370 réponses à ce sujet

[SkreeMalicious]

start a petition to rename Infiltrator to 3secondSneakFiltrator

[Cundu_Ertur]

Before the nerf infiltrators did not need to worry about weight. Reducing base duration made hitting max cooldown time more likely since the cooldown is dependent on how long you are cloaked divided by max duration. So now, a long cooldown caused by carrying a BW and Claymore can be a serious concern even if you only cloak for a second.
I just think that the damage cost for taking the duration option now is just a little too high, and that non-sniping infiltrators didn't get adjusted enough. Some tweaking is needed, in my opinion, but not with base duration. That is right, now.

[Mal3fact0r]

death_for_sale wrote...

If you buff every other class to the overpowered nature of one class, then you have power creep. This leads to a never ending cycle of buffing bosses to compensate for overpowered players. After a while, it leads to people quitting; this can be seen in many other MMO's that allow power creep.

As far as the 'vocal minority' I think that it can be seen that the same minority of people are the ones constantly complaining about the balance. The majority actually support it because they understand how overpowered the class was.

I've played every single class/race since the MP started, I can list easily which combos were overpowered and have eventually been nerfed. I can tell you that, in my opinion, the balance didn't hurt the class that bad. It won't make you believe me, but there it is.

People leave games for all sorts of reasons, power creep is but one. Another is having what they enjoy taken away from them, and while I agree that the nerfs weren't that severe, it's possible it drove people away from the game. Don't forget that these types of games have a relatively short lifespan already, power creep is less of a concern than it is in an MMO, as they tend to have much longer lifespans.

The forums of any game represent a "vocal minority", a very small fraction of an entire playerbase even bothers reading them, let alone posting in them. Perhaps that's what he meant by a vocal minority?

Modifié par Mal3fact0r, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:07 .

[staindgrey]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

What bugs me about the cloaking is that if you count the activation and fade time, you're really only cloaked for about 3 seconds.

And even then, half the time enemies just ignore your cloak altogether.

[lpconfig]

Actually, you can cloak for longer than 4 seconds if you spec for it.

[kmmd60]

Vercuric wrote...

And please, don't even bother suggesting to go for the duration bonus over the damage. That's really just there for novelty's sake. Nobody is going to sacrifice damage, an ability that's useful in ALL situations, for duration which is only useful for specific waves, and even then only for one specific objective type.

So yeah. Damage nerf? Fine. Duration nerf? Hayul naw. The last thing we need is more discouragement for going after objectives.

I do take longer duration on SI and FQI. Better teamwork and higher mobility are my infiltrator theme. You can draw aggro off your team on one flank while they're busy killing the other. You can even run through group of troopers and take a flanking position behind them, momentarily confuse them and give them no cover. Objective capping and revive are easy.


Shorter base cloak duration means you got to choose. Infiltrators are no longer master class in MP. Hell, 90% damage bonus with 10s cloak is godly. Balance does't mean to be fun, it's to "BALANCE" so that there's no dominant tactic/build in the game.

[Yoshiyuki Ly]

I think this is just a case of the kid being upset in the store when their parent takes the candy away. After letting the child open it, eat it, and do this with several more candies until they get to the check-out counter and the parent reports their kid for stealing.

[Astartes Marine]

Vercuric wrote...
And please, don't even bother suggesting to go for the duration bonus over the damage. That's really just there for novelty's sake. Nobody is going to sacrifice damage, an ability that's useful in ALL situations, for duration which is only useful for specific waves, and even then only for one specific objective type.

I went with duration.  I KNOW at some point some of my squadmates will be down, 11 seconds of cloak gets me at their side and gets them back in the fight. 

Plus there's the obvious assistance with objective hacking.

[lpconfig]

Vercuric wrote...

And please, don't even bother suggesting to go for the duration bonus over the damage. That's really just there for novelty's sake. Nobody is going to sacrifice damage, an ability that's useful in ALL situations, for duration which is only useful for specific waves, and even then only for one specific objective type.

So yeah. Damage nerf? Fine. Duration nerf? Hayul naw. The last thing we need is more discouragement for going after objectives.

