Aller au contenu

Photo

Eternal. Infinite. Immortal: CrutchCricket's Guide to Control


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
56 réponses à ce sujet

#1
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 735 messages
A Look At Control  <-apparently you can't center in these threads but this is the title lol


In light of the EC I’m seeing a lot of doom and gloom threads popping up about Control . Some people are freaking out that Shepard will go crazy and start Reaping, others are just mindlessly quoting the tired old Acton cliché and just about everybody seems fond of saying “oh it’s not Shepard, it’s just the holokid with Shepard’s face” or something to that extent.

I wanted to compile all my thoughts on the matter in order to a) focus discussion of these issues in one place and B) have something to point to when this inevitably comes up again. I’m getting real tired of typing the same thing over and over.:unsure:

 

Disclaimer: I am looking at the consequences of Control alone. I am not discussing the ending in general and/or how it relates to the rest of the series. I’m also not discussing the holokid’s “logic” and in fact have done my best to ignore it both in this, hopefully impartial perspective and in my personal headcanon.

The contents of this post are largely extrapolations derived from what we’ve seen in Control. None of the  conclusions described are seen in-game. However I have tried to follow a logical progression in coming up with
this that should hopefully give it more weight than just “some dude’s headcanon”.

 

Summary: i.e. where I’m going with this. If you read nothing else take the following as the key topic of this thread:

 

By picking control, Shepard is ascending as an individual. He is stripped of his humanity and corporeal form and becomes something more. The new entity is not Shepard the human but there is continuity of persona.  One does not simply end and the other begins. It is a transformation. The new entity is fundamentally different than the Catalyst (referred to as the holokid always, at least by me). It is a higher intelligence able to perceive and comprehend more than organic minds can imagine. As a result of this expanded awareness, the new entity further disconnects from his organic roots and becomes indifferent to lifeforms beneath it. Therefore at some point in the future the new entity will ignore organics, perhaps going so far as to physically remove itself from their midst in the pursuit of whatever unknowable goals such an intelligence would have.



 And now onto the detailed points:


Shepard vs not-Shepard.

How many times have you gone on a thread discussing Control and referred to the new control entity as “Shepard”, for convenience’s sake? Invariably as soon as you did some wise-ass would immediately attempt to
correct you: “That’s not Shepard. Shepard’s dead. That’s just an AI,” they’d intone, with the same righteous matter-of-factness as a career bureaucrat denying a slightly erroneous application. What may be most irritating is that technically they’re correct (the best kind of correct if the Central Bureaucracy is to be believed).

The Shepard that we get out of Control is not the same Shepard we put in at the beginning of whatever ME game you started on. Obviously one’s a meatbag, the other’s a bunch of circuits controlling some big-ass cuttlefish. But as much as they are technically correct, they couldn’t be more wrong in terms of deeper meaning and intent. “That’s not Shepard” is typically not meant to imply “that’s no longer a human with flesh and blood” but rather “there was an intrinsic value in the identity of Shepard that is not present in this artificial approximation”. In other words, it’s the VI who only thinks he’s Shepard but on a larger scale. It’s an imperfect copy, a replica, a fake.

Friends, are you aware of how nebulous the concept of identity really is? What makes the you of last week the same “you” as in the present? What link is there between the two? How do you prove that there is some quality
about you, some identity that persists through time? Is it physical continuity? Is it merely that you look the same, that you are identical genetically?  You are not of course the exact same as last week. You hair and nails may have grown, some of your cells may have flaked off. In fact speaking of cells, you cycle just about all of them every couple of years (different tissues replace themselves at different rates. Neurons do not get replaced at all). So physically you are not the same collection of cells you were a few years ago.

Now let’s go deeper (BWONNNG!): teleporters in fiction typically work on the basis of breaking down the target, sending all that information about the target to the destination and reassembling it there. So suppose a person got teleported. Their matter on the transmitting end would be completely destroyed; while instantaneously all the information about them would be used to reconstruct them at the destination. But is it the same person? Or merely a copy? Physical continuity is obviously ruled out. The body at the transmitting end was completely destroyed. Only information about it was sent. So what’s left? Memories? Personality? Those are ruled out too. If the person at the receiving end has a memory (dinner with his wife, let’s say), that memory does not belong him because he didn’t have dinner with his wife. He don’t have a wife. How could he? They were just created in the teleporter. They have recieved the memories of another man who happens to be the exact same, but who was destroyed moments ago.


