219 réponses à ce sujet

[ghost9191]

didn't say it was, but you are coming off as hostile because ppl disagree

i just love me sarcasmB)

Modifié par ghost9191, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:18 .

[Shadowvalker]

Invention is not evolution! Synthesis is an invention! It is NOT a natural selection. Darwin wins again..!

[Nerevar-as]

The Angry One wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Synthesis could not possibly be a natural form of evolution. It is not "Inevitable."

It was a forced method, and it ruined the entire cycle of life, in my opinion.

which is funny considering the catalyst said it is something that cannot be forces, or is it ironic

It is incredibly ironic. How can you not force something, that must effectively be forced?

Synthesis as a natural form of evolution would defy logic.

I imagine they mean that synthesis is inevitable for an advanced society.. which is debatable.
But even if it was inevitable.. it's still forcing it! It contradicts itself in a single sentence.

Starbrat liked so much Sarif´s ending in Human Revolution that decided to do it itself? I can´t help thinking that´s what happened with Walters & Hudson & whoever else.

[The Angry One]

Xilizhra wrote...

So... because you feel good once, you can't feel better later? That's a depressing outlook.

Not if the latter implies the former never happened.

I just gave you a possible reason. There may not be a need to do that, but I know people who do things like that anyway.

I'm talking about narrative structure. There is no reason for EDI to speak that way, it's redundant.
Moreover it doesn't feel like a reaffirmation, but an affirmation of something that has just happened.

Well, it's either that or let them figure out synthesis for themselves. If you're concerned, they could easily get just enough information to learn how to function, but I don't know if environmentally-induced evolution is necessary anymore. We may be moving into an era of wholly deliberate evolution.

Which would be a disaster for developing worlds, and you've interfered with and altered them forever either way.

[Xilizhra]

ghost9191 wrote...

didn't say it was, but you are coming off as hostile because ppl disagree

Ah? Because I was under the impression that most of the others here were calling my ideals a hideous abomination.

[en2ym3]

ghost9191 wrote...

try harder to prove us wrong maybe, i mean it is funny watching you dig a hole but it gets sad after awhile. I know i am jsut reading the conversation but you do know you too are coming off hostile as well. trying to force your belief that synthesis is the right choice down ppls throats.

That said the only thing that talks in the end is edi, she doesn't say how people react ,  that and if no one reacts negatively to it that is proof there that their minds were affected . which is what reapers do when they turn ppl into husks, control them

Bone3ater wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
In fact, the synthesis speech completely negates that wonderful and touching conversation when EDI changes her code to incorporate self sacrifice.

It also negates the moment Shepard and Co look at the Geth code and tell Admiral Xen that they are a life form.

How does it negate that in any way? If anything it is an wonderful addition to all of those things, because EDI "herself" said that she was feeling "truly alive now" in the Synthesis ending. It confirmed those two occurrences.

So, explanation please. And not some biased theory without any indications of it being legitimate.

 


Although I started this thread more to ask (whether in seriousness or silliness) for people's explanations on how this works, I suppose I'm fine with an argument over the logic of the ending - even if it's somewhat off topic.

What I would ask of you all, however, is to watch your wording toward, and treatment of, those you disagree with.

You could argue how directly insulting they are, but these are all very charged, offensive words/phrases/statements:
*"it is funny watching you dig a hole but it gets sad after awhile."
*"force...down ppls throats"
*"So, explanation please. And not some biased theory without any indications of it being legitimate."


This was just me picking from the more recently available at the time I quoted them, there are a bunch of these on the thread now, and before these posts.  It just seems like it's beginning to overrun this particular thread, now.

When one does this, they're no longer asking a legitimate question, or trying to have a good conversation or making a good argument, they're offending or belittling others. They are not saying why they disagree with the argument or why  they think that the point made is unfair, they're just stating that the other person's argument "sucks" or is "wrong."

I'm not a mod, and I have no right or moral superiority that I could order you to stop (not trying to), but I'm seeing this way, way too much on this forum.  People can disagree or argue while being civil and respectful of others as individuals.  So, I'm asking that we tone it back down a bit.  It's no where near as bad as I've seen it in some other places, but it's still not good.

Let's all get along as much as possible, yes? :]

Modifié par en2ym3, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:22 .