His arguments have so many holes in them, of course they wont hold any water.  The game gives you a choice between damage and duration.  Duration used to be a completely useless evolution before.  Now it is not.

And he is talking about discouragement from objectives?  Wtf?  Since when do you need a 10 second + cloak to do an objective.  I have done countless gold games without any infiltrators at all.  These comments make no sense. 

[ka243]

100% agreed op. +1

[lpconfig]

ka243 wrote...

100% agreed op. +1

-10

http://t1.gstatic.co...i7jVDmPu1BSI7w 

Modifié par newman982, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:18 .

[Grausherra]

I've played Infiltrator less and less since the nerf. A run-and-gun shotgun infiltrator (AKA, the only fun 'trator) suffers no matter which evolution he picks.

[SKhalazza]

Just take duration at rank 4. Overkill don't give you anything and you can use your consumable. /thread

[Chealec]

newman982 wrote...

Actually, you can cloak for longer than 4 seconds if you spec for it.

Give this man a cigar - he gets it!

Besides, it's NEVER a 4 second cloak unless you've got TC below tier 3 - it's a 5.2 second cloak, which can increase to 11.2 seconds if you take the tier 4 evo. I've seen several people saying that they're "OK with a damage nerf but BW shouldn't have nerfed the duration"... guess what, if you take duration at tier 4 you'll be TAKING a damage nerf rather than a duration nerf - the choice is yours.

Strap a Graal or a Reegar on (with shotgun gear) rather than a sniper rifle and taking the tier 4 duration doesn't have an enormous effect on your damage output in real terms - it's more noticeable with Sniper Rifles because not taking the 40% damage bonus at tier 4 gimps the tier 6 sniper rifle damage multiplier - but it's still not the end of the world.

As for the OP's "who does it benefit?" question ... the answer is anyone who enjoys playing a team game as a team, rather than a spectator (especially when you've got a couple of Krysae-wielding GIs on the team).

I'm not sure it's really toned down the number of infils yet though, which was the stated goal - I was in a match with 3 of them again last night (the host had set it to Cerberus, so I was playing my anti-Cerberus AV).

Modifié par Chealec, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:30 .

[Mal3fact0r]

Flaming Snake wrote...

I ALWAYS take the duration evolution. I don't need the damage bonus to still do really well. I play my infiltrators as more long range support classes, instead of the usual "I'm in yo face dudez wf ma claymoarz!"

So, I use an arc grenade, then the cloak to get up close, revive those who did play like that and got swamped, then run away again.

Not every infiltrator plays for the score. Some of us actually play to SUPPORT others.

Not every Infiltrator that specs for damage over duration plays for score either. I spec damage to help my team by killing things faster, and we use teamwork to get objectives/tricky revives done.
 
Nice generalization though.

[staindgrey]

The duration increase benefits more than just objectives. You just have to get creative with it.

My human infiltrator "Cloak-Click-Boom" class (5/3/6/6/6) uses the extra duration benefits for flanking and ammo box runs. She's got a Scorpion pistol and as many Stickies as possible, and since her priority damage doesn't benefit from the Cloak, I'd prefer to have a longer time to find more 'nades or to find a better position to stagger boss enemies and/or draw their attention temporarily.

[greghorvath]

Holy-Hamster wrote...

Infiltrators being way more powerful = everyone plays them.

Infiltrators getting cloak nerfed = More incentive to play other classes.

Variety = good. Everyone playing infiltrators = bad.

yes, that is very nice. What a shame the percentage of infiltrators was nowhere near alarming in gold and almost optimal in lower difficulties. Otherwise you are right.

@op: the nerf was not aimed at providing more "fun". The purpose was to allow/force a choice between utiliity and damage. However, I think the way the change was made does not actually achieve the purpose while it does hurt the "fun" factor. But think about it this way: people may be annoyed for a while with not being able to do the activation missions alone, but the shorter base duration may actually necessitate a degree of teamwork. 