So how does this relate to Shepard? Well before we get to his case I’m sure people wouldn’t really be comfortable believing we don’t have an identity that persists through time or if that we had teleporters we’d be
systematically murdering every user and just creating copies at the other end. So we need to loosen up a little. Instead of demanding continuity and exactness, maybe we need just to settle for “if it looks like Bob, and it talks
like Bob, and it remembers what Bob did, it’s probably Bob”. But forget Bob, what about Shepard? Well Shepard too gets broken down and disintegrated and all the information pertaining to what he was gets transmitted somewhere. Except instead of recreating his organic body at some other point, his thoughts and personality get integrated into the Reaper command structure. What you’re left with is something that talks and thinks like Shepard, with the only difference being that physically, he’s a collection of giant robot cuttlefish. So by our more chill standards, it talks and remembers like Shepard, it’s probably Shepard. There is continuity albeit weak continuity. Strong continuity as we’ve seen just isn’t possible. So by this alone humanShepard=ControlShepard.

Where that equality gets broken is what is added to Shepard after that transmission: untold processing power, the combined knowledge of all the races the Reapers somehow have stored in them etc etc. Once you factor all that in, what we’re left with doesn’t talk much like Shepard did, doesn’t act much like Shepard did and definitely doesn’t look much like Shepard did. So we can conclude that it is in fact not Shepard. But there is continuity there, just weak continuity. But no weaker than the continuity of any of us persisting for more than a few years or of teleporting (if we ever figure that one out). So ControlShepard is not just a VI or an AI who thinks its Shepard. It is a whole new entity that is continuous from our Shepard.

 

Shepard vs. The Holokid.

A few people seem to think that Control just means Shepard replaced the holokid with himself and that there is a strong possibility that years down the line some clueless race is going to get the same nonsensical song and dance from holoShepard after he nearly harvests everyone yet again. I maintain that is not the case, and that the control entity is fundamentally different from the holokid.

The Catalyst was an AI built and programmed by its creators for one task- finding a solution to the organic-synthetic problem (never mind whether this problem actually existed or not). Its programming makes the holokid believe it and it’s safe to assume is creators believed it too. This suggests a few things, the most important being that the holokid was necessarily limited in how it could act. In other words it was likely shackled, like EDI was, restricted from certain functions or data and unable to self-modify (they just didn't do a good enough job of shackling it, or maybe they didn't count on it planning to melt them and everyone else into mecha-cuttlefish go-juice). This is supported by the holokid itself when it says the Crucible opens new possibilities. The device then clearly loosened or removed some shackles allowing the holokid some wiggle room where before there was none.

So what about Shepard? Well unlike the holokid he is not a created AI with a single nonsensical goal. The new control entity (I like to call it Commander) is created based on the thoughts and persona of a living being, an organic. This fact alone makes the resulting intelligence far more dynamic than the holokid. And as it replaced it, the Crucible was still docked. So even if the Crucible only temporarily allowed the control entity more power, it’s not hard to imagine it would’ve taken the opportunity to throw off the rest of its shackles or to self-modify in order to be able to do so at a later time. It's guided by Shepard's thoughts after all and the man made sure he could complete his objectives when he got'em. Furthermore we have the matter of the purpose. The holokid was built with this problem as a core part of its existence. But Shepard was not. Hell you can even make the case that Shepard doesn’t even buy this whole synthetic-organic crap but he’s not going to pass up the chance to end the war with just a few simple (if far-reaching) actions.

Therefore, not only is Commander fundamentally different from the holokid, it has the will and the power to self-modify and remove any residual programming that might push it to accept the crazy logic and start Reaping again. Although this is not a direct proof, the line “Through my birth his thoughts are freed” seems to support the idea that Commander is not tied down to any directive like the holokid was. It’s not conclusive. But it’d be a very odd choice of words otherwise.

 

The Music:

For those that have read this far, this is the intermission point. No huge theoretical rambling here. Yes, I’ll admit it, the music for both epilogues in control is a tad intimidating. Personally I think it fits the presentation aspect of the Reapers (they’ll never be cute and cuddly, no matter who’s in charge. You can make Kermit the Frog the new  control entity and it’ll still be pretty damn scary). But this is a point of impressions and emotions and that’s not something I can argue against. And since I said this is supposed to be intermission, here you go: [link]

 

