219 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Yes. The memorial thing where JAVIK, THE ANTI-SYNTHETIC PROTHEAN ISN'T EVEN BOTHERED ABOUT THE WHOLE THING.
I take that as evidence for my case, thank you. So they're sad about Shepard. Did I say synthesis removes all emotion. No. Is it imposing a false acceptance on everyone? By the evidence shown, yes.

You act as though no one's opinions can ever change by virtue of familiarity with that which they once hated. The whole point is to bring about greater understanding; all this shows is that what the Catalyst and EDI were talking about was actually successful.
And she's not showing emotions because of Synthesis, she can just implicitly understand organics now, emotionally as well as logically.

[ghost9191]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

Im trying to wrap my head around the whole thing like how dose shepards D.N.A cause the chain recation to happen but as far as I can tell ever one except shepard lives I mean everyone

besides the reapers that were killed because the allied races kept firing after teh shock wave. unless their minds were affected by it somehow

[Quething]

Nyoka wrote...

Synthesis makes everybody tranquil.

My life is satisfactory. I am happy and thankful for the gift of synthesis.

All is well. All is well. All is well.

... you know, now that you actually use that word, I'm really starkly reminded of DA's Tranquil. You could even call the difference between pre-EC and post-EC Synthesis similar to the difference between DA:O and DA2 Tranquility.

[The Angry One]

Xilizhra wrote...

You act as though no one's opinions can ever change by virtue of familiarity with that which they once hated. The whole point is to bring about greater understanding; all this shows is that what the Catalyst and EDI were talking about was actually successful.

Javik remained standoffish throughout the whole game, and his reaction to synthetics was consistently "throw it out the airlock".
Even if he came to tolerate EDI, that does not mean HE wants to be part synthetic, especially without his consent. There is no way that Javik with his mental faculties intact would be happy with being part synthetic.

And she's not showing emotions because of Synthesis, she can just implicitly understand organics now, emotionally as well as logically.

She could understand organics before. She gives a whole speech to you about how you helped her understand and feel alive.
Was that all a lie?

[Baronesa]

The Angry One wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You act as though no one's opinions can ever change by virtue of familiarity with that which they once hated. The whole point is to bring about greater understanding; all this shows is that what the Catalyst and EDI were talking about was actually successful.

Javik remained standoffish throughout the whole game, and his reaction to synthetics was consistently "throw it out the airlock".
Even if he came to tolerate EDI, that does not mean HE wants to be part synthetic, especially without his consent. There is no way that Javik with his mental faculties intact would be happy with being part synthetic.

And she's not showing emotions because of Synthesis, she can just implicitly understand organics now, emotionally as well as logically.

She could understand organics before. She gives a whole speech to you about how you helped her understand and feel alive.
Was that all a lie?

In fact, the synthesis speech completely negates that wonderful and touching conversation when EDI changes her code to incorporate self sacrifice.

It also negates the moment Shepard and Co look at the Geth code and tell Admiral Xen that they are a life form.

Modifié par Baronesa, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:07 .

[Xilizhra]

Javik remained standoffish throughout the whole game, and his reaction to synthetics was consistently "throw it out the airlock".
Even if he came to tolerate EDI, that does not mean HE wants to be part synthetic, especially without his consent. There is no way that Javik with his mental faculties intact would be happy with being part synthetic.

Rather an a priori conclusion there, especially since you don't exactly know what Synthesis entails or how it works. Arguably, his paranoia is a form of his mental faculties being less intact, or at least less than optimally functioning.

She could understand organics before. She gives a whole speech to you about how you helped her understand and feel alive.
Was that all a lie?

If you lost a leg in the 21st century, you could be given an adequate prosthetic. Survive another century or two, and you might be able to get a wholly lifelike leg replacement. The fact that you'd walk better and with more familiarity on the new leg doesn't mean that walking with the old leg was a lie.

