370 réponses à ce sujet

[greghorvath]

death_for_sale wrote...

*snip*

How can I take your opinion seriously when you obviously don't know anything about Vanguards, Sentinels or Soldiers?

The bug is bad, but hosting overrides it. Krogan Vanguards are nigh unkillable. Asari Vanguards have Stasis and Lift grenades, which like all grenades right now are incredibly OP. The new Phoenix Vanguard is incredible once you learn how to play it, I see it all the time on Gold now.

Human Sentinels are Asari Adepts with Tech Armor, ie incredible dps and protection. Turian sentinels are tech burst MACHINES. Krogan Sentinels have incredible shields and armor, plus they just happen to have lift grenades which are awesome. Batarian Sentinels, well I have to agree that they need some work, but they have shockwave which was boosted like crazy. Vorcha Sentinels are killing machines of...well...killing.

Human Soldiers have the capability to do mass burst damage, have grenades, and instant reload. Turian Soldiers turn high rof weapons into ultimate shredding devices of doom and have a 20% damage boost from Prox Mine like some other class we may know to be awesome (GI). Krogan Soldiers can create Fire Explosions at will. So can Batarian Soldiers plus they stunlock like crazy. Vorcha, well, they own anything.

Additionally, before people started realizing how OP the GI was, Soldier had a higher presence ovefall than infiltrator. You can see per official stats here na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect3/website/images/home/news/mp-telemetry.jpg

The point of this being, you are like a poster child for the people complaining about infiltrator balance. You absolutely know nothing about any other class than the infiltrator and refuse to see logic. I do not aim this directly at you, per se, but at the people complaining at large. It was the same type of people who whined and cried when they balanced the original OP class. in case you and the other people don't know what it was, i'll tell you.

Quarian Female Infiltrator was the first OP class because of Sabotage and Geth. There used to be posts all over the board 3-4 months ago from people asking for all QFI teams to farm Geth. The class was so OP that it was still getting nerfed on Sabotage and Geth were still being buffed to counter it up until recent times. Read some of the early balance notes sometime to see what was going on near the beginning.

Thank God I could not care less about your approval. As I notice you have problems understanding things, this means: I don't need you to take me seriously...

You have obviously not read my posts or have not considered what they mean, or fail to understand them. But since you need clarification: I personally play all classes (and most races), and I do not have problems with going to silver when I suck with something (which I regularly do...). I have a relatively large friends list, with whom I regularly play all sorts of games, with all sorts of classes. When I go random, I rarely see people use sentinels, vanguards and soldiers. And its not because Infiltrator is so OP, but because these classes (except vanguard, which is my second favourite class, which I probably know at least as good as you do: hosting does not solve the bug for me -dunno why-, and I often get the "effin' thing won't charge bug"), need more practice and skill while the majority of players do not possess this skill. However, balancing the game around top tier gamers would be totally stupid and in direct opposition to what has been happening to the ME series.

Please do not take this personally, but you seem like a poster child for dyslexia. I do not aim this directly at you, but at people like you in large.

You need to read more literature to have a better chance at understanding and then formulating written texts.

Modifié par greghorvath, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:38 .

[Chealec]

COLZ7R wrote...

The people who bombarded the forum for weeks were the ones who benefited from it, the vast majority of the playerbase who didnt give a ****, well who cares what the majority thinks(most nerfers way of thinking)
Bw benifit to, less completed gold matches=less in game credits floating around, more people buy stuff with real money

Since you've not asked the vast majority what they think of the changes, and neither have I, I've just decided that 99.745% of them, who would express a preference if we asked them, would absolutely love these changes and think Infiltrators are MUCH better now; they just hadn't really thought about it before. </stupid_example>

Don't make the mistake of thinking the silent majority are silent because they're happy - it's just as possible that they're not bothered enough, one way or the other, to comment on it; pre-nerf or post-nerf ("oh, they changed it, cool/whatever"). You're the one who's putting words into the mouths of this "vast majority", assuming they all hate the changes and therefore didn't benefit from them (with fun being a benefit - it is a game afterall) - that's rather arrogant of you really...

Modifié par Chealec, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:25 .

[Striker93175]

Sidney wrote...

Again, this to me has zero effect on snipers but it had a huge effect on my shotgun/melee build especially at early levels and then pretty much forced me to take the 150% duration because the shorter base time constantly expired as I prepared to close range something which was a rude shock. They only took one type of build into consideration with this nerf.