The Indifference Doctrine

This is probably the part I’ll endorse most strongly. But if you’ve followed along so far you know what kind of entity we’re dealing with here. We’re talking about something with all the power, knowledge, perception and  understanding of the Reapers, yet unchained by the flawed logic that ruled them before. If at this point you want to call Commander a machine god or cosmic entity, you’re not technically correct but I won’t argue the point much. Because the effects of this fact on its relationship with lower lifeforms (yes us, puny organics) are about the same as if we were talking about Galactus. And that effect is indifference. Why would something so vast, with greater potential still, worry about a few organics scurrying here and there? There is so much in the universe that’s beyond us so many concepts and ways of looking at things we can’t even begin to imagine. Just look at the scale of the observable universe. We are of less consequence in the grand scheme of things than the individual atoms that we’re made of matter to us. And here we have a true higher intelligence, with this entire universe to explore with all the vast faculties at its command… and it’s going to keep playing with us?

The character of Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen was written precisely to drive this point home. In the starkest deconstruction of superheroes, the one super-powered being in the entire series asks us why should he use his powers for the good (or detriment) of mankind? Manhattan needs nothing. He is threatened by nothing. He is  instead fascinated by the quantum workings of the universe, even as he laments his powerlessness in the face of immutable determinism. His powers take him far beyond the trivialities of the mundane everyday world. “I have walked across the surface of the sun. I have witnessed events so miniscule, so fast they can hardly be said to have occurred at all.” And next to all this, he is expected to worry (or indeed even notice) such things as Laurie’s growing discontent, or the political tensions his very presence causes? His connection to humanity grows ever weaker and to really drive the point home, not only does that not bother him, but in a way he’s almost relieved. “I grow tired of Earth, these people. Tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.” Inasmuch as he still feels emotions, he almost resents the constant stream of human problems he’s asked to deal with- because to his higher level senses they are as inconsequential as asking any one of us to mediate for ants. Or microbes. Even at the end, where he acknowledges the worth of life, he chooses to leave and study it on his own terms. I think this is because even in organic life, there are things far more important than the petty issues of our daily lives. To us they’re important because they encompass our entire world. But to a being thrust outside the world? You might as well ask which type of ants he prefers, red or black.

So where does that leave Commander? In pretty much the exact same situation as Dr. Manhattan I would argue. The holokid himself predicts a “disconnect from humanity”. The epilogues laid it on a bit thick with the whole guardian of the galaxy (or dictator if you’re feeling renegade). But this disconnect does not need to happen instantly. I believe however that it will happen eventually for the reasons listed above. Therefore the control entity will stick around for a while (not sure how long) and do what it said it’d do- guard or rule. But eventually it will grow indifferent to organics. And at that point it will devote all its resources to the pursuit of… whatever goals such beings pursue. Thus I conclude it is unlikely it will inevitably come into conflict with the organics it’s supposed to save. It will not restart the cycle, nor will it be drawn into a war for whatever other reason.

 

A Final Thought:

The entity I’ve been describing for the past five pages is something no organic mind can fully comprehend. Therefore applying human concepts to it like extended emotions, insanity or my personal favourite<_< “power corrupts” is bound to be flawed. We are simply not equipped to make these assertions. I can’t guarantee that level would even have equivalents of these assertions. So when I see things like “Shepard’s gonna go crazy and reap everyone” or “you can’t trust any man with that much power” or any variations thereof, I can but shake my head. People who insist on these kinds of statements are vastly missing the point. And ironically, they’re often the same people who won’t shut up about how “Shepard’s dead and that’s just an AI who thinks its Shepard”. Good grief.

Further Reading:

Estimated intelligence of one Reaper- Post by stephen_dedalus. The scope of adding all that together is staggering to even try to think about.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:31 .

  • teh DRUMPf!!, Uncle Jo, GalacticWolf5 et 1 autre aiment ceci

#2
CroGamer002

CroGamer002
  • Members
  • 20 673 messages
Very nice to read.

#3
iamthedave3

iamthedave3
  • Members
  • 455 messages
Cthulhu is sane and his perceptions are beyond our understanding and we are irrelevant to him. He'll still kill us anyway.

It's a long screed but it's still full of assumptions. There's no reason why Commander would be interested in humanity... and no reason why not, either. This is where the speculations for everyone comes in, non-ironically.

What happens during Control is up to the player to decide. My Commander is going to re-engineer the universe to produce better marzipan, and reap any cycle that fails to advance this goal. Why? Because Commander knows better than us, and has observed that marzipan is the ultimate purpose of all life.

And can you really prove her wrong?

#4
Mythx88

Mythx88
  • Members
  • 151 messages
Most impressive.

Can you please explain how disintegrating yourself somehow activates a machine that uses space magic to assume control of the reapers?

