47 réponses à ce sujet

[hero 2]

 http://dragonage.wik...i/Talkative_man 
"Do you ever feel like the world's getting... simpler? Like everything from eating to fighting is a lot less complex than it used to be?" 


Perhaps the world is getting... simpler. Maybe too simple? Okay, I don't want to have to remember to eat, but modern games appear to be more about completing checklists and finding map-markers. Should it be more complex? If so, how would you do balance convenience and exploration?

[Tokion]

Bioware games getting too streamline imo. I remember in Baldur's gate you have to take care of your companion's tiredness by finding an inn every 24 hours, or sleep in safe areas. New areas opens when you walk to the edge of a map. That felt much more adventurous than Dragon Age's hub missions.

Modifié par Tokion, 01 juillet 2012 - 02:12 .

[mad825]

Some going to have to stage a coup in Bioware....That quote seems like they're kicking themselves in the balls.

[Plaintiff]

You say "complex". I say "tedious".

Origins had mapmarkers too. Its quests (save for the very few involving genuine puzzles) were not any more difficult or mentally taxing than the ones in DA2, they were just longer overall.

Removing mapmarkers wouldn't make things more "complex" anyway, for that matter. Wandering around aimlessly, relying on vague instructions, hoping to hit a goal you can't see is not a difficult task, it is just an exceedingly boring one. I get plenty of tedium in my real life, thanks, I'd rather my games felt as little like work as possible.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:15 .

[hero 2]

Plaintiff wrote...

You say "complex". I say "tedious".
[..]
Removing mapmarkers wouldn't make things more "complex" anyway, for that matter. Wandering around aimlessly, relying on vague instructions, hoping to hit a goal you can't see is not a difficult task, it is just an exceedingly boring one. I get plenty of tedium in my real life, thanks, I'd rather my games felt as little like work as possible.

Believe it or not, I agree with your opinion, but it seems that there are many on these forums who want some of the P.I.T.A./traditional RPG elements. I think one of the reasons for Bioware's success is that they have cut a lot of the crap out of the model and kept the interesting elements. 

I think Dragon Age II was another step in this process, but one that many people weren't ready for.

[Dwarva]

Plaintiff wrote...

You say "complex". I say "tedious".

Origins had mapmarkers too. Its quests (save for the very few involving genuine puzzles) were not any more difficult or mentally taxing than the ones in DA2, they were just longer overall.

Removing mapmarkers wouldn't make things more "complex" anyway, for that matter. Wandering around aimlessly, relying on vague instructions, hoping to hit a goal you can't see is not a difficult task, it is just an exceedingly boring one. I get plenty of tedium in my real life, thanks, I'd rather my games felt as little like work as possible.

I tend to agree with this. On the Bethesda forums there was recently a thread about 'games you want to get into but are too complicated'. I noted that I really wanted to get into BG but, because I came into RPGs late in the game, it's simply too 'process intensive' for me to enjoy. While I understand the appeal and know it can be particularly immersive, players now just aren't used to that level of detail. I mentioned on the thread that I was perfectly willing to admit that this generation of RPGs have left me with a sense of 'hand holding' and that I often want to be pointed to something rather than spend an hour of my time finding it myself. Someone noted that many older RPGs were designed for hardcore nerds (their words....not mine ) and so the processes involved were just accepted. Now many gamers want a great story with the ability to make an impact  into the world of their game.....but without the drugery of every...single....little.....detail...

[Androme]

many on these forums who want some of the P.I.T.A./traditional RPG elements. I think one of the reasons for Bioware's success is that they have cut a lot of the crap out of the model and kept the interesting elements. 

I think Dragon Age II was another step in this process, but one that many people weren't ready for.

Man are you ****ting us or were you drunk when writing this? Or am I wrong and understood what you just wrote completely wrong? Dragon Age II, a step to the right direction in terms of traditional RPG elements? WTF?

[hero 2]

Androme wrote...

am I wrong and understood what you just wrote completely wrong?

