76 réponses à ce sujet

[deuce985]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Why waste time on such useless features when they could be putting resources into improving the narrative?

Because some people might value it more than others? It's an opinion.

A feature like this can improve narrative, immersion, and interactions...

Modifié par deuce985, 03 juillet 2012 - 07:33 .

[DarkDragon777]

deuce985 wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Why waste time on such useless features when they could be putting resources into improving the narrative?

Because some people might value it more than others? It's an opinion.

A feature like this can improve narrative, immersion, and interactions...

It will also waste resources that could be implemented in the main storyline and sidequests.

[deuce985]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Why waste time on such useless features when they could be putting resources into improving the narrative?

Because some people might value it more than others? It's an opinion.

A feature like this can improve narrative, immersion, and interactions...

It will also waste resources that could be implemented in the main storyline and sidequests.

How can you make that assertion when you don't know what resources they have available to them???

[DarkDragon777]

deuce985 wrote...



How can you make that assertion when you don't know what resources they have available to them???

If you analyze DA2, you can clearly see that their resources are fairly limited at the moment.

[Fast Jimmy]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...



How can you make that assertion when you don't know what resources they have available to them???

If you analyze DA2, you can clearly see that their resources are fairly limited at the moment.

If you analyze DA2, you can clearly see that if they followed the same development timeline for DA3, it would already be out.

So they are obviously putting more time, resources, polish and effort into it. 

So... that aside, I think a tavern more integrated into the world at large and the companions, as well as a source of games, fights, drinking or even some... ngiht time romping... would be a fun change of pace.

In regards to the earlier statements about Bioware's engine limiting them to having static worlds... I'd agree. You'd think I was on retained for Epic, but I think if Bioware adopted the new Unreal Engine 4, they'd be able to really create the games, worlds and stories they want to (assuming the reduction in resources and time that Epic is claiming can be achieved with the UE4).

[Fredward]

You know what would taverns more interesting? Alcohol.

So make sure you drink a bottle of vodka before your party enters. xp

[Eumopolous]

I would love to see a Heorotian mead hall--swamp creatures are optional. (A medievalist can dream).

[DarkDragon777]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If you analyze DA2, you can clearly see that if they followed the same development timeline for DA3, it would already be out.

So they are obviously putting more time, resources, polish and effort into it. 

Taking more time to make a game doesn't mean more resources are being put into it. Plus, they claim to be heeding the suggestions of their fanbase, likely meaning a longer pre-production period for them.

And with the poor sales of DA2 compared to its succesor, do you really think they have more resources at their disposal to put into the game under their tight schedule? I don't think so.

[deuce985]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...



How can you make that assertion when you don't know what resources they have available to them???

If you analyze DA2, you can clearly see that their resources are fairly limited at the moment.

If you analyze DA2, you can clearly see that if they followed the same development timeline for DA3, it would already be out.

So they are obviously putting more time, resources, polish and effort into it. 

So... that aside, I think a tavern more integrated into the world at large and the companions, as well as a source of games, fights, drinking or even some... ngiht time romping... would be a fun change of pace.

In regards to the earlier statements about Bioware's engine limiting them to having static worlds... I'd agree. You'd think I was on retained for Epic, but I think if Bioware adopted the new Unreal Engine 4, they'd be able to really create the games, worlds and stories they want to (assuming the reduction in resources and time that Epic is claiming can be achieved with the UE4).

I'm not sure about that. Based on what I read from a Bioware dev who worked on the ME team, he hinted that when Bioware first got Unreal, they needed to do a ton of overhauling on the code. In simple terms, he put it, Unreal did not handle "RPG" coding very well. I'm not really sure what he meant by that...but I'm guessing it's why ME1 played very clunky on consoles(technical issues too) and ME2 played much more polished with less technical issues. It also had less RPG mechanics.

Bioware is likely big enough now where they can build their own internal engine for their vision. They already have their own in the DAO/DA2 engine. So, they can code off that. I'm not sure why the ME team decided on a different engine than what the DA team uses...

But yes, I think the engine is a bottleneck in some regards. What those are, I can only speculate.

Modifié par deuce985, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:12 .

[deuce985]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If you analyze DA2, you can clearly see that if they followed the same development timeline for DA3, it would already be out.

So they are obviously putting more time, resources, polish and effort into it. 

Taking more time to make a game doesn't mean more resources are being put into it. Plus, they claim to be heeding the suggestions of their fanbase, likely meaning a longer pre-production period for them.

And with the poor sales of DA2 compared to its succesor, do you really think they have more resources at their disposal to put into the game under their tight schedule? I don't think so.

It's quite possible. Considering how much money Bioware is getting from ME3 right now($200 million sales in the first month alone), I'd say maybe.