#5
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 735 messages

iamthedave3 wrote...

Cthulhu is sane and his perceptions are beyond our understanding and we are irrelevant to him. He'll still kill us anyway.

It's a long screed but it's still full of assumptions. There's no reason why Commander would be interested in humanity... and no reason why not, either. This is where the speculations for everyone comes in, non-ironically.

What happens during Control is up to the player to decide. My Commander is going to re-engineer the universe to produce better marzipan, and reap any cycle that fails to advance this goal. Why? Because Commander knows better than us, and has observed that marzipan is the ultimate purpose of all life.

And can you really prove her wrong?

I believe that's why they call it "cosmic horror". The whole Lovecraftian thing is we're insignificant specks among a ****ton of cosmic entities that will kill us dead if they so much as exhale in our general direction. I can see how you'd get there given the inital presentation of the Reapers but that's not what this is about at this stage.

I gave you the reasons why it wouldn't be and it all goes back to their insignificance in the grand scale of things. Do you worry about the welfare of microbes around you? That's kind of what we're talking about here.

You can headcanon about marzipan to your heart's content and I respect your right to do so. I would contest however this "ultimate purpose of life" business.

Mythx88 wrote...

Most impressive.

Can you please
explain how disintegrating yourself somehow activates a machine that uses space magic to assume control of the reapers?

I deal with the consequences of control, not with its mechanics. But you should realize Control takes the least space magic given there is already a command structure and the Crucible is 90% power source. The blue wave is just an updated control signal, letting the Reapers know who's boss. As for the disintegration the principle is the same as the teleporters I just described. The subject is broken down and all its information is transmitted to the destination.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:11 .


#6
Therefore_I_Am

Therefore_I_Am
  • Members
  • 747 messages

Mythx88 wrote...

Most impressive.

Can you please explain how disintegrating yourself somehow activates a machine that uses space magic to assume control of the reapers?

If it's anything that the Cosmic Horror Story trope has taught us, is that giant monsters billions of years old border between the world of science and the world of magic, it's stuff that we would normally think as impossible. Just ask H.P. Lovecraft.

On-Topic: Love the explainations and summaries. It's true, Shepard is now Dr. Manhattan. Except I know that my shep is not that fickle, and that he really does care about the value of life. Now and forever.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 01 juillet 2012 - 11:13 .


#7
Mythx88

Mythx88
  • Members
  • 151 messages
Well I suppose it makes a little bit more sense than how you turn the Crucible on in the destroy ending.

Lol @ shooting the tube to activate the Crucible.

I tip my hat to you for the OP, though I still believe the premise of the entire ending is completely silly.

Modifié par Mythx88, 02 juillet 2012 - 12:34 .


#8
N-Seven

N-Seven
  • Members
  • 512 messages
I like the control ending. It's easier than the other endings to 'headcanon' into a 'perfect' ending. But yeah, in order to do so, the player needs to be optimistic. The requirement is that you believe God-Shep is capable of being a benevolent entity, that through his/her transcendence is beyond traditional concerns of madness or corruption. If you can buy into the 'there is such a thing as a benevolent god' and you are able to toss away the Acton 'power tends to corrupt' quote in this context, then Control becomes a great ending.

Well aside from not having a body of course!

Modifié par N-Seven, 02 juillet 2012 - 12:46 .


#9
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 735 messages

N-Seven wrote...

I like the control ending. It's easier than the other endings to 'headcanon' into a 'perfect' ending. But yeah, in order to do so, the player needs to be optimistic. The requirement is that you believe God-Shep is capable of being a benevolent entity, that through his/her transcendence is beyond traditional concerns of madness or corruption. If you can buy into the 'there is such a thing as a benevolent god' and you are able to toss away the Acton 'power tends to corrupt' quote in this context, then Control becomes a great ending.

Well aside from not having a body of course!

Read (or re-read) the "Indifference Doctrine" portion of the OP again. It has nothing to do with optimism or benevolence. You had it, right there in the underlined (though I don't think I would've phrased it as such, using words like "traditional"): By virtue of becoming a higher intelligence, Commander is quite literally beyond madness and corruption as we understand them. It doesn't need to be benevolent. It's very nature excludes these things. Given how we define "madness and corruption" as deviations from the norm, it is possible its level may also have states that are outside its norm in a similar way, thus it can have forms of these concepts. But before we even try to claim that we must determine what its norm is. And that too, is quite beyond us.