Yup.

[TonberryFeye]

A lot of this simplying is simply not necessary if you build the god-damn game right first time.

Any game where I stop and say "I have no idea what I'm supposed to do." is a badly designed game. That does not mean I need a giant glowing arrow to appear every fifteen feet so I cannot possibly get lost. What it means is you need to build the game without ambiguity.

For example, let's say we have a game where I meet an NPC and he tells me to go and kill the Evil Lich. A bad game stops there or treats me like an infant and produces a magical guiding pointer. Both of these choices are wrong.
A good game tell me to "go and kill the Evil Lich who lives in Darkwood Forest." It then without leaving the conversation gives me an option, if I want it, to ask how to get there. This information should also be added into a database somewhere (even if I don't ask for it). Why? Because if I don't play this game for a week I might not remember what I was doing when I come back to it. Being able to look at my quest guide and see "you are supposed to kill the Evil Lich in Darkwood Forest, the entrance to which is found in the village of Hamletsville."

To use a Dragon Age specific example, Origins works well by putting everything you need close together. The Elf Quest is contained entirely in the Brecillian Forest, the Dwarf Quest is in Orzammar and the Deep Roads (which can only be reached via Orzammar) and so on. As long as I know what main quest I am following, it's easy to keep myself on track because I know I don't have to leave a specific region; whatever I'm seeking is going to be nearby.

[wsandista]

Yes they are getting simpler. Maybe they'll completely remove attributes, abilities,equipment, and levels in the next game. I think those things might be a little too "tedious" for some people.

[Androme]

hero 2 wrote...

Androme wrote...

am I wrong and understood what you just wrote completely wrong?

Yup.

Instead of a ''yup'', a clarification would've been nice. So what were you trying to say then?

[eroeru]

Staarbux wrote...

While I understand the appeal and know it can be particularly immersive, players now just aren't used to that level of detail. 

How would you substantiate that claim? As in "they're always fed that stuff, and made things easy, so they don't have to think"? Well, at least that would be my take on it.

mad825 wrote...

Some going to have to stage a coup in Bioware....That quote seems like they're kicking themselves in the balls.

 

Yes! One who makes sense and hasn't wandered off to the infinitum of off-topic and/or RL. 

(sorry for all who don't agree - and I don't think bad of you... but I do think you are vouching for objectively worse games. "Simpler" mostly means less stimulating, less believable, less content and less brain function)

The talkative man speaks the truth. :happy:

Modifié par eroeru, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:58 .

[hero 2]

Androme wrote...
So what were you trying to say then?

Below is a depiction of the arrow of time:

>>>                                    >

As time progresses, so does the evolution of video games. RPGs are a genre of video game.

It is my assessment that in some areas, DA2 evolved the genre too much. It is only subsequently, in hindsight, that we can suggest that people, on the whole, want to have to (or "to be able to", depending on your perspective) change their companion's armour around. 

In other areas DA2 really pushed the action forward, making action-hero characters perform heroic physical moves befitting of their status.

I think that the change in style of the UI from old to ultra-modern was a step too much for a lot of genre fans. Ye olde mappe with ripped edges and bent over corners was replaced by a super-clean, beautiful but strange stylistic representation of Kirkwall. 

Combine all of the progressive elements and you have a game that fans of the old high fantasy world of DA might not be quite as immersed in.

Some things are obviously progressive and should stay, others have proven quite unpopular and might be rolled back or re-imagined a second time.

[Plaintiff]

wsandista wrote...

Yes they are getting simpler. Maybe they'll completely remove attributes, abilities,equipment, and levels in the next game. I think those things might be a little too "tedious" for some people.

None of those things are actually needed for an RPG, anyway, so it wouldn't be a huge loss.

[Melca36]

Plaintiff wrote...

You say "complex". I say "tedious".

