406 réponses à ce sujet

[Geneaux486]

Refuse is actually worse, because it involves Shepard ignoring direct orders from his superiors to use the Crucible at all costs, throwing away all the time and sacrifice put into the thing's construction and placement, and pretty much just unecesarilly killing everyone. I mean really, if Synthesis leaves that bad a taste in your mouth, just pick destroy. The Geth are gonna die either way. Or pick control. The whole "I'll die free" thing is nonsense because for one thing, Shepard's got no business talking about freedom when he/she's deciding that everyone should just go ahead and be harvested, and for another thing, each of the three choices ends in freedom for the innocent. I do think it's great that Refusal is possible though.

[The Angry One]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

That's why if you pick Synthesis there is a massive orgy of shame, dispair and buttsecks. 

You say buttsecks like it's a bad thing, Bob >:|

I never said that, Starchild did. Or did he? Probably, he hates everything we like. 

The Catalyst stands against: Fun sexytimes, chocolate, puppies, kittens, relaxing baths, Babylon 5, Marauder Shields and comfortable underwear.

[Blacklash93]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
I feel like I need several restraining orders and possibly a hired secruity company. 

You probably shouldn't look outside your window right now, then.

[Jamie9]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm not saying every system would die, but places like Sol would be in for very bad times.
Again, the new low EMS destroy alludes to this, what with Hackett on a wrecked ship hoping that people actually survive this mess, and one dude stumbling around in a nuclear wasteland.

I haven't seen the low EMS endings yet, as I plan to take my FailShep through ME3. If that happens, well, that's certainly... bleak.

The Angry One wrote...
The genophage was a good example of grey morality within the series, although ME2 could get a little ham-fisted if you're a Paragon. But it's basically what the ending should have been and failed at.

Agreed. Genophage was one of the best parts of the Trilogy. I can't help but think if they'd just made a codex entry on synthesis this'd be an awful lot easier to decide on.

The Angry One wrote...
The Geth work that way because they were built to work that way. Individual Geth have no personal ambition, no desire to subjigate their fellows.
Humans and other species aren't like that. They're not "ready" for such a thing, and having it forced on them disturbs me.

They have ambitions. The Dyson Sphere in ME2. And after the Reaper upgrades, they're sentient. They'll have the same desires as organics do (except not reproduction, at least not in the same way).

Well, the Geth don't have to link up to the Consensus. Nor do the allied races if they don't wish to. Just seems like a new way to communicate.

The Angry One wrote...
Technology does come out of necessity and improvement.
Cultures that have everything they want tend to stagnate. Computer development is so fast because the more you use computers, the more memory and processing power you need, etc.

Well, at some point far into the future, technology will stagnate. It's not endless. People will still want to create art. make and watch films, fall in love, talk to friends. Technology may stagnate, but culture and society will not.

The Angry One wrote...
And they're all part synthetic, which is a huge problem to me.

Why, specifically? The only difference between synthetics and organics is DNA and code.

The Angry One wrote...
The Reapers declared war on all life, it's as justified as it can be in the name of survival. When the alternative is compromising all beings without their consent it's just not something that even crosses my mind.

The Reapers didn't. The Catalyst did. Yes, I blame him for everything. Genocidal AI. <_<

[Reptilian Rob]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

I feel like I need several restraining orders and possibly a hired secruity company. 

*Le gasp!*  A fellow Californian!  AWESOME!

Yep, San Diego...

[KotorEffect3]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Refuse is actually worse, because it involves Shepard ignoring direct orders from his superiors to use the Crucible at all costs, throwing away all the time and sacrifice put into the thing's construction and placement, and pretty much just unecesarilly killing everyone. I mean really, if Synthesis leaves that bad a taste in your mouth, just pick destroy. The Geth are gonna die either way. Or pick control. The whole "I'll die free" thing is nonsense because for one thing, Shepard's got no business talking about freedom when he/she's deciding that everyone should just go ahead and be harvested, and for another thing, each of the three choices ends in freedom for the innocent. I do think it's great that Refusal is possible though.

Exactly you think those Asari we saw on Thessia, or those Krogan we see on Tuchanka fighting in the end give a crap about Shepard's personal morals or ego?   Thay just want those reapers to stop destroying their respective worlds.  Who am I to deny them their future because of my own stubborn self righteous posturing?