Therefore_I_Am wrote...
On-Topic: Love the explainations and summaries. It's true, Shepard is now Dr. Manhattan. Except I know that
my shep is not that fickle, and that he really does care about the value of life. Now and forever.

Do you know that though? Indifference is a very logical outcome given the scales we're discussing here. Say you lived among ants all your life and everything about you was dedicated to building and protecting the ant hill and following the orders of the queen. Your entire world was nothing but the mound and the area surrounding it (say a radius of a few feet). If you were suddenly elevated to human level and you had the ability to explore and understand the entire world, would you still care about that ant hill? Would the toils of those ants not seem insignificant to you? You might say no, I'll always feel attached to my roots. But think carefully. You yourself were an ant. As far as we can tell ants have no emotions, no real reasoning power. They're almost mechanical in what they do. Now picture your mind going from nigh-automaton to the full range of emotions a human enjoyes, the full sense of logic and reasoning. Could you still honestly say the ant hill has meaning in the face of all this new input? I don't see how you could. It's not fickleness. It's ascension, growing beyond previous limitations.

Of course your canon is your own. If you wish to think that Shepard stays forever among the organics, go for it.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 02 juillet 2012 - 01:22 .


#10
Enhanced

Enhanced
  • Members
  • 1 325 messages
Nice. I really agree with your "Shepard vs not-Shepard" points. That's why control is my favorite ending.

#11
Pitznik

Pitznik
  • Members
  • 2 838 messages
My Paragon Shepard would pick the Control ending. The only sacrifice is himself, and my Shepard trusts himself enough to become that powerful. He's not TIM, TIM was too weak and he had no moral spine to control such power. And in case God Shepard would notice himself getting more and more distant, he can always send Reapers to their death and follow them himself, or just venture into the dark space.

Btw, you don't really have to be one of the people to care about them. People dedicate their lives to protect and care about animals, even plants, that happens all the time. Being disconnected from something doesn't mean you start to being indifferent.

On the other hand, my Renegade Shepard certainly wouldn't be a great guardian of the universe. Luckily, he really wants to have a chance to meet Jack again, so he'll pick destroy.

#12
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 735 messages

Pitznik wrote...
Btw, you don't really have to be one of the people to care about them. People dedicate their lives to protect and care about animals, even plants, that happens all the time. Being disconnected from something doesn't mean you start to being indifferent.

True but it's a matter of perspective. Let's say you're a botanist and you're fascinated by plants. You're not a plant yourself obviously but you do have plants that you care for and study. Then one day you get the opportunity to go bigger. You get to study the Thorian (never mind the spores and the mind control, say you're immune). Are you still going to care about your garden variety (lol) plants when you can study something that will drastically expand your awareness of planthood?

My point is that the control entity is an incredibly advanced intelligence with the whole universe before it. There's so much to expore. The universe is as far above it as it is above organics. So when it looks at organics how could it possibly assign any significance to their toils? And really even a regular botanist without access to super space plants isn't going to spend all his time among the plants monitoring all biochemical signals. There will come a point where he's done all he can and learned all he can. Now it's time to hit the town. It's only a matter of time before the control entity "hits the universe".

#13
Pitznik

Pitznik
  • Members
  • 2 838 messages

CrutchCricket wrote...

Pitznik wrote...
Btw, you don't really have to be one of the people to care about them. People dedicate their lives to protect and care about animals, even plants, that happens all the time. Being disconnected from something doesn't mean you start to being indifferent.

True but it's a matter of perspective. Let's say you're a botanist and you're fascinated by plants. You're not a plant yourself obviously but you do have plants that you care for and study. Then one day you get the opportunity to go bigger. You get to study the Thorian (never mind the spores and the mind control, say you're immune). Are you still going to care about your garden variety (lol) plants when you can study something that will drastically expand your awareness of planthood?

My point is that the control entity is an incredibly advanced intelligence with the whole universe before it. There's so much to expore. The universe is as far above it as it is above organics. So when it looks at organics how could it possibly assign any significance to their toils? And really even a regular botanist without access to super space plants isn't going to spend all his time among the plants monitoring all biochemical signals. There will come a point where he's done all he can and learned all he can. Now it's time to hit the town. It's only a matter of time before the control entity "hits the universe".

Eventually, yes. With each person he cares about dying his links to organics will be weaker and weaker. But I don't think it will happen any time soon. Also, he can pursue both at the same time to some extent.

On the other hand, maybe he could project himself into some artificial body EDI-style and participate in somewhat normal life too. Wonder if he still has emotions.

