219 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Bone3ater wrote...

Stop pretending that it is an "evil" and "sinister" ending based purely on your resentment of it. You contradicted yourself btw because you're acting like your smarter then everybody else as well:

I'm not pretending anything.
I'm "acting smarter"? I am not making any claims about my intelligence, nor claiming you lack understanding.

If you feel I am more intelligent than you, well. I am flattered.

"This is not a complex and deeply thought ending." Tell me, where exactly did you achieve enlightenment? I would die to know.
Apparently I also "don't understand".

I am stating that the ending is not complex. Not that I understand it more than you.

[The Angry One]

Forbry wrote...

I will never say or think I'm smarter than you or anyone here, but yes, I do think I (and many more "fans" with me) have a greater understanding of what the synthesis as portait by Bioware in this game entails. Not in its deepest details, no not by far, because it really IS that complex, but we get the big lines (is that latter a saying in English? It's not my native language).

And yet none of you are ever able to articulate just what this complexity means to those of us who lack understanding.
Funny, is it not?

Really, you do yourself no favours by pretending you understand complexity that does not exist. It makes you appear pretentious and harms your argument.

[Welsh Inferno]

Baronesa wrote...

Ok.

Give me the facts.

Why did the soldiers stopped fighting the reapers when the green light covered them all?

Why people that ouright hate anything synthetic or hybrid like Javik apparently change their mind and are comfortable with the situation? What would make such an abrupt change?



These questions and similars are what lead to some people to infer some sort of mind altering or mind control component involved. I welcome your explanation of this not being so.

A) Confusion? Wondering what the hell just happened is the most logical conclusion.

Who said Javik is completely comfortable with the idea? He certainly doesn't say that he is. He was going to kill himself after the war anyway.(If you made that choice with the shard)

[The Angry One]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Who said Javik is completely comfortable with the idea? He certainly doesn't say that he is. He was going to kill himself after the war anyway.(If you made that choice with the shard)

Synthesis is something that goes against the core of Javik's being.
"Not being comfortable" would be an understatement.

[Shadowvalker]

Forbry wrote...

Bioware clearly considers synthesis the most "kind" ending. If you don't subject yourself to conspiracy-theories and alike, you don't Bioware statement. So If you state "facts" that cleary are in conflict with Bioware's portrait of the end, the proof of burden is on you and without that proof, your "facts" are nothing but wild assumptions, based on nothing...

If so then I guess I'm as clever as an underwater seaplane.

If I was synthesised I would no longer regard me as human. I would be something else - what I am I don't know - but NOT human!
Regardless of spacemagic I have never been able to see how you can change anything without changing it - and synthesis does exactly that - change things without changing them?

So we have now played through 3 games and changed the univers in a lot of ways - Oh - no - sorry - it's the same as it was... It was another kind of change..? Isn't this like being only a bit pregnant?

Modifié par Shadowvalker, 01 juillet 2012 - 04:34 .

[Astrogenesis]

"Synthesis is the final evolution of life."

There is no such thing as the final evolution of life. The FEoL is when the universe explodes and everything stops. Evolution is about adapting to change. And because change will be a factor up untill the destruction of the universe, FEoL can not exist.

And even if it did, I could not bring myself to stop the evolutionary groth of a species. It would be like hitting a child over the head and giving them brain damage. That child will no longer be able to learn or grow academicaly, and anything they could have been in life is no more.

[zambot]

riesenwiesel wrote...

You do not have any clue how this would look like.
That's why it's impossible for Sheprad to pick this optinon in his situation.

There is a simple truth in this.  For every demonization people can think of for synthesis, there is a reason why it is the best ending possible.  The fact of the matter is that synthesis is utter nonsense.  You say people turn into zombies.  I say they turn into unicorns.  You say people are all uniform.  I say they are just augmented versions of their true selves (unicorns).  Synthesis is space magic.  It is the ultimate incarnation of a six year old's imagination of world peace.  Trying to characterize it as bad is utter folly.  You are imposing rules and expectations on something that lacks any sort of grounding in reality.

And yes, that's why it is a ridiculous choice, but at least it's a happy ending.

[Lazengan]

memorysquid wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

I never chose synthesis

organic evolution is halted, "peace" is achieved throughout the galaxy.