[dreaming_raithe]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

All rationalizations of the different endings have a strong degree of conjecture on what the population of the galaxy would approve or disapprove of. Even then there would be very different opinions among the different races and people.

The existance of Destroy pretty much eliminates the need for Refusal as far as consequences go, as I see it. It defies the Reapers and only kills one race and EDI, instead of everyone. Shepard is being idiotically idealistic in Refusal.

I'd argue that it's not idealism in Refusal, it's moral indignation.  You don't like the options presented to you, so you choose not to act instead.  You refuse to compromise even when lives are on the line, for the saking of "staying true to your prinicples".

Philosophically, it's a noble idea, but it's still dumb as hell.  Compromising in the face of extreme circumstances isn't a bad thing.  It happens.

To be fair, Shepard has no idea the Catalyst won't go..."all right, fine" after she gives her little speech. As players, we've kind of come to expect that Shepard's little speeches end wars, too.

For my Shepard, it was a tough choice between Destroy and Refusal. But she couldn't deliberately axe the geth. She didn't trust Control (because it was TIM's idea), and Synthesis is just a mess. Since she has experience winning "against all odds," she refused and hoped for the best.

I'm still slightly torn as to whether she would have really chosen Destroy (primarily because of the decision in Arrival), but I keep settling back on Refusal.

[DRTJR]

Synthesis is abhorrent because as EDI says they beat poverty, conflict, hunger, and even death itself. If life has nothing to overcome then it will stagnate. If you wish to see the end result of Synthesis then look no further than the Collectors.

Refuse is somed up as this:

Modifié par DRTJR, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:47 .

[RiouHotaru]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


No, it does not work that way. Have you heard in the news lately how a Tennis player kicked an official but later said he meant to kick the chair? While the latter may have been his intent, the former is what actually happened. This analogy applies to BioWare. They can claim whatever they wish however when the narrative contradicts them, it does not matter. All we have to go on regarding Relay explosions is Arrival. There is no exposition to insinuate the Crucible beam will trigger a different explosion. Instead, all we witnessed was a violent one in the original ending. BioWare realized this mistake and changed it.

That is a retcon no matter how you slice it. Either they retconned Arrival or the ending. If nothing else, I do not accept plot points from twitter or youtube. Either put it in the game or it does not count.

....

Does everyone magically forget WHAT caused the Relay to explode in Arrival?  Because really, I get the idea people have somehow contracted selective amnesia on the subject.

Because I see a huge difference between:

"Relay is struck by a ridonkulously huge object and is sheared apart."

And

"Relay explodes after releasing all it's energy in a massive beam."

[TheBlackBaron]

So this thread is slowly sliding towards an angry syntho-sex orgy, right?

Call me when get to that point. I'll be in Texas.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 01 juillet 2012 - 01:47 .

[RiouHotaru]

DRTJR wrote...

Synthesis is abhorrent because as EDI says they beat poverty, conflict, hunger, and even death itself. If life has nothing to overcome then it will stagnate. If you wish to see the end result of Synthesis then look no further than the Collectors.

Actually, Roarsharch is an example of where not compromising gets you pointlessly killed.

Also, no, it doesn't stagnate.  The Collectors had no culture.  In Synthesis, the races don't just suddenly LOSE their culture.

[Jamie9]

DRTJR wrote...

Synthesis is abhorrent because as EDI says they beat poverty, conflict, hunger, and even death itself. If life has nothing to overcome then it will stagnate. If you wish to see the end result of Synthesis then look no further than the Collectors.

You... don't want to beat poverty, conflict and hunger?

I can see the different opinions on death but poverty? I can understand wanting to do it in a different way to synthesis but you don't want to overcome those things because you hate the concept of stagnation that much?

That's... cold.

[DRTJR]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...


No, it does not work that way. Have you heard in the news lately how a Tennis player kicked an official but later said he meant to kick the chair? While the latter may have been his intent, the former is what actually happened. This analogy applies to BioWare. They can claim whatever they wish however when the narrative contradicts them, it does not matter. All we have to go on regarding Relay explosions is Arrival. There is no exposition to insinuate the Crucible beam will trigger a different explosion. Instead, all we witnessed was a violent one in the original ending. BioWare realized this mistake and changed it.

That is a retcon no matter how you slice it. Either they retconned Arrival or the ending. If nothing else, I do not accept plot points from twitter or youtube. Either put it in the game or it does not count.

....