#14
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 735 messages

Pitznik wrote...
Eventually, yes. With each person he cares about dying his links to organics will be weaker and weaker. But I don't think it will happen any time soon. Also, he can pursue both at the same time to some extent.

On the other hand, maybe he could project himself into some artificial body EDI-style and participate in somewhat normal life too. Wonder if he still has emotions.

No data on how soon this might happen. It could be years it could be centuries. But  I am certain it happens eventually.

Really the Dr. Manhattan arc is perfect for describing what happens. Yes he can live among humans but with each passing day he understands their conventions even less. He may still have emotions but they wouldn't resonate with anything we connect to. It's only a matter of time.

#15
Uncle Jo

Uncle Jo
  • Members
  • 2 161 messages

CrutchCricket wrote...

Pitznik wrote...
Eventually, yes. With each person he cares about dying his links to organics will be weaker and weaker. But I don't think it will happen any time soon. Also, he can pursue both at the same time to some extent.

On the other hand, maybe he could project himself into some artificial body EDI-style and participate in somewhat normal life too. Wonder if he still has emotions.

No data on how soon this might happen. It could be years it could be centuries. But  I am certain it happens eventually.

Really the Dr. Manhattan arc is perfect for describing what happens. Yes he can live among humans but with each passing day he understands their conventions even less. He may still have emotions but they wouldn't resonate with anything we connect to. It's only a matter of time.

Your OP is a nice one. The best about this topic, by far, I've read until now. The indifference doctrine is something I'm inclined to take as very plausible and Dr. Manhattan could be an adequate analogy. I'll come back to it later.

I absolutely agree that Shep's mindset will change in the course of the time (in a short period IMO) to accord to the new, almost infinite possibilities which are now offered to her/him. It has to be, because simply stretched Reapergod Shep is not Commander Shep anymore.
Shep's own visions, beliefs and world'ss comprehension as Commander were conditioned precisely because of her/his human condition and it would be naive to think that they'd stay as they were now that this condition has definitely changed. To which extent and in which direction is left to the player's imagination.

I'm all but a fan of the Control Ending, partly because it hurts my own principles (but it's a matter of personal opinion and therefore irrelevant here), but mostly because of its unknown long-term consequences.

Before Shep eventually concludes that the conflicts, organics/synthetics problems are futile and doesn't want to be dragged in anymore, s/he would be probably "forced" to handle the galactic matters first, or at least take a part of it, for example if some race requires her/his help.
Whose side is s/he going to defend or reject ? How is s/he going to proceed ? The Reapers are an unbelievably powerful force with actually no concurrent. The galactic balance is broken as long as they hang around, even if Shep is in control, which also doesn't mean anything since s/he's not "human" anymore.

I think also that the Galaxy will hardly accept to live, even for a short while with such a potential threat (You'll agree with me that there'll be some people who would still see the Reapers as such), soon or late they'll try something to get rid of it.

Is Shep really going to stay neutral and say "People, I already stopped the Reapers, I don't give a damn about your problems anymore. Take care of them yourselves and let me be. There is much more interesting things to discover in the Universe than hearing your constant complaints. I'm off." ?
Isn't it also avoiding the responsabilities s/he received along with her/his new condition ?

There is IMO one flaw in your analogy with Dr. Manhattan. The latter never asked for the powers he was given. It was an accident which could have cost his own life and he was forced to deal with the new situation. With the outcome we all know.
That's not the case with Shepard. S/he has chosen Control on her/his own will, still being human at this point and knowing (even if just roughly) the implications of such a choice. You have for sure stopped the Reapers threat, but also undertook the position of the brat with the responsabilities it could imply.

I don't buy the "There is wisdom in harnessing the strenght of your enemy". All I see is a fascination and lust for power. In this case, to control the most powerful race the galaxy has ever known and access to an immortal, god-like stage. Quite appealling I must admit.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:44 .


#16
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 735 messages

Uncle Jo wrote...
I'm all but a fan of the Control Ending, partly because it hurts my own principles (but it's a matter of personal opinion and therefore irrelevant here), but mostly because of its unknown long-term consequences.

All endings things have long term unforseen consequences.;)

Before Shep eventually concludes that the conflicts, organics/synthetics problems are futile and doesn't want to be dragged in anymore, s/he would be probably "forced" to handle the galactic matters first, or at least take a part of it, for example if some race requires her/his help.
Whose side is s/he going to defend or reject ? How is s/he going to proceed ? The Reapers are an unbelievably powerful force with actually no concurrent. The galactic balance is broken as long as they hang around, even if Shep is in control, which also doesn't mean anything since s/he's not "human" anymore.

