47 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

wsandista wrote...

Would you be happy with the complete removal of attributes, equipment, skills, or any gameplay mechanic that differentiates PCs?

Anyone who genuinely advocates for the removal of these features in Rpg's, would probably consider God of War or Devil May Cry as complex.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:04 .

[wowpwnslol]

Plaintiff wrote...

JRPGs have stats and inventory management.

My JRPG experience is mostly limited to Final Fantasy series, which were dumbed down even by Square's standards. In FF8, you had no armors, amulets, rings, boots etc and the inventory "management" consisted of managing potions. No stat distribution on level up, no talent trees. I pretty much gave up on JRPGs because they are like a book you are forced to read, rather than a world you can influence.

[Tommyspa]

wsandista wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

As long as they continue removing the tedium out of games I'll be happy. Spending a lot of time in menus throughout a game is a real unnecessary thing. Believe it or not, I do not need numbers to tell me if I am winning in an RPG.

Would you be happy with the complete removal of attributes, equipment, skills, or any gameplay mechanic that differentiates PCs?

Yes remove all of it. But only because you can't stop doing the slippery slope tactic.

[Melca36]

Plaintiff wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

You say "complex". I say "tedious".

Origins had mapmarkers too. Its quests (save for the very few involving genuine puzzles) were not any more difficult or mentally taxing than the ones in DA2, they were just longer overall.

Removing mapmarkers wouldn't make things more "complex" anyway, for that matter. Wandering around aimlessly, relying on vague instructions, hoping to hit a goal you can't see is not a difficult task, it is just an exceedingly boring one. I get plenty of tedium in my real life, thanks, I'd rather my games felt as little like work as possible.

Why bother playing games if you just want things handed to you? 

Gosh, I don't know, maybe because I play games to have fun. If I want work, I'll go to work. If I want to click around a computer screen aimlessly and have nothing happen, then I don't even need to boot up a game to do that.

Who said I want things handed to me? I like a challenge as much as the next guy, as long as it's balanced with reward. My issue is tht removing mapmarkers will not help that. But hey, you'd know that already if you'd actually read my post.

A simple task does not become magically more difficult just because you are deprived of adequate instruction. Exploring every inch of a game area, hoping that I randomly hit upon the plot coupon I'm looking for is not a difficult task. I never said it was difficult, in fact, I explicitly said that it is not difficult. I am perfectly capable of clicking aimlessly around  a screen and getting nowhere. I am perfectly capable of "heading south to find the magical hidden door", but you know what? South is a big place. I could run right pass that door without ever seeing it, and then I'd have to spend hours backtracking, checking every square inch of the area and making no progress.

But why the **** would I want to? That **** is not fun. I have other stuff I could be doing, and if your game isn't fun, I'm not going to play it. Games are supposed to be entertaining, and being stuck in one area for hours and hours because I can't find the thing I'm meant to be looking for is not entertaining.

Real complexity would be if Bioware started putting in more dungeon puzzles, or required the player to translate codes, or answer riddles, or making a more involved combat system. Something that requires players to actually use their brains. Removing map markers would not facilitate that.

We'll just have to agree to disagreee.

For $60 I don't want a 15 minute Fade experience or lazy, boring jaunt in the Deep Roads. I want Depth.

I don't want instant gratification. There is satisfaction I get when completing every area of the game.

[Plaintiff]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

JRPGs have stats and inventory management.

My JRPG experience is mostly limited to Final Fantasy series, which were dumbed down even by Square's standards. In FF8, you had no armors, amulets, rings, boots etc and the inventory "management" consisted of managing potions. No stat distribution on level up, no talent trees. I pretty much gave up on JRPGs because they are like a book you are forced to read, rather than a world you can influence.

FF8 has a very involved stat-level system (albeit, one that is easily exploited). You don't have to like it, but just because it works differently doesn't mean it isn't there. Junctioning Guardian Forces to a party member is functionally identical to "equipping" them with gear. The differences are so superficial as to be meaningless. They may use different words, but the process is the same.

The fact that the stories are very linear is a separate issue.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:02 .

[wsandista]

Plaintiff wrote...