Progress becomes stagnant, the futility of living in this galaxy is proven. There is literally no point in existence anymore.

I don't believe that evolution has an "end goal", it should keep on going. Utopian societies will never progress beyond anything, war and conflict must happen to keep a healthy galaxy.

Silliness.  If you think your life is meaningless, if no one is killing someone else, you have issues.

that's not what I mean

Well it is a literal entailment of what you wrote, but okay. 

Organic life is constantly evolving and changing. The catalyst for this change is chaos which is promptly solved through war and conflict. Afterwards a slight period of peace for rebuilding and advancement until another conflict arises.

A Utopian society with ever lasting peace brings evolution to a stand still, with no conflict there is no change, no progress. There is no point in living in a world that can never change.

This applies to the real world as well. True peace can never be achieved because that is the moment that we lose the will to live

You presume conflict is ... wait for it ... inevitable.  I don't.  I think it is a consequence of miscommunication, misunderstanding and lack of education in proper ethics.

it is inevitable

as long as living beings have free will there will always be conflict, but again this is not necessarily a bad thing.

you claim that conflict can be avoided through education and communication. But free will is the trump card here, with free will I can choose what I accept or what I ignore.

There can be no such thing as true peace, because that is when the evolutionary process will come to a halt.

Modifié par Lazengan, 01 juillet 2012 - 04:38 .

[Forbry]

Baronesa wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Bioware clearly considers synthesis the most "kind" ending. If you don't subject yourself to conspiracy-theories and alike, you don't Bioware statement. So If you state "facts" that cleary are in conflict with Bioware's portrait of the end, the proof of burden is on you and without that proof, your "facts" are nothing but wild assumptions, based on nothing...

Ok.

Give me the facts.

Why did the soldiers stopped fighting the reapers when the green light covered them all?

Why people that ouright hate anything synthetic or hybrid like Javik apparently change their mind and are comfortable with the situation? What would make such an abrupt change?



These questions and similars are what lead to some people to infer some sort of mind altering or mind control component involved. I welcome your explanation of this not being so.

I can describe everyting what we saw and give it an explanation that fits synthesis and, although forced (JUST LIKE THE OTHER OPTIONS!), why it's rather "kind", but I not feel like doing that. Without taking away anything of its meaning in general, I think you have to understand that Bioware had to show, in essence very complicated and also partly philosofical stuff, you first and foremost have to start thinking beyond (purely) that scenes...

[The Angry One]

Forbry wrote...

I can describe everyting what we saw and give it an explanation that fits synthesis and, although forced (JUST LIKE THE OTHER OPTIONS!), why it's rather "kind", but I not feel like doing that. Without taking away anything of its meaning in general, I think you have to understand that Bioware had to show, in essence very complicated and also partly philosofical stuff, you first and foremost have to start thinking beyond (purely) that scenes...

Sigh. You keep doing it. You know what, this topic has become a monument to futility.
Go ahead and keep pretending you have deep understanding of this oh so complex ending.

[Nerevar-as]

zambot wrote...

riesenwiesel wrote...

You do not have any clue how this would look like.
That's why it's impossible for Sheprad to pick this optinon in his situation.

There is a simple truth in this.  For every demonization people can think of for synthesis, there is a reason why it is the best ending possible.  The fact of the matter is that synthesis is utter nonsense.  You say people turn into zombies.  I say they turn into unicorns.  You say people are all uniform.  I say they are just augmented versions of their true selves (unicorns).  Synthesis is space magic.  It is the ultimate incarnation of a six year old's imagination of world peace.  Trying to characterize it as bad is utter folly.  You are imposing rules and expectations on something that lacks any sort of grounding in reality.

And yes, that's why it is a ridiculous choice, but at least it's a happy ending.

And there´s the problem. We are not 6 years old. So we think about what something like synthesis should do to people to work, and what imposing it entails. That its main writer didn´t bother to think about it doesn´t mean we don´t either.

[Forbry]

Did some of you also play Deus ex: HR? If so, was your thinking along the lines of "Purity first", (which would violate the being of the protagonist Adam Jensen)?