In fact, the synthesis speech completely negates that wonderful and touching conversation when EDI changes her code to incorporate self sacrifice.

It also negates the moment Shepard and Co look at the Geth code and tell Admiral Xen that they are a life form.

No it doesn't. Organics are lifeforms worth defending despite being grossly suboptimal in many areas. Why should synthetics be different?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:10 .

[Saans Shadow]

I see synthesis as giving everybody the ability to understand one another. I see it as freeing the Reapers from the control of the Catalyst to give them a new future. I know a lot of people see it as morally wrong imposing your will on the galaxy but I don't agree with dominating the reapers who I see as a victim of the Catalyst. Destroying the reapers and every synthetic life-form in the galaxy is worse as far as I'm concerned and see it as committing genocide on a scale far larger it should be considered a war-crime. Not only are you killing the EDI and the Geth, at least in my play-through, you are destroying 1000+ different civilizations within the Reapers. The only thing that needed to be destroyed was the Catalyst. The Reapers were victims that needed to be freed of the atrocity of the Cycle and the Catalyst.

This is of course how I view it and certainly don't expect everybody to agree with me but I don't wish to be flogged for sharing my views. :-D

[Vigilant111]

Bone3ater wrote...

en2ym3 wrote...

Synthesis is presented as the Utopian ending, everyone's cheery, better off, and in peace.  Yet, how would they even know how to live their lives?  How would they live with Reapers and husks?

Their genetic structure  has been extremely altered, or "improved."  How would they eat/find energy?  How would they deal with their enviornments?  Could they get hurt or sick?  If so, how do they know how to heal themselves when they probably don't understand how their own biology works anymore?


I know, it's another thread complaining about/questioning the logic of Synthesis, but I was curious if anyone's managed to think of an answer for this sort of thing.

How would you know anything ever at all?

You can't know. It's all speculation. The only thing we know now, is that nobody loses their individuality with Synthesis. At least not in the near future. So we are safe to assume that they don't. Nobody knows about other conflicts that may arise thousands of years later, but that goes for every ending.
Another thing we know is that it's supposedly a good working symbiosis between logical synthetic beings and organics who are capable of understanding emotional struggles and put value in each individual being.

So, I don't understand your point tbh.

The Angry One wrote...

With the implication of them all
being connected to the Reapers and with each other, possibly the
imposition of a collective will.

Congratulations, you just created the Borg.

Right. And where the hell did you get that out of? It's stated that it's an symbiosis between organic and synthetic life, not that there is one overlord who controls the mind of all his minions or that suddenly theres an collective will. It's clearly shown in the memorial scene that all of your crewmembers retain their individuality, connection to Shepard and are still cabable of showing emotions. Even EDI is, thanks to Synthesis. It's being portrayed as a good thing, there's no conspiracy here.

You are affirming the consequent, assuming that there's only one explanation for the observation you're making. And you're jumping to conclusions.

Considering the memorial scene, it's the only evidence we have, so we have to take that, and everything in it, into account. As well as the epilogue which in no way gave any indication at all that all of the galaxys species' were mindless husks (like for example the Borg).

Seriously, without trying to be hostile here (allthough probably I am), this is getting ridicuolus.

I think synthesis is the option that involves the most speculating to date

Jumping to conclusions are already being easy on synthesis, cos we don't really have any solid facts about synthesis implementation

[ghost9191]

Xilizhra wrote...

Javik remained standoffish throughout the whole game, and his reaction to synthetics was consistently "throw it out the airlock".
Even if he came to tolerate EDI, that does not mean HE wants to be part synthetic, especially without his consent. There is no way that Javik with his mental faculties intact would be happy with being part synthetic.

Rather an a priori conclusion there, especially since you don't exactly know what Synthesis entails or how it works. Arguably, his paranoia is a form of his mental faculties being less intact, or at least less than optimally functioning.

She could understand organics before. She gives a whole speech to you about how you helped her understand and feel alive.
Was that all a lie?