Add an Adrenaline 3 mod.  Played with my GI claymore/proxy build last night on gold... ran circles around 'em n.p.  Was even able to cloak and rush to revive from the other side of the map.  HM speed bonus + the adrenaline module = speed racer. 

What i noticed though was the dmg nerf.  I wasn't able to 1 hit combo proxy/claymore brutes unless there were on top of me...  THAT sucked as I am use to them dropping charging and at first it didnt dawn on me about the dmg nerf and i ended up getting downed a few times.  Just had to adjust for it then it was cake.  Second run I added level 4 warp ammo...  made up the diff dmg wise

[COLZ7R]

@cheelec
and does that mean that you are putting your ideas on what is fun and balanced on the vast majority not arrogant!!!! Nerfers were even in the minority on here if you remember.
Really people in glass houses should not fling stones

[Poison_Berrie]

greghorvath wrote...
When I go random, I rarely see people use sentinels, vanguards and soldiers. And its not because Infiltrator is so OP, but because these classes need more practice and skill while the majority of players do not possess this skill. .

I play random, I see them often enough.
Just stop inventing statistics and unsupported claims of use, based on bias.

Also

Please do not take this personally

Followed by:

but you seem like a poster child for dyslexia. I do not aim this directly at you, but at people like you in large. 

You need to read more literature to have a better chance at understanding and then formulating written texts.

And preceded by: 

Thank God I could not care less about your approval. As I notice you have problems understanding things, this means: I don't need you to take me seriously...

Yeah... don't be offended while I insult you.
Don't post "don't take this personally", when you follow it by such an obvious insult. We know you don't mean it and are just trying to hide your offensiveness.

[greghorvath]

Lol!

Try reading the post that I answered. Get back to me afterwards. He was just served a taste of his own poison(_berrie)...

Invented statistics... I speak of my experiences and not valid statistics (which we know represent very little in reality) You have other experiences. Which is not surprising in light of the fact that we are two different people...

Modifié par greghorvath, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[Poison_Berrie]

greghorvath wrote...

Lol!

Try reading the post that I answered. Get back to me afterwards. He was just served a taste of his own poison(_berrie)...

Oh...



(Two times actually)

Invented statistics... I speak of my experiences and not valid statistics (which we know represent very little in reality) You have other experiences. Which is not surprising in light of the fact that we are two different people...

Maybe not invented statistics, but you and several others seemed to be saying that one could take several classes from that equation because no one practically uses them.
I'm not seeing that and without the actual numbers it would be hard to actual prove either way and thus non-sense to swear by it.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:30 .

[Tankcommander]

Kick In The Door wrote...

Everyone on BSN apparently. They seem to take pleasure in other people's pain in a co-op game.

I keep saying this, but the shorter cloak only encourages more infiltrators to use the TC as a damage booster only. Those people who whined for a nerf because they didn't like the Infiltrators 'stealing' all the kills just forced us to do it more now.

It is easier to revive with a Batarian Soldier or a Cerberus Adept now, imo.

[Kel Riever]

Every day, this thread should get longer and longer. I look forward to the next chapter in, 'TC cloak now that it has been balanced to make everybody happier!'

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Tankcommander wrote...

Kick In The Door wrote...

Everyone on BSN apparently. They seem to take pleasure in other people's pain in a co-op game.

I keep saying this, but the shorter cloak only encourages more infiltrators to use the TC as a damage booster only. Those people who whined for a nerf because they didn't like the Infiltrators 'stealing' all the kills just forced us to do it more now.

It is easier to revive with a Batarian Soldier or a Cerberus Adept now, imo.

I don't think it encourages more infiltrators to use TC solely as a damage booster.  People who already were using it primarily for this will still use it for this.  People who used it for objectives and to rez will still use it for these purposes.  Infs aren't just going to quit doing objectives and reviving teammates, even if it is a bit harder now.  And people who used Tac Cloak primarily for the cloak are going to spec duration.

[Poison_Berrie]

Tankcommander wrote...

I keep saying this, but the shorter cloak only encourages more infiltrators to use the TC as a damage booster only. Those people who whined for a nerf because they didn't like the Infiltrators 'stealing' all the kills just forced us to do it more now.

I have seen enough post and discussion to say that it's not going to be as clear cut as you make it.

Now you have an actually decision to make in which both options are worthwhile. More powers could use that.

