the other option renders their purpose for reaping obsolete which means they will no longer be hostile.

Well, in Synthesis option you dont serve own purpose, right, you serve Reapers purpose. Is this better?
Destroy requires you to be either a cold-blooded murderer (goals justify the means), or racist (synthetics are not people).
Hmm..

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:23 .

[KotorEffect3]

Blacklash93 wrote...

All rationalizations of the different endings have a strong degree of conjecture on what the population of the galaxy would approve or disapprove of. Even then there would be very different opinions among the different races and people.

The existance of Destroy pretty much eliminates the need for Refusal as far as consequences go, as I see it. It defies the Reapers and only kills one race and EDI, instead of everyone. Shepard is being idiotically idealistic in Refusal.

This a thousand times over

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Except the Citadel wasn't completely destroyed, in ANY ending.  Actually, the scene of the Citadel's "destruction" in the Destroy ending DOESN'T CHANGE.  Even in the high EMS Destroy ending one of the Citadel arms comes COMPLETELY off.  And yet the Epilogue slide says they could rebuild it.

Unless you're now stating that the "We can rebuild it" is a lie now too?

The Citadel is a handwave. But I was talking mainly about the relays. Don't segway into the Citadel because that wasn't an element that was explicitly retconned.
The RELAYS were. Fact.

I didn't "segway" into it, you mentioned the Citadel explicitly in the post I was responding to, so my using the Citadel as an example is perfectly valid.  You can't handwave it off when you mentioned it yourself.

Also, the Relays weren't retconned.  Again, I'll point to the Control epilogue where the Reapers are shown fixing a Relay that came completely apart.  All it means in the cutscene of the beam leaving the Charon relay is that they had to tone it down so people didn't assume it went up Arrival-style.

I'll ask a slightly tangental question then, just to clarify something I'm wondering:

if they'd used the same Relay cutscene (the original, to make sure you know which I'm referring to) for ALL endings and then stated the relays were fixed, would you still be arguing about the Relays?

Using pictures to discredit is fun. Third time today.



Came apart did it?

Anyway, I mentioned the Citadel in passing as the ending talks about both. My point was about the relays, and they were changed whether you like it or not.

Also, I argue about this because BioWare themselves are being less than frank on this matter, claiming clarification when it is in fact a retcon and I refuse to allow this to perpetuate further.

It looks like something came apart and reapers are putting something back together?  Who cares?

[Baronesa]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

So, are you guys making love or not? That's the only reason I'm still here.

...She's a girl, and I'm a guy.

I'm also gay.

So no.  Now, you?~

I'm a girl... she is a girl...

Can I replace you?

[Blacklash93]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Actually, if you look at that picture, there are several points on that relay where you can see the breaks in it, including one right near the back top arch.  So yeah,  I'd say that relay did come apart.

I'd say it's a flub or perhaps all relays weren't equally damaged. Either way the Sol relay was retconned and was left mostly intact with only the mass effect core being dispersed and the rings surrounding it destroyed. I do not see how you can see both cinematics of the relay damage/destruction pre and post EC and say there was no retcon.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:28 .

[Jamie9]

The Angry One wrote...

Without the relays, the galaxy is isolated and would make recovery after such devastation nigh on impossible, even the low EMS destroy ending hints at this.
But at least you recognise it is a retcon.

As agricultural abilities aren't described on each planet, I hope we can agree to disagree.

We both agree it's a retcon. You think they would starve in the original ending, I do not. There's no way to argue it without headcanon so we might as well end that argument here.

The Angry One wrote...
If the only way for the Krogan to live were to genetically violate everyone then I'm sorry, the Krogan would have to die.
But since the Krogan aren't racist, belligerent and the enemy of all sapient life, that is a dilemma that would never occur.

I could make a comparison to the Genophage, and the possibility of all life being killed? But, you're right, it's not the same as synthesis.

The Angry One wrote...
Yes. But who's consensus? Ours? Or the Reaper's?

Does it matter? The Consensus is just a way for all life (previously only Geth) to talk and compare thoughts, ideals, morals, goals.

The Geth use the Consensus as their democracy, but it's just really a giant hologram-forum where people can express their thoughts and memories etc.

The Angry One wrote...
So synthesis is unecesarry, yet it forces itself on all life.

Well, nothing is ever necessary. Improving technology is never necessary, just beneficial.

The Angry One wrote...
Neither does synthesis, as the only way it says you can be equal is to be made the same. I find that horrifying.

Again, this is coming down to: we both have very clear different definitions of what Synthesis does. I believe it gives all organics synthetic traits and vice versa. I don't think everyone is the same after that. Asari are still different from humans. Humans are still different from Geth. Their cultures still differ, just now they have many of the same abilities.

The Angry One wrote...
We see them helping rebuild. That would be what is commonly regarded as "too soon".
I'm not saying it's reasonable, but people would be upset. You'd have protests, attacks, violence, etc. People who have lost sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, entire cities and nations wiped out. They would not forgive, not for a very long time.

Unless they were forced to.

If explained, would people be more rational? The Reapers are helping them rebuild their homes after all. That's a pretty big change.

And even then, can we justify killing an entire race? Because of people's prejudices and ignorance (Unfortune, and sad though it may be)?

[KotorEffect3]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Refusal is a self serving ego trip that condemns trillions to their deaths just so Shepard can prove a stupid self righteous point

Illusive Man uses similar argument. "You are both so self-righteous! ..." and so on, do you know of required sacrifices yada yada. Bet a lot of people just forgot about it 5 mins after.

Difference is TIM would have used it to serve his own purposes and really you can only use that argument on people that pick the control option. Neither synthesis or destroy gives anyone power to control the reapers, one of those options destroys them and the other option renders their purpose for reaping obsolete which means they will no longer be hostile.

Well, in Synthesis option you dont serve own purpose, right, you serve Reapers purpose. Is this better?
Destroy requires you to be either a murderer (goals justify the means), or racist (synthetics are not people).
Hmm..

Or you can pick refusal and screw over everybody while the next cycle has to deal with the reapers.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Actually, if you look at that picture, there are several points on that relay where you can see the breaks in it, including one right near the back top arch.  So yeah,  I'd say that relay did come apart.

Now, I'll concede it's impossible to determine at what point in time in-canon that scene of relay repair took place, so you might be right, but based on the image alone, that Relay suffered a lot worse than the Charon one did.

Well yeah, like I said, moderate to heavy damage. I imagine it depends on the distance the relay had to throw the charge, or random bad luck.
The point is they no longer go up in a fireball. A relay being damaged, even if it falls into pieces is a huge, huge difference with relays exploding into bits.

Keep in mind I say that this is a good thing as it gives the galaxy a future again. I do not think it had one without them, not at this level of devastation.

[RiouHotaru]

Blacklash93 wrote...

All rationalizations of the different endings have a strong degree of conjecture on what the population of the galaxy would approve or disapprove of. Even then there would be very different opinions among the different races and people.

The existance of Destroy pretty much eliminates the need for Refusal as far as consequences go, as I see it. It defies the Reapers and only kills one race and EDI, instead of everyone. Shepard is being idiotically idealistic in Refusal.

I'd argue that it's not idealism in Refusal, it's moral indignation.  You don't like the options presented to you, so you choose not to act instead.  You refuse to compromise even when lives are on the line, for the saking of "staying true to your prinicples".

Philosophically, it's a noble idea, but it's still dumb as hell.  Compromising in the face of extreme circumstances isn't a bad thing.  It happens.