If you lost a leg in the 21st century, you could be given an adequate prosthetic. Survive another century or two, and you might be able to get a wholly lifelike leg replacement. The fact that you'd walk better and with more familiarity on the new leg doesn't mean that walking with the old leg was a lie.

In fact, the synthesis speech completely negates that wonderful and touching conversation when EDI changes her code to incorporate self sacrifice.

It also negates the moment Shepard and Co look at the Geth code and tell Admiral Xen that they are a life form.

No it doesn't. Organics are lifeforms worth defending despite being grossly suboptimal in many areas. Why should synthetics be different?

so basically it rewrites javik to have him accept what has been done to him. otherwise he would not be accepting of it considering what we know of him, not unless he was changed and no longer himself

[ghost9191]

Saans Shadow wrote...

I see synthesis as giving everybody the ability to understand one another. I see it as freeing the Reapers from the control of the Catalyst to give them a new future. I know a lot of people see it as morally wrong imposing your will on the galaxy but I don't agree with dominating the reapers who I see as a victim of the Catalyst. Destroying the reapers and every synthetic life-form in the galaxy is worse as far as I'm concerned and see it as committing genocide on a scale far larger it should be considered a war-crime. Not only are you killing the EDI and the Geth, at least in my play-through, you are destroying 1000+ different civilizations within the Reapers. The only thing that needed to be destroyed was the Catalyst. The Reapers were victims that needed to be freed of the atrocity of the Cycle and the Catalyst.

This is of course how I view it and certainly don't expect everybody to agree with me but I don't wish to be flogged for sharing my views. :-D

just one thing, or two lol the reapers were made for the sole purpose of harvesting advanced organic life, they are machines, do what they were made for not something to feel sorry for. as for the war crime. they knew going into this war there would be casualties. i will not force upon the whole galaxy, including ppl still drawing on caves, just to save a race of synthetics that want nothing but death
but it is your opinion, just don't say it is better then destroy because they are all repulsive in there own way. only one that is remotely good is refusal and that is because you choose nothing

[Vigilant111]

Saans Shadow wrote...

I see synthesis as giving everybody the ability to understand one another. I see it as freeing the Reapers from the control of the Catalyst to give them a new future. I know a lot of people see it as morally wrong imposing your will on the galaxy but I don't agree with dominating the reapers who I see as a victim of the Catalyst. Destroying the reapers and every synthetic life-form in the galaxy is worse as far as I'm concerned and see it as committing genocide on a scale far larger it should be considered a war-crime. Not only are you killing the EDI and the Geth, at least in my play-through, you are destroying 1000+ different civilizations within the Reapers. The only thing that needed to be destroyed was the Catalyst. The Reapers were victims that needed to be freed of the atrocity of the Cycle and the Catalyst.

This is of course how I view it and certainly don't expect everybody to agree with me but I don't wish to be flogged for sharing my views. :-D

What do u mean by understanding each other? why is understanding in such a way so important? why can't people simply just have empathy and trust?

But the reapers are dead as husks, they are concentrates of minds of people that are long dead

Yes, the reapers are victims, but they are also mad, I would not let them out in the public

[Shadowvalker]

I see some funny problems regarding synthesis:

The first one is that my abilities to use topgrade weapons has just been reduced. I mean - I can now make really top of the line smart bombs thanks to AI's! But - too bad, they WON'T work - they can work but again - they WONT work!
If they would work - it would be suicide! Nice!!!! I do hope no new enemy from another galaxy invade ours.

I can not be sure that my coffee machine will make coffee - perhaps it want to mow the lawn or maybe it wants to peel potatoes?
Damn you all - I sometimes have enough problems getting the kids to help out - NOW I get to have the same fight with my kitchenware? No thanks...!

Then we now have a lot of teachers that are useless - We don't need them anymore.. Our "children" knows everything.! What am I to do? Sit under the old oaktree and listen to the soft metallic sound of it leaves bouncing in the metallic breeze?