[Tankcommander]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Tankcommander wrote...

I keep saying this, but the shorter cloak only encourages more infiltrators to use the TC as a damage booster only. Those people who whined for a nerf because they didn't like the Infiltrators 'stealing' all the kills just forced us to do it more now.

I have seen enough post and discussion to say that it's not going to be as clear cut as you make it.

Now you have an actually decision to make in which both options are worthwhile. More powers could use that.

You cut out the part where I said it was easier to revive with other classes.

It still isn't worthwhile. Damage trumps duration in its current form (and previous) in most scenarios, so the better Infiltrators (and worse ones) still stick with it. Being able to kill more enemies per cycle is more useful to me and my teammates than me being cloaked and hidden from them for longer for most of the game. Only for about five minutes per game is the duration actually important.

That being said, if they gave me a positive incentive to use duration, I would have been happy to spec for it. You know, 20 sec duration with a chance to not break cloak during a revive/objective cap, etc. But forcing me to go duration to be able to hide? No thanks.

Cloak lasts 5.2 seconds now. It takes approximately 1.7 seconds to actually get most enemies to lose you on Gold (tho many won't even lose you anymore), which leaves you 3.5 seconds to do whatever you need to do. This isn't enough time for a hot area revive, and again I'm not respecing to help out randoms, especially if randoms are composed of the BSN playerbase.

Edit to get my numbers right.

Modifié par Tankcommander, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:48 .

[INVADERONE]

I rarely play as an infiltrator but when I do I use cloak for damage on some characters but spec it for duration on others. It seems that the only benefit to tactical cloak now is damage. Cloak and shoot. I have tested tactical cloak and found myself being fired upon by everyone even from faaaaaaar faaaaar away (and I wasnt even shooting). Its like tactical cloak is just a thing you do to look cool in game. Almost like an appearance option really....all enemies see you most of the time in tactical cloak and it doesnt last long enough to do objectives.... as of now to me it seems its all about the damage. Put on some heavy powerful weapons on your infiltrator and get your headshots like a soldier as tactical cloak is not really tactical at all. From what I gather now it is more like the soldiers adrenaline rush for damage bonus than anything else.

[dday3six]

nicethugbert wrote...

dday3six wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Sinapus wrote...

edit: nevermind, already answered. 


edit^2: Obviously, the way to prevent "aggro dumping" is to NERF RUNNING AWAY!!!

Storm should break cloak.

Here you go, perfect example of people posting unreasonable ideas about TC, which I referred to in my previous comment.

Actually, it works in other games.  Makes stealth play nice with the rest of the game.

That's unrelated to Tactical Cloak and Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer.

[Feauce]

dday3six wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

dday3six wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Storm should break cloak.

Here you go, perfect example of people posting unreasonable ideas about TC, which I referred to in my previous comment.

Actually, it works in other games.  Makes stealth play nice with the rest of the game.

That's unrelated to Tactical Cloak and Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer.

Don't engage him. Thug is an obviously anti-Infiltrator troll. Read a few Cloak/Infiltrator threads (and some others, even) and you'll see it. All he does is spout the same 2-3 statements. The quicker Thug gets ignored in a thread like this, the faster a real conversation can happen.

That's not a "personal attack" by the way, that's objective assessment based on several of Thug's previous posts/threads.

[Immortal Strife]

If I look at my infiltrator play and my friends infiltrator play I can conclude that post nerf equates to much more veriety amount infiltrators. I used to never take duration on the TC tree but now half of my infiltrators incorporate the added duration. Sure, I agree the new duration seems short but the added challenge and veriety are welcome in my book as opposed to the standard cookie cut builds of the past that I could do everything with.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 03 juillet 2012 - 03:20 .

[xcrunr1647]

Oh boy, here we go.

Vercuric wrote...

And please, don't even bother suggesting to go for the duration bonus over the damage. That's really just there for novelty's sake. Nobody is going to sacrifice damage, an ability that's useful in ALL situations, for duration which is only useful for specific waves, and even then only for one specific objective type.

Bold face type.

Tells me everything I need to know.

You're the kind of infiltrator I don't like. 

Have fun with your nerf 

 I'm gonna go play my crappy Turians that nobody likes and clean house with them 

[DeathIsHere]

nicethugbert wrote...

DeathIsHere wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

DeathIsHere wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Mindlog wrote...