I didn't say I want them gone, I said they aren't necessary. For someone complaining about people not wanting to do the "work" to play a game, you sure aren't big on doing the work to actually read my posts.

Actually I haven't said that. Maybe you should read my posts before you attack a strawman. I guess that would be tedious though.

The fact that DA2 sold poorly proves nothing, except that audiences are stupid.

Yes, because people not liking a product makes them stupid.

Also, DA2 does not differ from Origins in any significant or meaningful way, so there's that.

So a voiced PC, combat speed, removal of tier systems, art style, removal of origins, and removal of non-combat skills are not differences?

Whoops, you caught me. I hate party-based RPGs. I bought and registered two of them just so I could come here and talk about how terrible they are. My nefarious plot, you have uncovered it. Of course, it could never just be that I genuinely want the genre to grow beyond its thirty-year-old confines and try new things. Why would I want an ocean when I can swim in a stagnant pond?

There is a difference between "grow" and "completely change". If you can't understand why party-based RPGs have the mechanics they do, you should maybe research it before you talk out of your ass.

Call of Duty might have excellent gameplay. I don't know, I don't care. I'm not going to play it because I like fantasy, not historical/modern warfare stories. But at least I don't go around badmouthing things I've never even tried.

I do play COD. t's a fun game with none of the "tedious" things that bother you so much. I just don't want my RPGs to play like my FPSs. Maybe before you i don't know, badmouth something, you should at least try to understand why it is there.

[wsandista]

Tommyspa wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

As long as they continue removing the tedium out of games I'll be happy. Spending a lot of time in menus throughout a game is a real unnecessary thing. Believe it or not, I do not need numbers to tell me if I am winning in an RPG.

Would you be happy with the complete removal of attributes, equipment, skills, or any gameplay mechanic that differentiates PCs?

Yes remove all of it. But only because you can't stop doing the slippery slope tactic.

It is a slippery slope. You remove something because a group finds it tedious, then you could remove everything some find tedious.

[wowpwnslol]

Plaintiff wrote...

FF8 has a very involved stat-level system (albeit, one that is easily exploited). You don't have to like it, but just because it works differently doesn't mean it isn't there. Junctioning Guardian Forces to a party member is functionally identical to "equipping" them with gear. The differences are so superficial as to be meaningless. They may use different words, but the process is the same.

The fact that the stories are very linear is a separate issue.

I disagree. Junctioning best magic to every stat didn't take any thought - in fact it limited you because you couldn't use that magic and not weaken your character.

The itemization was horrible, you pretty much had one weapon, which you upgrades throughout the game. There were no talent trees or skills etc. To me JRPGs are basically movies where you have a small level of participation.

[Plaintiff]

Melca36 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

You say "complex". I say "tedious".

Origins had mapmarkers too. Its quests (save for the very few involving genuine puzzles) were not any more difficult or mentally taxing than the ones in DA2, they were just longer overall.

Removing mapmarkers wouldn't make things more "complex" anyway, for that matter. Wandering around aimlessly, relying on vague instructions, hoping to hit a goal you can't see is not a difficult task, it is just an exceedingly boring one. I get plenty of tedium in my real life, thanks, I'd rather my games felt as little like work as possible.

Why bother playing games if you just want things handed to you? 

Gosh, I don't know, maybe because I play games to have fun. If I want work, I'll go to work. If I want to click around a computer screen aimlessly and have nothing happen, then I don't even need to boot up a game to do that.

Who said I want things handed to me? I like a challenge as much as the next guy, as long as it's balanced with reward. My issue is tht removing mapmarkers will not help that. But hey, you'd know that already if you'd actually read my post.

A simple task does not become magically more difficult just because you are deprived of adequate instruction. Exploring every inch of a game area, hoping that I randomly hit upon the plot coupon I'm looking for is not a difficult task. I never said it was difficult, in fact, I explicitly said that it is not difficult. I am perfectly capable of clicking aimlessly around  a screen and getting nowhere. I am perfectly capable of "heading south to find the magical hidden door", but you know what? South is a big place. I could run right pass that door without ever seeing it, and then I'd have to spend hours backtracking, checking every square inch of the area and making no progress.