[The Angry One]

Baronesa wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I imagine they mean that synthesis is inevitable for an advanced society.. which is debatable.
But even if it was inevitable.. it's still forcing it! It contradicts itself in a single sentence.

Death is inevitable as well... maybe we should all commit suicide or kill everyone...  HEY it is inevitable! lolwut -.-

Knowing the Catalyst it would probably approve of such logic. It loves fallacies of inevitability.

[Xilizhra]

Not if the latter implies the former never happened.

It's advancement, not complete replacement. EDI is building on her earlier experiences.

I'm talking about narrative structure. There is no reason for EDI to speak that way, it's redundant.
Moreover it doesn't feel like a reaffirmation, but an affirmation of something that has just happened.

Your feelings seem to be irrelevant, especially when they clash with the narrative structure. The line itself may be somewhat clumsily written, but that's another matter altogether.

Which would be a disaster for developing worlds, and you've interfered with and altered them forever either way.

How can you guarantee it would be a disaster?

[ghost9191]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Invention is not evolution! Synthesis is an invention! It is NOT a natural selection. Darwin wins again..!

which is why i like destroy, it allows the races to grow and find their future on their own with out the aid of the reapers. just like the idea of them adapting and growing, overcoming problems by working together. synthesis forces a future on you, blinds you to alternatives. synthesis just seems like it would lead to stagnation.

like hacket said "together we can build a future greater then any one of us could imagine"    jusst like the idea of that

[memorysquid]

The Angry One wrote...

Everlasting peace. And unity. And uniformity.

Metal men on a metal Earth thinking metal thoughts.

Meat men on a rock earth thinking chemical thoughts.  So?

Plus, you continue to reference some game I didn't play, but that's just par for the course.

[Xilizhra]

ghost9191 wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Invention is not evolution! Synthesis is an invention! It is NOT a natural selection. Darwin wins again..!

which is why i like destroy, it allows the races to grow and find their future on their own with out the aid of the reapers. just like the idea of them adapting and growing, overcoming problems by working together. synthesis forces a future on you, blinds you to alternatives. synthesis just seems like it would lead to stagnation.

like hacket said "together we can build a future greater then any one of us could imagine"    jusst like the idea of that

Well... all the races except the one you just exterminated, at any rate.

[memorysquid]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Invention is not evolution! Synthesis is an invention! It is NOT a natural selection. Darwin wins again..!

Evolution is the result of a process of selection, not a force.  It's as natural for humans to use tools as it is for a bear to ... do stuff... in the woods.

Modifié par memorysquid, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:41 .

[ghost9191]

Xilizhra wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

Invention is not evolution! Synthesis is an invention! It is NOT a natural selection. Darwin wins again..!

which is why i like destroy, it allows the races to grow and find their future on their own with out the aid of the reapers. just like the idea of them adapting and growing, overcoming problems by working together. synthesis forces a future on you, blinds you to alternatives. synthesis just seems like it would lead to stagnation.

like hacket said "together we can build a future greater then any one of us could imagine"    jusst like the idea of that

Well... all the races except the one you just exterminated, at any rate.

eh details

sucks but i see them as a sacrifice for the greater good, not everyone does i know but i do . and they will be remembered for it

Modifié par ghost9191, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:29 .

[Shadowvalker]

Nerevar-as wrote...

I wouldn´t worry about primitive civilizations. If Javik is OK with Synthesis, it probably affected them the same way.

Uhhh - This one hurts me!

How many examples can you find in our earths history where a technologically inferior society met a technologically superior society and came out the winner! I can't find any one my self.

Columbus or Europeans arrival in south america is a classic example of what happens!

And to me ME3 is indeed such a kind of battle! Us the inferior - reapers superior.

[memorysquid]

The Angry One wrote...

Knowing the Catalyst it would probably approve of such logic. It loves fallacies of inevitability.

Its logic is valid, but it holds a potentially false statement to be true, namely that synthetics will eventually obliterate organics.  That claim is a premise; logic doesn't evaluate the truth or falsity of premises.  It ensures your conclusions are entailed by your premises.  His are.  Your evidence that in the ME universe that premise is a false one is what?

[Forbry]

Caenis wrote...

 Synthesis is the Sci Fi version of Utopia: "Technological Utopia" : 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_utopianism

They have merged with machine which means they are Human+ (Transhuman) : http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism 

(not to be confused with Post Human Theories) : 
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Posthumanism 
As there are two, "Post Human of the human species", and "Post Human in terms of Transhumanism."