[Xamufam]

They would be brainwashed
because every one seemed to get along, the war would have continued if it wasn't. It would never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going on. (too much bad blood)

[Baronesa]

Ok... here it goes.


The simple idea of synthesis is akin to the idealization of a heaven or paradise maintained by some religions.

It is a place on which you'll be in complete happiness, a complete utopia... even if people you knew and cared for are not there with you, and in the case of the religions that construct a hell, even if someone you love is in the eternal suffering, you are happy, completely happy. That is why I see this view as a brainwashing... in order for you to be completely happy in such way, some part of you must be taken away.

You can't mourn those lost if synthesis forces this 6 years old happy understanding of peace. Something inside of you WAS changed

You can't enjoy a form of heaven if someone you love is in hell due to disbelief or any other cause, yet the mere idea of it insist that the happiness is complete.

Modifié par Baronesa, 01 juillet 2012 - 04:47 .

[Welsh Inferno]

Troxa wrote...

They would be brainwashed
because every one seemed to get along, the war would have continued if it wasn't. It would never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going on. (too much bad blood)

Nope. Where's any actual proof that they are "brainwashed". There isn't any.

ZOMG the ending is showing good things about something I hate, there must be a bad reason behind this!

[wicked_being]

Hmm I don't know about you guys but if I was living in that utopian society created by the green space magic, I'd be reaaaally bored.

I wake up one day and suddenly I know the secrets of the universe. Where's the fun in that? If I want to know what's in dark space or on planet X, I'll just ask the friendly neighborhood Mr. Reaper to show me.

I don't have to work for anything anymore because apparently everyone's being nice to each other. I don't have to worry about time or my health because eventually we can transcend mortality. Sweet...I can smoke and drink all I want.

[Nerevar-as]

Forbry wrote...

Did some of you also play Deus ex: HR? If so, was your thinking along the lines of "Purity first", (which would violate the being of the protagonist Adam Jensen)?

I chose Sarif´s ending. Mainly to screw the Illuminatti, but pacifist Jensen really sold it. But "synthesis" there was the goal technology was naturally evolving towards, and most of the movements against it were plots so the Illuminatti could keep control of human progress. It wasn´t something forced on the world. But I doubt Adam would thank Page about making him not need drugs.

[Bone3ater]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Bone3ater wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Bone3ater wrote...
True. He's forcing it. But the choice is circumstantial, Shepard does it to save the galaxy and to effectively break the cycle of organic harvesting by the reapers. It is not born out of evil will or the goal to submit everyone.

And yeah, the statement from the Catalyst is a little bit contradicting. Though I guess what he meant was that he tried it with violence? I dunno for sure. But then again, it doesn't seem to destroy the individual, it just gives all life forms "understanding" and perhaps tolerance? Doesn't seem so bad to me even if it's

It changes the way people think. It doesn´t ask for their opinion nor even allow them to be angry about it. I can´t think of few worst things to do to someone.

What? How would you know that it doesn't allow them to be angry about it? Or that it changes the way people think entirely (which you suggest)? Synthetic-Organic Hybrid, they're not mindless machines without any free will or thought. Where does that idea even come from? Seriously.

And well, I can think of a lot worse things to do to people, like processing them into organic paste and creating giant spaceships out of it.

You really believe that if a green light changed your very being people would be happy about it? Synthesis has to change people´s perception of some things to work.

What I believe is irrelevant. What we see is important. My point is that there is no indication whatsoever to "believe"
that it would destroy individuality. And I'm more inclined to "believe", for the lack of a better word, that Synthesis is something good for the galaxy in ME, because of what I've seen in the epiloque and EC.

But you're right of course, Synthesis has to change something in everybody. We don't know for sure what though, but wouldn't it be better to speculate based on the little scenes we saw with the people affected, then based on nothing?

Baronesa wrote...

Forbry wrote...

Bioware
clearly considers synthesis the most "kind" ending. If you don't subject
yourself to conspiracy-theories and alike, you don't Bioware statement.
So If you state "facts" that cleary are in conflict with Bioware's
portrait of the end, the proof of burden is on you and without that
proof, your "facts" are nothing but wild assumptions, based on
nothing...

Ok.

Give me the facts.

Why did the soldiers stopped fighting the reapers when the green light covered them all?