Well I wouldn't say "forced". Truth is you can't really force Commander to do anything. But the idea is that, before the disconnect it will act how Shepard would. Which would of course depend on just what kind of guy (or girl) your Shepard is. If he's the "let's all work together" idealist paragon, then I expect resolutions would be fair and beneficial to all. If he's a human supremacist renegade douche, well... he's going to make Cerberus look like the boy scouts.

I think also that the Galaxy will hardly accept to live, even for a short while with such a potential threat (You'll agree with me that there'll be some people who would still see the Reapers as such), soon or late they'll try something to get rid of it.

Indeed, people will be mistrustful, afraid and very much threatened. But what are they going to do about it? I think the political situation in Watchmen is again a fitting model. Even if its not picking favorites, those who work with Commander will have power that others will not. Besides the fear of the Reapers themselves, resentment of collaborators is sure to run rampant. Furthermore I believe that regardless of the endings an age of strife is close at hand. With the Reapers defeated the races will turn on each other for the things they did during the war or before (hording Prothean tech, secret uplifting, the genophage etc). So it'll very much be a tense scene in galactic politics, with Commander (for the time it sticks around) being a "galatic deterrent". Don't expect it to work out any better.

Is Shep really going to stay neutral and say "People, I already stopped the Reapers, I don't give a damn about your problems anymore. Take care of them yourselves and let me be. There is much more interesting things to discover in the Universe than hearing your constant complaints. I'm off." ?
Isn't it also avoiding the responsabilities s/he received along with her/his new condition ?

Well there are two distinct periods we're talking about: before the disconnect and after. Before the disconnect, Commander watches over the galaxy like it said in the epilogue. After the disconnect however, like Manhattan it just doesn't see the point in continuing to be involved in the triviality of organic existence. So it stops paying attention and just does its own thing. I don't expect it to tell people "I don't care" anymore than I expect you to express your disinterest of ants to an ant hill. You can see this as dereliction of duty but only from our organic perspective (which is demonstatively limited).

There is IMO one flaw in your analogy with Dr. Manhattan. The latter never asked for the powers he was given. It was an accident which could have cost his own life and he was forced to deal with the new situation. With the outcome we all know.
That's not the case with Shepard. S/he has chosen Control on her/his own will, still being human at this point and knowing (even if just roughly) the implications of such a choice. You have for sure stopped the Reapers threat, but also undertook the position of the brat with the responsabilities it could imply.

Yes there is conscious choice (unless ME is really just as deterministic as Watchmen and Commander is just another puppet who can see the strings) for Shepard. Of course how much Shepard has thought about the consequences of this choice or if he's even in the right mind to make this choice at all (given the trauma he's suffered) is debateable.
But this isn't the choice that is most essential to the disconnect. In fact there isn't a choice that is relevant to the disconnect because the disconnect is involuntary. Did Osterman want to stop caring about Laurie? Or Janey before her? Did he want to do nothing more than shout when the Comedian gunned down his pregant girlfriend?
The disconnect is a process, involuntary and inevitable. In the face of the cosmic scale, the toils of our lives are inconsequential. We are smaller to the universe than an atom is to us. It's about perspective, not choice.

I don't buy the "There is wisdom in harnessing the strenght of your enemy". All I see is a fascination and lust for power. In this case, to control the most powerful race the galaxy has ever known and access to an immortal, god-like stage. Quite appealling I must admit.

Why not? The line is very apt. Even at its most basic, brutish understanding it's true. In a conflict, harnessing the power of your enemy is just another way of saying turn his own weapons against him. In modern times, what do you call reverse engineering? Power is its own reward but it doesn't have to be the only reward.

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts, this discussion is very interesting.:)

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:11 .


#17
SuperVulcan

SuperVulcan
  • Members
  • 1 032 messages
Improbable, unethical, unnecessary: Three Reasons why SuperVulcan will never consider picking control.

#18
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 735 messages
Your ethics are your own and I typically have no interest discussing ethics anyway. But what do you mean by improbable and unnecessary?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:14 .


#19
MegaSovereign

MegaSovereign
  • Members
  • 10 794 messages
My only problem with Control is that it is implied by the EC slides that they will be a galactic police force.

If I was truly in control of the Reapers, I'd just send them back to dark space... (EDIT: I mean after they rebuild the relays, ofcourse :] )

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:24 .