Mass Effect played with this throughout the entire series, I sensed it, during the second game I was asking if anyone saw hints to Transhumanism, that's when Legion came into the picture while I was studying the Transhumanism movement. I was fascinated that Bioware would play with this and that not many were talking about it. It wasn't until ME3 after more conversations with EDI and little hints throughout the game that I began to think woah they really are going somewhere with this. I think Edi might have even had a conversation about it (and Shepard asks if she is one, Edi says no: ). Then we got to the end and I saw Synthesis... I felt 98% certain that this is where they had been heading with the conversations between Legion and Edi, and the war between the Geth, and even the conversations that began way back with Sovereign. Like it just seemed to me that they were ALWAYS headed in that direction and that they had been priming us.
The "Idea" of Synthesis is no different to me than an idea of utopia, like the idea of "Atlantis" or "Eden" or some other mythological Garden or Highly Advanced "Utopian" civilization, it is a place of peace and unity. But I believe that EVEN if something like Synthesis did happen (which it does in some parallel universes of Mass Effect ~), that the peace wouldn't last, that they would learn there is something greater than them out there, who may in turn wish to destroy them, or they may all sink into Atlantis. I also believe that they would continue to evolve past what their current idea of evolution is, and might even become something bigger than what Sovereign once was, and discover whole new Post-Galaxy ideas, that transcend even what we know. They could then become destroyed by some other massive threat that they didn't know about or that is was just unable to be stopped. So the Cycle would continue just in a different form provided they didn't go extinct. As Extinction no matter how evolved is always the RULE not the exception, and being one with the machine and able to self-improve on an as needed basis, is no exception.

I imagine that in this far future if they had the added benefit of "Reactive Evolution" similar to Darwing from the X-Men, where their bodies are programmed/designed to automatically adapt to new situations would be a plus for them. Imagine bacteria that rapidly adapted to eat Transhumans .

But these are all just "Ideas" that Mass Effect played with, which seemed at least in my mind fitting to the Sci Fi theme, though the more I think of it, ME plays with the Sci Fi genre but towards the end leaned more towards Speculative Fiction, a cross between Sci Fi and Fantasy (as the two historically have often been blurred) : 
http://en.wikipedia....fiction#Fantasy 

Why do none of the "haters" respond to this post?

[ghost9191]

Forbry wrote...

Caenis wrote...

 Synthesis is the Sci Fi version of Utopia: "Technological Utopia" : 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_utopianism

They have merged with machine which means they are Human+ (Transhuman) : http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism 

(not to be confused with Post Human Theories) : 
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Posthumanism 
As there are two, "Post Human of the human species", and "Post Human in terms of Transhumanism."

Mass Effect played with this throughout the entire series, I sensed it, during the second game I was asking if anyone saw hints to Transhumanism, that's when Legion came into the picture while I was studying the Transhumanism movement. I was fascinated that Bioware would play with this and that not many were talking about it. It wasn't until ME3 after more conversations with EDI and little hints throughout the game that I began to think woah they really are going somewhere with this. I think Edi might have even had a conversation about it (and Shepard asks if she is one, Edi says no: ). Then we got to the end and I saw Synthesis... I felt 98% certain that this is where they had been heading with the conversations between Legion and Edi, and the war between the Geth, and even the conversations that began way back with Sovereign. Like it just seemed to me that they were ALWAYS headed in that direction and that they had been priming us.
The "Idea" of Synthesis is no different to me than an idea of utopia, like the idea of "Atlantis" or "Eden" or some other mythological Garden or Highly Advanced "Utopian" civilization, it is a place of peace and unity. But I believe that EVEN if something like Synthesis did happen (which it does in some parallel universes of Mass Effect ~), that the peace wouldn't last, that they would learn there is something greater than them out there, who may in turn wish to destroy them, or they may all sink into Atlantis. I also believe that they would continue to evolve past what their current idea of evolution is, and might even become something bigger than what Sovereign once was, and discover whole new Post-Galaxy ideas, that transcend even what we know. They could then become destroyed by some other massive threat that they didn't know about or that is was just unable to be stopped. So the Cycle would continue just in a different form provided they didn't go extinct. As Extinction no matter how evolved is always the RULE not the exception, and being one with the machine and able to self-improve on an as needed basis, is no exception.