But why the **** would I want to? That **** is not fun. I have other stuff I could be doing, and if your game isn't fun, I'm not going to play it. Games are supposed to be entertaining, and being stuck in one area for hours and hours because I can't find the thing I'm meant to be looking for is not entertaining.

Real complexity would be if Bioware started putting in more dungeon puzzles, or required the player to translate codes, or answer riddles, or making a more involved combat system. Something that requires players to actually use their brains. Removing map markers would not facilitate that.

We'll just have to agree to disagreee.

For $60 I don't want a 15 minute Fade experience or lazy, boring jaunt in the Deep Roads. I want Depth.

I don't want instant gratification. There is satisfaction I get when completing every area of the game.

Taking map markers away won't make games deeper either.

[The Hierophant]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

FF8 has a very involved stat-level system (albeit, one that is easily exploited). You don't have to like it, but just because it works differently doesn't mean it isn't there. Junctioning Guardian Forces to a party member is functionally identical to "equipping" them with gear. The differences are so superficial as to be meaningless. They may use different words, but the process is the same.

The fact that the stories are very linear is a separate issue.

I disagree. Junctioning best magic to every stat didn't take any thought - in fact it limited you because you couldn't use that magic and not weaken your character.

The itemization was horrible, you pretty much had one weapon, which you upgrades throughout the game. There were no talent trees or skills etc. To me JRPGs are basically movies where you have a small level of participation.

Don't forget that you need to min max the GF abilities like Vit/Str-up just to get decent stats.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:17 .

[Plaintiff]

wsandista wrote...
So a voiced PC, combat speed, removal of tier systems, art style, removal of origins, and removal of non-combat skills are not differences?

Not significant or meaningful ones, no. They're very superficial.

Non-comabt skills didn't actually "go away", for starters. Lockpicking and trap disarming still exist. There are still special "persuasion" options in certain circumstances that depend on Hawke's personality. Hawke's personality types are a kind of stat. Obviously there is some sort of calculation going on behind the scenes to determine whether he's got more "points" in "Sarcastic" or "Diplomatic" or "Aggressive". Would it make you feel better if they were represented numerically on the screen?

I assume by "tier systems" you mean levelling up skills? Well, that wasn't very "complex" in Origins either. In fact, it was less complex because you could only prgoress along straight lines. DA2 at least offers branching paths.

Origins give you like, an extra half hour of stuff, which is kind of neat, but again, that doesn't make the game more complex. All the Origins serve the same function: to give your character a backstory, which RPGs already do, unless they give you amnesia I guess. Hawke has an origin too.

Art style... well, it should go without saying that that is completely superficial. You might as well say that dyeing my hair or getting my face painted fundamentally changes who I am. Or maybe you mean that you can't take DA2 as "seriously", which is a problem I've never understood. Serious things don't stop being serious just because you present them in an animation as opposed to a live-action tv show.

[Tommyspa]

wsandista wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

As long as they continue removing the tedium out of games I'll be happy. Spending a lot of time in menus throughout a game is a real unnecessary thing. Believe it or not, I do not need numbers to tell me if I am winning in an RPG.

Would you be happy with the complete removal of attributes, equipment, skills, or any gameplay mechanic that differentiates PCs?

Yes remove all of it. But only because you can't stop doing the slippery slope tactic.

It is a slippery slope. You remove something because a group finds it tedious, then you could remove everything some find tedious.

Or now bear with me, instead of removing it you replace it with something that is not passive or stat based. Such as attributes are now exclusively tied to class benefits through skills and abilities and equipment.

Modifié par Tommyspa, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:36 .

[Cultist]

Let's see:
C&C: Tiberium Twilight - extremely simplified compared to C&C3 - one of the greatest commercial disasters to time.
Civilization 5 - extremely simplified compared to Civilization 4 - failure and decline of the series.
Heroes of Might & Magic 6 - extremely simplified compared to 3 and 5 - failure and oblivion.
And finally...Dragon Age 2 - extremely simplified compared to DA: origins - failure, to the point when even developers acnowledged it.
Seems like "appealing to wider audiences" by simplifying leads just to the opposite results. Atrracted minority can't compensate the decline of core playerbase, dissatisfied by dumbing down the series.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
The fact that DA2 sold poorly proves nothing, except that audiences are stupid.