If we now knows everything - what is parental role to be then? Doesn't this aspect reduce my wife and me to a mere productionline?

Just some thoughts on a messy subject.

[Bone3ater]

The Angry One wrote...
Aside from, you know, the whole thing about being connected to the Reapers and each other.
One overlord? Look up the definition of collective will.

What whole thing is connected to the Reapers? Synthesis connects everyone to the Reapers? They win? What the hell are you babbling about, seriously. Please elaborate before you try to force your opinions as facts.

And as a clarification, I wrote: "(...) not that there is one overlord who controls the mind of all his minions OR that suddenly theres an collective will."

So I advise you to read carefully the next time and stop insulting me. I understand that you might still be upset about the endings, but I see no reason for you to be hostile. It also gives you a weaker position in an an argumentation.

The Angry One wrote...
Aside from the whole thing being forced upon them, and EDI was capable
of showing emotions before this. This is forced, proves nothing, and is
sinister.

Yeah, it's forced upon them. So?  Never ever in the entire epilogue is someone outraged about this or sees it as a bad or "sinister" thing, in fact it is portrayed as the direct opposite, if you have even listened to EDI talking during the epilogue.
But you assume that they're indoctrinated of course and have no free will anymore. Enough with the conspiracy theorys already, you have nothing to back that up.

Again, you're affirming the consequent, assuming that there's only one explanation for the observation you're making. But it's not even an observation, it's your subjective hate against the ending (this is my speculation) which drives you to find "evidence" for Synthesis being "sinister".

The Angry One wrote...
Yes. The memorial thing where JAVIK, THE ANTI-SYNTHETIC PROTHEAN ISN'T EVEN BOTHERED ABOUT THE WHOLE THING.
I
take that as evidence for my case, thank you. So they're sad about
Shepard. Did I say synthesis removes all emotion. No. Is it imposing a
false acceptance on everyone? By the evidence shown, yes.

You're taking that as evidence? How even? That's one situation in a small time frame where it's about Shepards memorial, you expect him to hold a shield where it says: "I am not amused, specifically about being a synthetic-organic being now!" ? Sorry, that's biased and factless interpretation, as well as your claim that "false acceptance" was imposed on everyone.

You have no case.

[NyxFTW]

I couldn't even comprehend how post-Synthesis people live afterwards. Do they eat? Sleep? Do they plug into the overlord and eat a box of corn flakes to recharge? Are hormones eradicated if they've achieved immortality, striking off the evolutionary imperative of joining to produce offspring? (If not, how do they deal with overpopulation due to immortality?) Is the next step to their evolution include turning into godlike space gas or are they at the apex of their evolution? Does that mean civilization grids to a halt (like the Organians in Star Trek)?

I'm not a fan of the Synthetic ending, but it would be interesting to know how life goes on with such a dramatic change in biology.

[danby]

Everyone is a husk now so there will be eternal peace.  No more individuals.  More like one big galactic program.  

[JokerL117]

You would be brain washed sort of .. Think terminator they would all have purpose and serve it possibly not needing food water ect ...

[Quething]

Bone3ater wrote...

You're taking that as evidence? How even? That's one situation in a small time frame where it's about Shepards memorial, you expect him to hold a shield where it says: "I am not amused, specifically about being a synthetic-organic being now!" ? Sorry, that's biased and factless interpretation, as well as your claim that "false acceptance" was imposed on everyone.

Er. The memorial scene requires Javik to stand there feeling sad about Shepard's death.

If he didn't outright commit suicide as soon as he realized what happened to him, he would still, at a minimum, not be sad about the death of the supposed ally who betrayed his principles and forced him into this.

[The Angry One]

Bone3ater wrote...

What whole thing is connected to the Reapers? Synthesis connects everyone to the Reapers? They win? What the hell are you babbling about, seriously. Please elaborate before you try to force your opinions as facts.