A good infiltrator (whether a sniper or a shotgunner) still dominates Gold. i have a friend who regularly reaches around 200k in a gold game with his gi and bw, and is a good team player as well. I know this is going to sound elitist, but those that don't need to practice more. 

[IntenseDan]

I just lead the boards with a GI, damage specced, using a Disciple VIII (Huh?). I am terrible at the class and it still wasn't hard. Use more cover? Idk. I couldn't stand around in the open, but 5 seconds is enough to run through a packed hallway, or revive a teammate.

Come to think, how long does the damage buff last? Is it the next shot or is it a short duration?

[Pitznik]

greghorvath wrote...


yes, that is very nice. What a shame the percentage of infiltrators was nowhere near alarming in gold and almost optimal in lower difficulties. Otherwise you are right.

33% out of 6 classes is double of what it should be. How is that nowhere near alarming compared to 15% on silver/bronze?

Modifié par Pitznik, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:09 .

[Holy-Hamster]

Damage buff lasts for around 2.5 seconds or so, I don't remember the exact numbers but its close to that I think

You can get all 3 shots off with a valiant, usually 2 with a black widow with full bonus, maybe 3 on the black widow if you reload cancel and time it all perfectly

[Drasynd]

Thanks, NERFERS, I've changed my play style.

If the objective is to kill something - OK
But with hack, activate, deactivate or FedEx - sorry, I'll give you covering fire but that's all.
Also Run'n'Gun, vanguards and anyone with reegar, krysae or harrier - sorry, NO HEALS.

There other conditions that also warrant the "no heal" tactic, but at least the rest of the team might get healed. Unfortunately, that depends on how many enemy's there are that I CAN'T CLOAK past.

So NERFERS have fun, I'll still be a infiltrator, won't be doing as much TC DMG or healing or objectives, but that was the point wasn't it.

And @Holy-Hamster, once I get the other classes I have to lvl 20, I'll promote them and then it's INFILTRATORS ONLY, so you and your incentives can go jump into a volcano (normally I'd say "in a lake" but not in this case).

Modifié par Drasynd, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:13 .

[Holy-Hamster]

You seem angry.

If you're having troubles with objectives then that's a player problem, not a class problem.

But basically you just posted this because suddenly you're not as OP as before and you're unhappy about it.

Want some more tissues?

[Permafrost27]

Drasynd wrote...

Thanks, NERFERS, I've changed my play style.

If the objective is to kill something - OK
But with hack, activate, deactivate or FedEx - sorry, I'll give you covering fire but that's all.
Also Run'n'Gun, vanguards and anyone with reegar, krysae or harrier - sorry, NO HEALS.

There other conditions that also warrant the "no heal" tactic, but at least the rest of the team might get healed. Unfortunately, that depends on how many enemy's there are that I CAN'T CLOAK past.

So NERFERS have fun, I'll still be a infiltrator, won't be doing as much TC DMG or healing or objectives, but that was the point wasn't it.

And @Holy-Hamster, once I get the other classes I have to lvl 20, I'll promote them and then it's INFILTRATORS ONLY, so you and your incentives can go jump into a volcano (normally I'd say "in a lake" but not in this case).

What's "Run n Gun"?

[greghorvath]

Pitznik wrote...

greghorvath wrote...


yes, that is very nice. What a shame the percentage of infiltrators was nowhere near alarming in gold and almost optimal in lower difficulties. Otherwise you are right.

33% out of 6 classes is double of what it should be. How is that nowhere near alarming compared to 15% on silver/bronze?

1. People dont use vanguards because of the bug (which incidentally I have not had fo rsome time now...)
2. Very few people choose sentinels. Probably because they are sloths and they dont do a lot of damge either.
3. Number of soldiers is increasing, but the class is still the privilige of the few that can carry it in gold. 

With three classes ruled out because of their marginal utility on gold, 33%is just about right...

i for one dont use infiltrators in bronze for teo reasons:
1. I dont play bronze a lot
2.  AoE attacks clear out maps on lower difficulties faster than making it viable to try scoring hits with a precision damage class...

Modifié par greghorvath, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:39 .