Why
people that ouright hate anything synthetic or hybrid like Javik
apparently change their mind and are comfortable with the situation?
What would make such an abrupt change?



These questions
and similars are what lead to some people to infer some sort of mind
altering or mind control component involved. I welcome your explanation
of this not being so.

Really? Those are you questions? You can answer them by yourself I think. But you're more inclined to believe some conspiracy because your dissatisfied with the ending, I presume.

Well, I would say the soldiers stopped fighting because of the giant green explosion that covered everybody.

And nobody said that all of the beings in the galaxy are satisfied with the change. Nobody knows. You created a Strawman.

The Angry One wrote...

Bone3ater wrote...

Stop
pretending that it is an "evil" and "sinister" ending based purely on
your resentment of it. You contradicted yourself btw because you're
acting like your smarter then everybody else as well:

I'm not pretending anything.
I'm "acting smarter"? I am not making any claims about my intelligence, nor claiming you lack understanding.

If you feel I am more intelligent than you, well. I am flattered.

....this is getting ridicoulus. I guess you're not claiming that Synthesis is evil then and everybody who believes otherwise just "doesn't get it"?
Please, spare me with your nonsense.

[The Angry One]

I am saying synthesis is evil. Where did I say you don't get it if you disagree?

Again, stop projecting your own hostility onto me.

[zambot]

Nerevar-as wrote...

zambot wrote...

riesenwiesel wrote...

You do not have any clue how this would look like.
That's why it's impossible for Sheprad to pick this optinon in his situation.

There is a simple truth in this.  For every demonization people can think of for synthesis, there is a reason why it is the best ending possible.  The fact of the matter is that synthesis is utter nonsense.  You say people turn into zombies.  I say they turn into unicorns.  You say people are all uniform.  I say they are just augmented versions of their true selves (unicorns).  Synthesis is space magic.  It is the ultimate incarnation of a six year old's imagination of world peace.  Trying to characterize it as bad is utter folly.  You are imposing rules and expectations on something that lacks any sort of grounding in reality.

And yes, that's why it is a ridiculous choice, but at least it's a happy ending.

And there´s the problem. We are not 6 years old. So we think about what something like synthesis should do to people to work, and what imposing it entails. That its main writer didn´t bother to think about it doesn´t mean we don´t either.

Yes, and my point is that you should just stop trying to interpret synthesis as an ending.  With synthesis you are looking at an ink blot and trying to impose order on it based upon what you know and what you perceive about the real world.  But it's just an ink blot.  You might learn something about yourself, I guess, by what you see in that ink blot, but it's still just an ink blot.

[Shadowvalker]

www.youtube.com/watch

[Baronesa]

Shadowvalker wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

I guess this is the best response so far.

Modifié par Baronesa, 01 juillet 2012 - 04:57 .

[Welsh Inferno]

wicked_being wrote...

Hmm I don't know about you guys but if I was living in that utopian society created by the green space magic, I'd be reaaaally bored.

I wake up one day and suddenly I know the secrets of the universe. Where's the fun in that? If I want to know what's in dark space or on planet X, I'll just ask the friendly neighborhood Mr. Reaper to show me.

I don't have to work for anything anymore because apparently everyone's being nice to each other. I don't have to worry about time or my health because eventually we can transcend mortality. Sweet...I can smoke and drink all I want.

As if boredom doesn't exist now.... Oh I guess cause you dislike the ending it must obviously be worse in some way right?

So you would rather we not seek out, try to learn and then progress from what we learn? We should leave mysteries as they are because its "fun" to speculate? 

BioWare pretty much messed up with exposition on the ending. All the endings should of spoken about positives AND negatives, but nope. After the fan complaints I bet BW thought it would be a good idea to make all the endings as happy as possible. Bad idea. I don't see it as a everyone is brainwashed, happy forever, Utopic society. Why don't you have to work? Or not want to work. Makes no sense. I would be more intent on working to improve myself and everything around me.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:01 .

[Tooneyman]

I'm sorry I just have to throw this smart comment in. People would live GREEN!

[Shadowvalker]

Baronesa wrote...

Shadowvalker wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

I guess this is the best response so far.

Well I find it very much appropriate - especially the few words prior to the song..