Also, you can't just look at total sales and decide if DAO generated more profit than DA2. DAO sat on about a 6 year dev cycle. Probably about 2 of that wasn't true development, just an idea. DA2 sat on a about a 1 year 6 month dev cycle, maybe a little more since they were done with DAO before it got delayed for consoles. Anyways, stretching a game over several years can definitely increase budget for obvious reasons.

Just because DA2 sold about half what DAO sold doesn't mean it was less a commercial success. Who is to say what game generate Bioware more profit? 4 million to 2 million? What about the budget between a shorter and longer cycle? It all depends on the budget. I'm willing guess that DAO cost far more to make than DA2, so DA2 was considered a commercial success. It might even be the reason why Bioware tried to get DA2 out faster. While DAO was a huge success, perhaps they felt it didn't generate enough revenue for them. 

Example:

$30 million earned over 1 year and 6 months>>>>>>>>>$60 million earned over 6 years for any business.

Modifié par deuce985, 03 juillet 2012 - 09:24 .

[DarkDragon777]

deuce985 wrote...


Just because DA2 sold about half what DAO sold doesn't mean it was less a commercial success. Who is to say what game generate Bioware more profit? 4 million to 2 million? What about the budget between a shorter and longer cycle? It all depends on the budget. I'm willing guess that DAO cost far more to make than DA2, so DA2 was considered a commercial success. It might even be the reason why Bioware tried to get DA2 out faster. While DAO was a huge success, perhaps they felt it didn't generate enough revenue for them. 

Example:

$30 million earned over 1 year and 6 months>>>>>>>>>$60 million earned over 6 years for any business.

The Mass Effect department has nothing to do with the Dragon Age department. Different teams work on them.

And the profit they generated from DA2 is going to be enough for such a high-quality game Bioware claims DA3 is going to be? Nope. And if they barely have enough money to make a game as decent as Origins at this point then where are they going to get the resources to implement pointless mini-games?

[deuce985]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...


Just because DA2 sold about half what DAO sold doesn't mean it was less a commercial success. Who is to say what game generate Bioware more profit? 4 million to 2 million? What about the budget between a shorter and longer cycle? It all depends on the budget. I'm willing guess that DAO cost far more to make than DA2, so DA2 was considered a commercial success. It might even be the reason why Bioware tried to get DA2 out faster. While DAO was a huge success, perhaps they felt it didn't generate enough revenue for them. 

Example:

$30 million earned over 1 year and 6 months>>>>>>>>>$60 million earned over 6 years for any business.

The Mass Effect department has nothing to do with the Dragon Age department. Different teams work on them.

And the profit they generated from DA2 is going to be enough for such a high-quality game Bioware claims DA3 is going to be? Nope. And if they barely have enough money to make a game as decent as Origins at this point then where are they going to get the resources to implement pointless mini-games?

Bioware operates as a business...the Mass Effect team has everything to do with the DA team. If Mass Effect 3 tanked, you might not see DA3. It also could change budget and force layoffs. So yea, ME3's success has everything to do with the DA3/DA team since they all sit under the same company and publisher umbrella...

I think you're looking at the argument very differently. So we'll just agree to disagree at this point.

[DarkDragon777]

deuce985 wrote...



Bioware operates as a business...the Mass Effect team has everything to do with the DA team. If Mass Effect 3 tanked, you might not see DA3. It also could change budget and force layoffs. So yea, ME3's success has everything to do with the DA3/DA team since they all sit under the same company and publisher umbrella...

You're blindly assuming that the Mass Effect team isn't going to use their revenue to start their own projects.

deuce985 wrote...
I think you're looking at the argument very differently. So we'll just agree to disagree at this point.

Okay.

[ashwind]

Taverns in Dragon Age is definitely under utilize.

If utilized like TES, at the very least, the village/town becomes more lively - NPCs have a place to to go instead of standing at the very same spot all the time. 

It is also a good place to listen to rumors; that may lead to side quests or mini quests. I once went into a tavern in Oblivion and sat down beside and NPC and all a sudden he whispered to me and that started a mini quest - it felt so organic and nice. Bioware can definitely learn a lot from TES when it comes to setting up side quests using the Tavern.

Gossiping in the tavern is also great for the story. If I can visit DA2's tavern and speak to NPC's there when they are drunk and more forthcoming with their feelings and perspectives, it could change the choices I make in the game. 

Throw a little bit of TW2 in it and it is a place for mini games (though I am not a big fan of the mini games in TW2) - just dont over do it with insane rewards that makes players feel that they would lose something if they dont play them and it is fine (like the ultra stupid blitzball mini game that SquareEnix is forcing up my arse)

Modifié par ashwind, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:31 .

[Chipaway111]

Definitely throwing in my support for taverns. Love them. If you (hopefully) travel like you did in DAO then when visiting cities have the taverns act as the main meeting place for all the companions and when travelling use the camp-fire idea from the first game but let the ambient environment shift to reflect architecture and weather of your current position. It doesn't have to be accurate of course, but vaguely resemble the place you're currently in, just a thought.