Does everyone magically forget WHAT caused the Relay to explode in Arrival?  Because really, I get the idea people have somehow contracted selective amnesia on the subject.

Because I see a huge difference between:

"Relay is struck by a ridonkulously huge object and is sheared apart."

And

"Relay explodes after releasing all it's energy in a massive beam."

The point is it whent boom. why does the catalyst matter if the end resault is still...Boom.

[Jamie9]

RiouHotaru wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

Synthesis is abhorrent because as EDI says they beat poverty, conflict, hunger, and even death itself. If life has nothing to overcome then it will stagnate. If you wish to see the end result of Synthesis then look no further than the Collectors.

Actually, Roarsharch is an example of where not compromising gets you pointlessly killed.

Also, no, it doesn't stagnate.  The Collectors had no culture.  In Synthesis, the races don't just suddenly LOSE their culture.

In the Krogans and Quarians case, they regain their culture. 

[RiouHotaru]

Actually, the point is that people used a single piece of evidence of one particular instance of a relay exploding and then applied to EVERY other instance (hell, in-canon the same thing happens, read the Codex where people suggest destroying relays)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I just got done playing. Is refusal an option??

[Geneaux486]

DRTJR wrote...

Synthesis is abhorrent because as EDI says they beat poverty, conflict, hunger, and even death itself. If life has nothing to overcome then it will stagnate. If you wish to see the end result of Synthesis then look no further than the Collectors.

While I disagree that synthesis can be compared to anything the Reapers have done to organics, I do think that if synthesis truly is the final evolution of life, organics will get there naturally, so I'd just as soon swipe the reigns and make the Reapers just leave everyone alone.  After fixing all the crap they broke, of course.

[Shaigunjoe]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

I feel like I need several restraining orders and possibly a hired secruity company. 

*Le gasp!*  A fellow Californian!  AWESOME!

Yep, San Diego...

I was in San Diego for the first time at the beginning of June, nice place!  I spent some time hunting down a fish taco truck, Marisco's or something like that.

[thehomeworld]

Refusal you say you're going to let them all fight it out or hide as they wanted to do. Synthesis you say no one has any choice you are going to make all organics into cyborgs and all machines will be giving organic dna.

[saracen16]

Jamie9 wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

Synthesis is abhorrent because as EDI says they beat poverty, conflict, hunger, and even death itself. If life has nothing to overcome then it will stagnate. If you wish to see the end result of Synthesis then look no further than the Collectors.

You... don't want to beat poverty, conflict and hunger?

I can see the different opinions on death but poverty? I can understand wanting to do it in a different way to synthesis but you don't want to overcome those things because you hate the concept of stagnation that much?

That's... cold.

Indeed. Using the advantage of technology, any race can overcome the difficulties it faces. However, because they retain the emotions and ambitions that come with being organic, they do not lose the will to express themselves in a way that conforms to their social, political, religious, and economic identity (vis-a-vis culture).

[RiouHotaru]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 I just got done playing. Is refusal an option??

It's basically a Nonstandard Game Over with extra scenes.

But you don't get any achievements for it.  (Even if you complete the game on Insanity, you won't get the achievement if you go with Refusal)

[Jamie9]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 I just got done playing. Is refusal an option??

It's a fully functional fourth ending.

[Jamie9]

RiouHotaru wrote...
It's basically a Nonstandard Game Over with extra scenes.

But you don't get any achievements for it.  (Even if you complete the game on Insanity, you won't get the achievement if you go with Refusal)

You don't get the achievement because that ending was added in with DLC.

Same reason you don't get paramour for romancing Liara in LotSB.

[Blacklash93]

DRTJR wrote...

Synthesis is abhorrent because as EDI says they beat poverty, conflict, hunger, and even death itself. If life has nothing to overcome then it will stagnate. If you wish to see the end result of Synthesis then look no further than the Collectors.

Except the Synthesis ending indicated the exact opposite of that.

[Geneaux486]

thehomeworld wrote...

Refusal you say you're going to let them all fight it out or hide as they wanted to do. Synthesis you say no one has any choice you are going to make all organics into cyborgs and all machines will be giving organic dna.

Machines are given a greater understanding of organics, and organics, in addition to having their DNA strengthened (they're not cyborgs), gain a greater understanding of their fellow living creatures.  Synthesis, for the most part, is enlightenment, understanding.

Hell, Legion did it, and it worked out really well for the Geth.