The cloak change was meant to punish new and mid-level players that take longer to line up shots and complete tasks.

In reality high-level players know that duration is a terrible evolution and no amount of difference in length will ever change that. Duration needs a real buff and most of that should come from moving some damage out of its current evolution.

So, you want to make it easier for the worst infiltrators to dump aggro on the team?  Besides, they're not going to learn to aim by using a crtuch.  They're just going to learn to use the crutch.  They're better off practicing without TC with something like a Batarian + Kishock, or Turian + Saber.

Translation for those of you that don't understand what he's saying:

"PLAY MY WAY OR YOU'RE PLAYING EZ MODE AND DUMPING AGGRO ON ME, WHICH IS LAME AND YOU CAN'T PLAY RIGHT." 

I don't mind if people have crutches, if they want them.  I just want everyone to understand what they are and I don't want them jammed sideways in my posterior.

TC would be team friendly if it were damage deflection instead of aggro deflection.

Which would make it Adrenaline Rush and not a "cloak" in the slightest. Try again.

Ok, can't storm in TC, only walk.  Storm breaks cloak.

Could work if you increased the cloak duration by...a lot. Not being able to storm but still having such a short duration kills its utility (which I know you don't care about, but people that aren't completely bias do) . So the duration would need about a 10 second increase for that to work. This would also take a patch to do, a lot of extra work for Bioware to implement, and would make "AGGRO DUMP" even worse for you, so how about no. Try again.

[Feauce]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I don't think it encourages more infiltrators to use TC solely as a damage booster.  People who already were using it primarily for this will still use it for this.  People who used it for objectives and to rez will still use it for these purposes.  Infs aren't just going to quit doing objectives and reviving teammates, even if it is a bit harder now.  And people who used Tac Cloak primarily for the cloak are going to spec duration.

I have huge issues with this bit.

The change made it only useful as either a damage booster or revives/objectives, not a balance of both, and there should be an option for that. For example, my salarian Infiltrator was spec'd for Damage and Power Use, which means I can't use it for grabbing objectives within sight of the enemy anymore. Would you care to guess what my salarian won't be doing now?

It doesn't take much to see that ~5 sec duration isn't long enough to get much tactical use out of Tactical Cloak beyond tactically shooting someone in the face for a damage buff. Even with a character that picks Duration, it's only barely enough time for objectives. If you run up to an objective while visible, Cloak, and immediately start, your Cloak drops just as the objective completes. There's no room for error or a quick Cloaked dash from cover like you could've done before with the Duration-buffed Cloak.

[nicethugbert]

dday3six wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

dday3six wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Sinapus wrote...

edit: nevermind, already answered. 


edit^2: Obviously, the way to prevent "aggro dumping" is to NERF RUNNING AWAY!!!

Storm should break cloak.

Here you go, perfect example of people posting unreasonable ideas about TC, which I referred to in my previous comment.

Actually, it works in other games.  Makes stealth play nice with the rest of the game.

That's unrelated to Tactical Cloak and Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer.

Actually, all stealth systems are aggro dump systems.  The point of stealth is to avoid aggro, in a game that revolves around aggro, like ME3 MP.

The classic solution to stealth dumping aggro on the non-stealthed is to limit the movement speed so that stealth is used judiciously instead of just dumping agro all over the place all the time at the stealther's conviniance at the expense of the team.

[nicethugbert]

Feauce wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I don't think it encourages more infiltrators to use TC solely as a damage booster.  People who already were using it primarily for this will still use it for this.  People who used it for objectives and to rez will still use it for these purposes.  Infs aren't just going to quit doing objectives and reviving teammates, even if it is a bit harder now.  And people who used Tac Cloak primarily for the cloak are going to spec duration.

I have huge issues with this bit.

The change made it only useful as either a damage booster or revives/objectives, not a balance of both, and there should be an option for that. For example, my salarian Infiltrator was spec'd for Damage and Power Use, which means I can't use it for grabbing objectives within sight of the enemy anymore. Would you care to guess what my salarian won't be doing now?

It doesn't take much to see that ~5 sec duration isn't long enough to get much tactical use out of Tactical Cloak beyond tactically shooting someone in the face for a damage buff. Even with a character that picks Duration, it's only barely enough time for objectives. If you run up to an objective while visible, Cloak, and immediately start, your Cloak drops just as the objective completes. There's no room for error or a quick Cloaked dash from cover like you could've done before with the Duration-buffed Cloak.