This is what is stated in the game. They will now be connected to the Reapers.

And as a clarification, I wrote: "(...) not that there is one overlord who controls the mind of all his minions OR that suddenly theres an collective will."

And I wasn't talking about an overlord, so again your point is moot.

So I advise you to read carefully the next time and stop insulting me. I understand that you might still be upset about the endings, but I see no reason for you to be hostile. It also gives you a weaker position in an an argumentation.

I'm insulting you? YOU'RE the one yelling at me for not swallowing your oh so great synthesis and suddenly I'm being insulting because I'm pointing out you're making strawman arguments?

Yeah, it's forced upon them. So?  Never ever in the entire epilogue is someone outraged about this or sees it as a bad or "sinister" thing, in fact it is portrayed as the direct opposite, if you have even listened to EDI talking during the epilogue.

That's the problem.

But you assume that they're indoctrinated of course and have no free will anymore. Enough with the conspiracy theorys already, you have nothing to back that up.

Human nature backs me up. People would NOT be happy with a sudden forced change like this.

Again, you're affirming the consequent, assuming that there's only one explanation for the observation you're making. But it's not even an observation, it's your subjective hate against the ending (this is my speculation) which drives you to find "evidence" for Synthesis being "sinister".

It's logical deduction based on human nature. The ending, in it's attempt to be sappy, happy and wholesome wraps around to sinister when you realise no human being acts like this.

You're taking that as evidence? How even? That's one situation in a small time frame where it's about Shepards memorial, you expect him to hold a shield where it says: "I am not amused, specifically about being a synthetic-organic being now!" ? Sorry, that's biased and factless interpretation, as well as your claim that "false acceptance" was imposed on everyone.

You have no case.

Javik wouldn't be there. He wouldn't be comfortable. At best, he might end up killing himself. He would not be standing there, completely docile and unmoved by the situation.
You don't like what I have to say? Fine, but don't presume to insult me then claim I'm insulting you to bolster your non-existent argument.

[en2ym3]

Bone3ater wrote...

How would you know anything ever at all?

You can't know. It's all speculation. The only thing we know now, is that nobody loses their individuality with Synthesis. At least not in the near future. So we are safe to assume that they don't. Nobody knows about other conflicts that may arise thousands of years later, but that goes for every ending.
Another thing we know is that it's supposedly a good working symbiosis between logical synthetic beings and organics who are capable of understanding emotional struggles and put value in each individual being.

So, I don't understand your point tbh.

I was more asking a question than making a point.

On the whole speculation thing:
One can't know, but one doesn't just have to take what they observe for face value, purely. If people did that, Mary Sues/Gary Stus, values dissonance, etc. would technically be completely legitimate.

Intentional or not, there's a lot unexplained and at least a couple of plot holes for the Synthesis ending, and it leaves room for questions and speculation.  

Taking information at face value might be the most valid way to understand the series as the writers intended, but that wouldn't give you much to talk about, and you wouldn't be able to think about it much (or at all) without having to break away from doing such.

[ghost9191]

Bone3ater wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Aside from, you know, the whole thing about being connected to the Reapers and each other.
One overlord? Look up the definition of collective will.

What whole thing is connected to the Reapers? Synthesis connects everyone to the Reapers? They win? What the hell are you babbling about, seriously. Please elaborate before you try to force your opinions as facts.

And as a clarification, I wrote: "(...) not that there is one overlord who controls the mind of all his minions OR that suddenly theres an collective will."

So I advise you to read carefully the next time and stop insulting me. I understand that you might still be upset about the endings, but I see no reason for you to be hostile. It also gives you a weaker position in an an argumentation.

The Angry One wrote...
Aside from the whole thing being forced upon them, and EDI was capable
of showing emotions before this. This is forced, proves nothing, and is
sinister.