I imagine that in this far future if they had the added benefit of "Reactive Evolution" similar to Darwing from the X-Men, where their bodies are programmed/designed to automatically adapt to new situations would be a plus for them. Imagine bacteria that rapidly adapted to eat Transhumans .

But these are all just "Ideas" that Mass Effect played with, which seemed at least in my mind fitting to the Sci Fi theme, though the more I think of it, ME plays with the Sci Fi genre but towards the end leaned more towards Speculative Fiction, a cross between Sci Fi and Fantasy (as the two historically have often been blurred) : 
http://en.wikipedia....fiction#Fantasy 

Why do none of the "haters" respond to this post?

too long?

[The Angry One]

memorysquid wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Knowing the Catalyst it would probably approve of such logic. It loves fallacies of inevitability.

Its logic is valid, but it holds a potentially false statement to be true, namely that synthetics will eventually obliterate organics.  That claim is a premise; logic doesn't evaluate the truth or falsity of premises.  It ensures your conclusions are entailed by your premises.  His are.  Your evidence that in the ME universe that premise is a false one is what?

On that something that's never happened is not inevitable. On that the Geth, EDI and events in the Prothean cycle directly prove it wrong. On the simple fact that unilateral action based on the presumption on inevitability is idiotic.

Forbry wrote...

Why do none of the "haters" respond to this post?

Hater? How does one "hate" an act of evil rather than see it for what it is?
Moreover, what is there to respond to? That Mass Effect has had some concepts of transhumanism? Yes? And? So? Therefore? That justifies the sickening imposition of it on all life how?

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 juillet 2012 - 03:41 .

[Forbry]

ghost9191 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Caenis wrote...

 Synthesis is the Sci Fi version of Utopia: "Technological Utopia" : 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_utopianism

They have merged with machine which means they are Human+ (Transhuman) : http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism 

(not to be confused with Post Human Theories) : 
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Posthumanism 
As there are two, "Post Human of the human species", and "Post Human in terms of Transhumanism."

Mass Effect played with this throughout the entire series, I sensed it, during the second game I was asking if anyone saw hints to Transhumanism, that's when Legion came into the picture while I was studying the Transhumanism movement. I was fascinated that Bioware would play with this and that not many were talking about it. It wasn't until ME3 after more conversations with EDI and little hints throughout the game that I began to think woah they really are going somewhere with this. I think Edi might have even had a conversation about it (and Shepard asks if she is one, Edi says no: ). Then we got to the end and I saw Synthesis... I felt 98% certain that this is where they had been heading with the conversations between Legion and Edi, and the war between the Geth, and even the conversations that began way back with Sovereign. Like it just seemed to me that they were ALWAYS headed in that direction and that they had been priming us.
The "Idea" of Synthesis is no different to me than an idea of utopia, like the idea of "Atlantis" or "Eden" or some other mythological Garden or Highly Advanced "Utopian" civilization, it is a place of peace and unity. But I believe that EVEN if something like Synthesis did happen (which it does in some parallel universes of Mass Effect ~), that the peace wouldn't last, that they would learn there is something greater than them out there, who may in turn wish to destroy them, or they may all sink into Atlantis. I also believe that they would continue to evolve past what their current idea of evolution is, and might even become something bigger than what Sovereign once was, and discover whole new Post-Galaxy ideas, that transcend even what we know. They could then become destroyed by some other massive threat that they didn't know about or that is was just unable to be stopped. So the Cycle would continue just in a different form provided they didn't go extinct. As Extinction no matter how evolved is always the RULE not the exception, and being one with the machine and able to self-improve on an as needed basis, is no exception.

I imagine that in this far future if they had the added benefit of "Reactive Evolution" similar to Darwing from the X-Men, where their bodies are programmed/designed to automatically adapt to new situations would be a plus for them. Imagine bacteria that rapidly adapted to eat Transhumans .

But these are all just "Ideas" that Mass Effect played with, which seemed at least in my mind fitting to the Sci Fi theme, though the more I think of it, ME plays with the Sci Fi genre but towards the end leaned more towards Speculative Fiction, a cross between Sci Fi and Fantasy (as the two historically have often been blurred) : 
http://en.wikipedia....fiction#Fantasy 

Why do none of the "haters" respond to this post?

too long?