Origins had mapmarkers too. Its quests (save for the very few involving genuine puzzles) were not any more difficult or mentally taxing than the ones in DA2, they were just longer overall.

Removing mapmarkers wouldn't make things more "complex" anyway, for that matter. Wandering around aimlessly, relying on vague instructions, hoping to hit a goal you can't see is not a difficult task, it is just an exceedingly boring one. I get plenty of tedium in my real life, thanks, I'd rather my games felt as little like work as possible.

Why bother playing games if you just want things handed to you? 

[Melca36]

wsandista wrote...

Yes they are getting simpler. Maybe they'll completely remove attributes, abilities,equipment, and levels in the next game. I think those things might be a little too "tedious" for some people.

People just want things handed to them. <_<  Its a sad reflection on how society has gotten lazier.

[wsandista]

Plaintiff wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Yes they are getting simpler. Maybe they'll completely remove attributes, abilities,equipment, and levels in the next game. I think those things might be a little too "tedious" for some people.

None of those things are actually needed for an RPG, anyway, so it wouldn't be a huge loss.

Maybe having any choices should be scrapped too. They aren't actually needed either. Better yet why not just completely turn DA into a movie? Gameplay isn't actually needed to tell a story, so it wouldn't be a huge loss.

Melca36 wrote...

People just want things handed to them. <_<  Its a sad reflection on how society has gotten lazier. 

Don't know about society as a whole, but gamers definitely. Who needs engaging gameplay when you can have cinematics amirite?

Modifié par wsandista, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:35 .

[Plaintiff]

Melca36 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

You say "complex". I say "tedious".

Origins had mapmarkers too. Its quests (save for the very few involving genuine puzzles) were not any more difficult or mentally taxing than the ones in DA2, they were just longer overall.

Removing mapmarkers wouldn't make things more "complex" anyway, for that matter. Wandering around aimlessly, relying on vague instructions, hoping to hit a goal you can't see is not a difficult task, it is just an exceedingly boring one. I get plenty of tedium in my real life, thanks, I'd rather my games felt as little like work as possible.

Why bother playing games if you just want things handed to you? 

Gosh, I don't know, maybe because I play games to have fun. If I want work, I'll go to work. If I want to click around a computer screen aimlessly and have nothing happen, then I don't even need to boot up a game to do that.

Who said I want things handed to me? I like a challenge as much as the next guy, as long as it's balanced with reward. My issue is tht removing mapmarkers will not help that. But hey, you'd know that already if you'd actually read my post.

A simple task does not become magically more difficult just because you are deprived of adequate instruction. Exploring every inch of a game area, hoping that I randomly hit upon the plot coupon I'm looking for is not a difficult task. I never said it was difficult, in fact, I explicitly said that it is not difficult. I am perfectly capable of clicking aimlessly around  a screen and getting nowhere. I am perfectly capable of "heading south to find the magical hidden door", but you know what? South is a big place. I could run right pass that door without ever seeing it, and then I'd have to spend hours backtracking, checking every square inch of the area and making no progress.

But why the **** would I want to? That **** is not fun. I have other stuff I could be doing, and if your game isn't fun, I'm not going to play it. Games are supposed to be entertaining, and being stuck in one area for hours and hours because I can't find the thing I'm meant to be looking for is not entertaining.

Real complexity would be if Bioware started putting in more dungeon puzzles, or required the player to translate codes, or answer riddles, or making a more involved combat system. Something that requires players to actually use their brains. Removing map markers would not facilitate that.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:52 .

[Plaintiff]

wsandista wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Yes they are getting simpler. Maybe they'll completely remove attributes, abilities,equipment, and levels in the next game. I think those things might be a little too "tedious" for some people.

None of those things are actually needed for an RPG, anyway, so it wouldn't be a huge loss.

Maybe having any choices should be scrapped too. They aren't actually needed either. Better yet why not just completely turn DA into a movie? Gameplay isn't actually needed to tell a story, so it wouldn't be a huge loss

If I didn't know better, I'd swear this was a joke, but I know how you love to slide down the slippery slope fallacy with your strawmen.