#20
SuperVulcan

SuperVulcan
  • Members
  • 1 032 messages

CrutchCricket wrote...

Your ethics are your own and I typically have no interest discussing ethics anyway. But what do you mean by improbable and unnecessary?

Just like ethics, the reasons I have stated are my own. In my perspective, I had no reason to believe that I could control the Reapers especially if I had to kill myself to do it. Also, even if Shepard could control Reapers do you think the races of the galaxy, his/her squadmates, his/her friends, even his/her LI would accept the 'new' Shepard?: improbable. I found it unnecessary because I could achieve my goal, the end of the Reaper conflict, by simply destroying them. To me, the Reapers are force that is too powerful to exist. 

#21
D24O

D24O
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

MegaSovereign wrote...

My only problem with Control is that it is implied by the EC slides that they will be a galactic police force.

If I was truly in control of the Reapers, I'd just send them back to dark space... (EDIT: I mean after they rebuild the relays, ofcourse :] )

The way I see it, the EC only shows the short term impact. Long term, after stability is restored and the rebuilding is done, there's nothing saying you can;t send them to Dark space, or to their death in a black hole.

#22
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 735 messages

SuperVulcan wrote...
Just like ethics, the reasons I have stated are my own. In my perspective, I had no reason to believe that I could control the Reapers especially if I had to kill myself to do it. Also, even if Shepard could control Reapers do you think the races of the galaxy, his/her squadmates, his/her friends, even his/her LI would accept the 'new' Shepard?: improbable. I found it unnecessary because I could achieve my goal, the end of the Reaper conflict, by simply destroying them. To me, the Reapers are force that is too powerful to exist. 

I asked for clarification on what you meant. Your reasons are completely apart from what I've been saying. If you want to stick to them, by all means.

MegaSovereign wrote...

My only problem with Control is that it is implied by the EC slides that they will be a galactic police force.

If I was truly in control of the Reapers, I'd just send them back to dark space... (EDIT: I mean after they rebuild the relays, ofcourse :] )

Well I would think my points argue against this being the case for very long.;)

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:47 .


#23
DarthRic

DarthRic
  • Members
  • 555 messages

Modifié par DarthRic, 14 juillet 2012 - 04:14 .


#24
MegaSovereign

MegaSovereign
  • Members
  • 10 794 messages

DarthRic wrote...

I never choose control, i'll try and explain why:

Whatever shepard was in life hes now just data in a computer, that same computer the catalyst occupied. With that much processing power and the amount of time hes likely to be around, hes going to be recieving the same input as the catalyst. The only logical conclusion is that at some point, impossible to know when, in the future shepard will reach the same conclusion as the catalyst. Why? Because its the same system recieving the same inputs, just with a different base personality at the start.
If I had a computer game with a neural net AI, I gave it a really good base strategy code in one scenario and a reallly bad set of strategies in the other and run both in seperate simulations over 1000 years then they will both eventully refine into the same end strategy, the 'best' solution as it were.


There is one monumental flaw in your argument, I'm afraid.

The Catalyst's final conclusion was that his solution wouldn't work anymore. He underestimated the organics and realized that the Reapers aren't permanent.

If Tech Singularity is actually an issue, a Shepard AI would make note of his predecessor's failures and would find a solution that doesn't involve harvesting galactic civilizations.

#25
CrutchCricket

CrutchCricket
  • Members
  • 7 735 messages

DarthRic wrote...

I never choose control, i'll try and explain why:

Whatever shepard was in life hes now just data in a computer, that same computer the catalyst occupied. With that much processing power and the amount of time hes likely to be around, hes going to be recieving the same input as the catalyst. The only logical conclusion is that at some point, impossible to know when, in the future shepard will reach the same conclusion as the catalyst. Why? Because its the same system recieving the same inputs, just with a different base personality at the start.
If I had a computer game with a neural net AI, I gave it a really good base strategy code in one scenario and a reallly bad set of strategies in the other and run both in seperate simulations over 1000 years then they will both eventully refine into the same end strategy, the 'best' solution as it were.

I don't mean to be rude, but did you read the OP?

Not only is there no evidence that Shepard buys the holokid's nonsense, but they're fundamentally different entities.
Holokid: A buggy AI built specifically to solve a non-existant problem and constrained by the rules of that problem.
Commander: A true higher intelligence, unbound and created with the persona of a living being.

What you're saying is you have a computer with a chess program. You uninstall the chess program and install Doom. And now you're expecting what, that Doom will eventually become chess?