*Crying and laughing at the same time*

[Xilizhra]

Hater? How does one "hate" an act of evil rather than see it for what it is?
Moreover, what is there to respond to? That Mass Effect has had some concepts of transhumanism? Yes? And? So? Therefore? That justifies the sickening imposition of it on all life how?

It's hardly as evil as Refusal, and Destroy carries quite a high cost as well. Control is somewhat acceptable, but deeply risky.

[ghost9191]

Forbry wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Caenis wrote...

 Synthesis is the Sci Fi version of Utopia: "Technological Utopia" : 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_utopianism

They have merged with machine which means they are Human+ (Transhuman) : http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism 

(not to be confused with Post Human Theories) : 
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Posthumanism 
As there are two, "Post Human of the human species", and "Post Human in terms of Transhumanism."

Mass Effect played with this throughout the entire series, I sensed it, during the second game I was asking if anyone saw hints to Transhumanism, that's when Legion came into the picture while I was studying the Transhumanism movement. I was fascinated that Bioware would play with this and that not many were talking about it. It wasn't until ME3 after more conversations with EDI and little hints throughout the game that I began to think woah they really are going somewhere with this. I think Edi might have even had a conversation about it (and Shepard asks if she is one, Edi says no: ). Then we got to the end and I saw Synthesis... I felt 98% certain that this is where they had been heading with the conversations between Legion and Edi, and the war between the Geth, and even the conversations that began way back with Sovereign. Like it just seemed to me that they were ALWAYS headed in that direction and that they had been priming us.
The "Idea" of Synthesis is no different to me than an idea of utopia, like the idea of "Atlantis" or "Eden" or some other mythological Garden or Highly Advanced "Utopian" civilization, it is a place of peace and unity. But I believe that EVEN if something like Synthesis did happen (which it does in some parallel universes of Mass Effect ~), that the peace wouldn't last, that they would learn there is something greater than them out there, who may in turn wish to destroy them, or they may all sink into Atlantis. I also believe that they would continue to evolve past what their current idea of evolution is, and might even become something bigger than what Sovereign once was, and discover whole new Post-Galaxy ideas, that transcend even what we know. They could then become destroyed by some other massive threat that they didn't know about or that is was just unable to be stopped. So the Cycle would continue just in a different form provided they didn't go extinct. As Extinction no matter how evolved is always the RULE not the exception, and being one with the machine and able to self-improve on an as needed basis, is no exception.

I imagine that in this far future if they had the added benefit of "Reactive Evolution" similar to Darwing from the X-Men, where their bodies are programmed/designed to automatically adapt to new situations would be a plus for them. Imagine bacteria that rapidly adapted to eat Transhumans .

But these are all just "Ideas" that Mass Effect played with, which seemed at least in my mind fitting to the Sci Fi theme, though the more I think of it, ME plays with the Sci Fi genre but towards the end leaned more towards Speculative Fiction, a cross between Sci Fi and Fantasy (as the two historically have often been blurred) : 
http://en.wikipedia....fiction#Fantasy 

Why do none of the "haters" respond to this post?

too long?

*Crying and laughing at the same time*

well i just read through it, not sure if he is in favor of it or not, kinda seems like eitherway something bad will happen in synthesis. it is appealing but to have peace means you stagnate, you do not grow. and well idk i feel there woulld still be wars and such in synthesis., only difference would be a level playing field

[BeastSaver]

The things I find most abhorent in Synthesis (and Control) are the husks waking up from being controlled by the Reapers. How horrible would it be to have to live out your life as an abomination? Banshees, Brutes, Praetorians, Scions, etc...bad enough when your form is sort of what it used to be. Worse when you are two species mushed together. I, personally, would prefer death.

[Forbry]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hater? How does one "hate" an act of evil rather than see it for what it is?
Moreover, what is there to respond to? That Mass Effect has had some concepts of transhumanism? Yes? And? So? Therefore? That justifies the sickening imposition of it on all life how?

It's hardly as evil as Refusal, and Destroy carries quite a high cost as well. Control is somewhat acceptable, but deeply risky.

And every ending option "forces" something upon others...

[en2ym3]

As I recall, that particular poster was responding to the original question, not making an argument of whether Synthesis was valid. Even so, it's not completely on topic, I guess, and I wasn't sure how to respond to it. I thought it was an interesting read, though. :]