Yeah, it's forced upon them. So?  Never ever in the entire epilogue is someone outraged about this or sees it as a bad or "sinister" thing, in fact it is portrayed as the direct opposite, if you have even listened to EDI talking during the epilogue.
But you assume that they're indoctrinated of course and have no free will anymore. Enough with the conspiracy theorys already, you have nothing to back that up.

Again, you're affirming the consequent, assuming that there's only one explanation for the observation you're making. But it's not even an observation, it's your subjective hate against the ending (this is my speculation) which drives you to find "evidence" for Synthesis being "sinister".

The Angry One wrote...
Yes. The memorial thing where JAVIK, THE ANTI-SYNTHETIC PROTHEAN ISN'T EVEN BOTHERED ABOUT THE WHOLE THING.
I
take that as evidence for my case, thank you. So they're sad about
Shepard. Did I say synthesis removes all emotion. No. Is it imposing a
false acceptance on everyone? By the evidence shown, yes.

You're taking that as evidence? How even? That's one situation in a small time frame where it's about Shepards memorial, you expect him to hold a shield where it says: "I am not amused, specifically about being a synthetic-organic being now!" ? Sorry, that's biased and factless interpretation, as well as your claim that "false acceptance" was imposed on everyone.

You have no case.

try harder to prove us wrong maybe, i mean it is funny watching you dig a hole but it gets sad after awhile. I know i am jsut reading the conversation but you do know you too are coming off hostile as well. trying to force your belief that synthesis is the right choice down ppls throats.

That said the only thing that talks in the end is edi, she doesn't say how people react ,  that and if no one reacts negatively to it that is proof there that their minds were affected . which is what reapers do when they turn ppl into husks, control them

[Bone3ater]

Baronesa wrote...
In fact, the synthesis speech completely negates that wonderful and touching conversation when EDI changes her code to incorporate self sacrifice.

It also negates the moment Shepard and Co look at the Geth code and tell Admiral Xen that they are a life form.

How does it negate that in any way? If anything it is an wonderful addition to all of those things, because EDI "herself" said that she was feeling "truly alive now" in the Synthesis ending. It confirmed those two occurrences.

So, explanation please. And not some biased theory without any indications of it being legitimate.

[The Angry One]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rather an a priori conclusion there, especially since you don't exactly know what Synthesis entails or how it works.

In involves contaminating organic DNA with synthetic components. This much we know for sure.

Arguably, his paranoia is a form of his mental faculties being less intact, or at least less than optimally functioning.

Your opinion on the reason's for Javik's state of mind is largely irrelevant. The point is, he thinks a certain way, which does not change during the events of the game. His beliefs are totally violated by synthesis.

If you lost a leg in the 21st century, you could be given an adequate prosthetic. Survive another century or two, and you might be able to get a wholly lifelike leg replacement. The fact that you'd walk better and with more familiarity on the new leg doesn't mean that walking with the old leg was a lie.

This is about how EDI FEELS, not about how she functions. Again, you are saying everything she said about her feelings was a lie.

No it doesn't. Organics are lifeforms worth defending despite being grossly suboptimal in many areas. Why should synthetics be different?

Because synthesis flat out says EDI is not alive until she's hit with green space magic.

[savionen]

Bone3ater wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
In fact, the synthesis speech completely negates that wonderful and touching conversation when EDI changes her code to incorporate self sacrifice.

It also negates the moment Shepard and Co look at the Geth code and tell Admiral Xen that they are a life form.

How does it negate that in any way? If anything it is an wonderful addition to all of those things, because EDI "herself" said that she was feeling "truly alive now" in the Synthesis ending. It confirmed those two occurrences.

So, explanation please. And not some biased theory without any indications of it being legitimate.

EDI: I'm alive, I have a conscious, I have feelings.

After Synthesis:

EDI: I'm actually alive now. Not like before. Robots were just tools. It's a good thing you chose Destroy instead, because Geth are just tools.

[T41rdEye]

They won't live.

Because they're dead.

The Reapers are only showing you what you WANT to see so you stop resisting.