On a related note; please please please let me have my companions in one group, just once allow me to drink (play cards, other friend related activities etc) with >all< of them it could be the prelude to a bar brawl, even how you meet a new companion(a-la Isabela). Having that poker table just sitting there doing nothing in ME3 drove me nuts.

Eh... anyway. Yes, taverns. Good idea. Please do

[Kimosabe]

This is one of the few things that really bother me in medieval style games. Taverns were one of the few, if not only, social place in that time besides the church.

People came there to forget work, relax, tell stories, drink, hear music and news, sadly it gets so little attention in games.

DA:O did have a lot of things that you expect in a tavern, music, games etc but they did nothing with it, it was just background and it was always the same, always the same people, same conversation, same music

I really liked the taverns in The Witcher, you could roll dice, fistfight, armwrestle and it changed, because of the day/night cycles you saw people coming and going etc, plus, you could actually get into drinking contests and get drunk

Same in Skyrim, more natural interactions, people walking around, music on request, maybe not the best singers but imo thats a good thing, that is realistic, the best singers would be in royal palaces etc, not in a tavern.

[Kidd]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

You know what would taverns more interesting? Alcohol.

So make sure you drink a bottle of vodka before your party enters. xp

Drunk camera effect, perhaps even drunk walking animations, please =D

[Blacklash93]

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Taking more time to make a game doesn't mean more resources are being put into it.

Generally it does. More time means more paychecks for the staff on the project and no profiting from a product release. Contrary to the notion that, for example, making a character model or animating one warrants throwing obscene amounts of cash into a desktop to make graphics appear, companies actuaully pay their staff to use programming and modeling and animation tools that create the content and that's where the money mostly goes; on the paychecks of staff. And spending more money, being the basest resource of development, to sustain staff in these longer development times means more resources are being used.

You're blindly assuming that the Mass Effect team isn't going to use their revenue to start their own projects.

Normally profits from the project of an individual dev team do not go directly to fund their next project. Rather it goes to the higher-ups and then they decide how to distribute it among the company. Profits from ME3 will very likely be partially used to fund DA3 development.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 06 juillet 2012 - 05:00 .

[brushyourteeth]

One side quest I really enjoyed in DAII was the one you receive from the mysterious lady in the Hanged Man to get rid of the guys plotting down by the docks. Bonus if you could overhear what they were saying first. I think it'd be cool to have more situations where you can overhear gossip in a tavern but only by being relatively sneaky about it. Or by buying a few rounds to loosen a few lips!

[terdferguson123]

I do agree with this, however I feel that the Hanged Man was a step up from any of the Origins bars. At the same time though, I would like to have more than one major one. To the person who quoted BG2, I agree, BG and BG2 both had several awesome taverns, look at two for example

The Five Flagons - Had 3 floors if I remember correclty with numerous sidequests, interesting people, and all topped out with a bard show on the bottom floor that also led to another enormous side quest.

Or the Copper Coronet with it's thorough underground of shady dealings and numerous sidequests not to mention the fact that there was an entire sewer system that connected itself into even more shady dealings.

This is the kind of stuff that we want from taverns frankly. Just a lot more interaction and frankly more than one or two taverns as well.

Like I said, the Hanged Man was good, and was a step in the right direction, however up the interaction a little bit more and also add a few more of the same caliber strewn about the game.

[Iakus]

I see no harm in making a tavern a center for a couple of minigames, maybe something based on cards, dice, or dart-throwing. Or a location to hear, or spread, rumors of what's going on in the rest of the world (maybe tales of your own exploits). Or even a hub for sidequests

[InfinitePaths]

If they do minigames i just hope they do it good like in TW2 i hate chesy minigames in games.I rly hate them all!

Modifié par HeriocGreyWarden, 08 juillet 2012 - 12:48 .

[InfinitePaths]

brushyourteeth wrote...

One side quest I really enjoyed in DAII was the one you receive from the mysterious lady in the Hanged Man to get rid of the guys plotting down by the docks. Bonus if you could overhear what they were saying first. I think it'd be cool to have more situations where you can overhear gossip in a tavern but only by being relatively sneaky about it. Or by buying a few rounds to loosen a few lips!

This

Modifié par HeriocGreyWarden, 08 juillet 2012 - 12:48 .

[Tokion]

The old Baldur's gate tavern were much better. Players actually need to rent a room to get their party rested every night. A day/night system were in place to make the adventure feeling more organic, this is something dragon age games lack(it feels like mass effect missions, all areas are part of a mission).

My fondess memories of baldur's gate 2 is with that inn where you get to uncover a whole house of illegal gambling and prostitution ring. Along with replacing that shady inn keeper with a jolly chubby man at the end. Also a wife caught his husband red handed was hilarious. That was a delightful story!

Modifié par Tokion, 08 juillet 2012 - 12:52 .