All the other classes do objectves without cloak.  The last weekend event had a squad goal based on not having any infiltrators in the team.  People did it just fine.  I spent the entire weekend doing nothing but gold savage runs and accumulated 2 mil credits over the course of the weekend.  Accumulating 2 mil credits over the weekend is normal for me.

So, I fail to see any problem with infiltrators not having a long cloak for any reason as I and many other players play fine without a TC user in the party.

[greghorvath]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

[*snip*

Invented statistics... I speak of my experiences and not valid statistics (which we know represent very little in reality) You have other experiences. Which is not surprising in light of the fact that we are two different people...

Maybe not invented statistics, but you and several others seemed to be saying that one could take several classes from that equation because no one practically uses them.
I'm not seeing that and without the actual numbers it would be hard to actual prove either way and thus non-sense to swear by it.

I love that pic...
Alas, 'tis all speculation... Atm we have nothing more to go by than our experiences. But it is reassuring that even if we had numbers, there would be great differences in interpretation...

[Poison_Berrie]

Tankcommander wrote...

It still isn't worthwhile. Damage trumps duration in its current form (and previous) in most scenarios, so the better Infiltrators (and worse ones) still stick with it. Being able to kill more enemies per cycle is more useful to me and my teammates than me being cloaked and hidden from them for longer for most of the game. Only for about five minutes per game is the duration actually important. 

I've found that my damage specced Shotgun Infiltrator has a lot harder time without duration. I use cloak to flank and close distance to my targets  and when I get round to respeccing her I'll go duration. 
That said the Rank 4a 40% damage buff is very large and they'd have been better off stealing 10% from there.

Cloak lasts 5.2 seconds now. It takes approximately 1.7 seconds to actually get most enemies to lose you on Gold (tho many won't even lose you anymore), which leaves you 3.5 seconds to do whatever you need to do. This isn't enough time for a hot area revive, and again I'm not respecing to help out randoms, especially if randoms are composed of the BSN playerbase.

With 5.2 seconds duration your more likely to be beyond the 3 seconds CD point and with a shorter range that increases dramatically. So duration has made weight matter more.

[Hyuzan]

I'm indifferent personally. It just means instead of being a utility knife I'll be single purpose damage now. Sorry but RNG be trollin and I don't have a BW, but I do have a widow X. With my single shot and aggravating reload I won't be catching a peoples elbow from Mr. Prime while trying to light up an objective or get someone up.

[RGFrog]

death_for_sale wrote...

A class that could not be in any way, overpowered, because 33% of the people playing Gold felt it was needed to complete a match without failing.

And therin is the problem. 1 out of every 3 players feels that an Infiltrator pre-nerf is required to complete a match.

It's not a problem with the Infiltrator. The problem is on the other side of the equation. Either the other classes need to be adjusted to make them more viable or the enemy does.

The only time saying that something is OP because 1/3 of all players use it is when that 1/3 is destroying the other 2/3 in a true PvP environment were a class can truly be OP.

nicethugbert wrote...

Actually, all stealth systems are aggro dump systems.  The point of stealth is to avoid aggro, in a game that revolves around aggro, like ME3 MP.

The classic solution to stealth dumping aggro on the non-stealthed is to limit the movement speed so that stealth is used judiciously instead of just dumping agro all over the place all the time at the stealther's conviniance at the expense of the team.

 

Broken record. You are going to be shot at no matter what.

You're going to be shot at more when there are fewer players for the AI to shoot at. There are a number of ways this can happen.

Get used to it. Nerfing cloak again will do nothing to change this. The game will get no easier. You will not be able to run off on your own on the other side of the map and take on a horde any easier. You will not be able to hide behind cover and get flanked less. You will not get any more kills than you do now. Your score will not change. Matches will not have more credits or xp, nor will they play out any faster. You will still be a liability to your team since you obviously can't handle being shot at. The enemy AI will not just wander around the map aimlessly to avoid aggro'ng you.

The fact is, aggro or not, the enemy ai is predictable. If aggro gets you bent out of shape then it means you haven't or can't predict and adapt. Which is all your problem and no one else's.

Aggro itself is a good thing. It means objectives can be completed faster/eaiser. It means pressure can be relieved from a player(s) if someone knows how to manipulate it. It means that those complaining about aggro merely see all problems as external with only external solutions.