There other ways to roleplay. Attributes, abilities and equipment are not inherently required. Maybe if they scrapped the ancient mechanics that you and so many others insist are "needed", people might actually be forced to get creative with their games for a change.

[wsandista]

Plaintiff wrote...

If I didn't know better, I'd swear this was a joke, but I know how you love to slide down the slippery slope fallacy with your strawmen.

Yes, I pull out the slippery slop because i call you out for wanting to take out the mechanics that have been in party-based RPGs forever.

There other ways to roleplay. Attributes, abilities and equipment are not inherently required. Maybe if they scrapped the ancient mechanics that you and so many others insist are "needed", people might actually be forced to get creative with their games for a change.

Yes, DA2 tried to change things and did great. Remeber how it sold more copies than DAO and received critical acclaim? Oh wait it didn't, because people actually buy party-based RPGs for those mechanics. I know, some actually like playing those games that you hate. Maybe you could try Call of Duty? I'm sure that's much more suited to your tastes.

[Tommyspa]

As long as they continue removing the tedium out of games I'll be happy. Spending a lot of time in menus throughout a game is a real unnecessary thing. Believe it or not, I do not need numbers to tell me if I am winning in a RPG.

Modifié par Tommyspa, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:24 .

[wsandista]

Tommyspa wrote...

As long as they continue removing the tedium out of games I'll be happy. Spending a lot of time in menus throughout a game is a real unnecessary thing. Believe it or not, I do not need numbers to tell me if I am winning in an RPG.

Would you be happy with the complete removal of attributes, equipment, skills, or any gameplay mechanic that differentiates PCs?

[wowpwnslol]

While some simplicity can be good for the game, for example clear quest markers, which allow you to actually go do a quest instead of wandering around for hours. But dumbing down games for ADD consolers is unacceptable either: I do not appreciate not having a combat log, for example. In NWN series, all the math was on the screen. Why can't DA implement this featurs?

Of course, removing things like stats and inventory management is unacceptable. This isn't lame-o JRPG we're talking about here.

Modifié par wowpwnslol, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[Plaintiff]

wsandista wrote...
Yes, I pull out the slippery slop because i call you out for wanting to take out the mechanics that have been in party-based RPGs forever.

I didn't say I want them gone, I said they aren't necessary. For someone complaining about people not wanting to do the "work" to play a game, you sure aren't big on doing the work to actually read my posts.

Yes, DA2 tried to change things and did great. Remeber how it sold more copies than DAO and received critical acclaim? Oh wait it didn't, because people actually buy party-based RPGs for those mechanics. I know, some actually like playing those games that you hate. Maybe you could try Call of Duty? I'm sure that's much more suited to your tastes.

The fact that DA2 sold poorly proves nothing, except that audiences are stupid. Also, DA2 does not differ from Origins in any significant or meaningful way, so there's that.

Whoops, you caught me. I hate party-based RPGs. I bought and registered two of them just so I could come here and talk about how terrible they are. My nefarious plot, you have uncovered it. Of course, it could never just be that I genuinely want the genre to grow beyond its thirty-year-old confines and try new things. Why would I want an ocean when I can swim in a stagnant pond?

Call of Duty might have excellent gameplay. I don't know, I don't care. I'm not going to play it because I like fantasy, not historical/modern warfare stories. But at least I don't go around badmouthing things I've never even tried.

[Plaintiff]

wowpwnslol wrote...

While some simplicity can be good for the game, for example clear quest markers, which allow you to actually go do a quest instead of wandering around for hours. But dumbing down games for ADD consolers is unacceptable either: I do not appreciate not having a combat log, for example. In NWN series, all the math was on the screen. Why can't DA implement this featurs?

Of course, removing things like stats and inventory management is unacceptable. This isn't lame-o JRPG we're talking about here.

JRPGs have stats and inventory management.