That's so stupid I'm tempted to use it as a sig.

I won't. But still.

That's just ****ing hilarious.

[Cultist]

Plaintiff wrote...
The fact that DA2 sold poorly proves nothing, except that audiences are stupid.

That's just priceless...

[Gibb_Shepard]

Plaintiff wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Yes they are getting simpler. Maybe they'll completely remove attributes, abilities,equipment, and levels in the next game. I think those things might be a little too "tedious" for some people.

None of those things are actually needed for an RPG, anyway, so it wouldn't be a huge loss.

Maybe having any choices should be scrapped too. They aren't actually needed either. Better yet why not just completely turn DA into a movie? Gameplay isn't actually needed to tell a story, so it wouldn't be a huge loss

If I didn't know better, I'd swear this was a joke, but I know how you love to slide down the slippery slope fallacy with your strawmen.

There other ways to roleplay. Attributes, abilities and equipment are not inherently required. Maybe if they scrapped the ancient mechanics that you and so many others insist are "needed", people might actually be forced to get creative with their games for a change.

Attributes and abilities are not needed? I would really love to hear your alternative to abilities, the mechanic every combat system i've ever encountered has used.

This should be good.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:00 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

hero 2 wrote...

Androme wrote...
So what were you trying to say then?

Below is a depiction of the arrow of time:

>>>                                    >

As time progresses, so does the evolution of video games. RPGs are a genre of video game.

It is my assessment that in some areas, DA2 evolved the genre too much. It is only subsequently, in hindsight, that we can suggest that people, on the whole, want to have to (or "to be able to", depending on your perspective) change their companion's armour around. 

In other areas DA2 really pushed the action forward, making action-hero characters perform heroic physical moves befitting of their status.

So what you're saying is that DA2 is too ahead of it's time? Insinuating that every RPG will eventually land at a point where armour customization is gone, and the action is upped? 

lol

[Cirram55]

Why's everyone b.itching anyone out? Geez it's a forum not a pit. Get over yourselves.

Plaintiff wrote...
Not significant or meaningful ones, no. They're very superficial.

You know, things are not superficial just because you say so.

Compare Hawke's origin with the warden's.
- Human noble: you have a personal issue with Howe, who slaughtered your family and destroyed your home.
- Dwarf noble: Bhelen accusing you of your brother murder.
- Circle mage: you get to feel the situation inside the Circle much more than a Dalish, for example. You can observe how things fare since before the disaster with Uldred, additional knowledge useful for DAII's and possibly DAIII's themes, too.
- City elf: the Arl's son punched you in the face and kidnapped your fiancée. Now you hate humans more than ever.
- Dalish elf: you get to know how much of an ass Duncan is, so sure that your best friend/lifelong love is dead that he doesn't even try to look for him only to find Tamlen ghoulified in your camp, something you never experience in other origins.

- Hawke: you run away from a life that as a player you never actually played and had no chance to see and then -BANG!- one of your siblings you don't even care for dies randomly chosen after you class.
Ten minutes after you started playing to boot. Such depth.

And guess what? Art style is a significant change. There are interviews with lead artist Shane Hawco you can easily read. Basically the new art direction changed some lore, partially defined Hawke's personality (and not only iconic Hawke's) and had important influence in the story.
Things aren't as secluded as you'd see them at first.

Modifié par Cirram55, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:59 .

[Cultist]

hero 2 wrote...
It is my assessment that in some areas, DA2 evolved the genre too much. It is only subsequently, in hindsight, that we can suggest that people, on the whole, want to have to (or "to be able to", depending on your perspective) change their companion's armour around. 

In other areas DA2 really pushed the action forward, making action-hero characters perform heroic physical moves befitting of their status.

I think that the change in style of the UI from old to ultra-modern was a step too much for a lot of genre fans. Ye olde mappe with ripped edges and bent over corners was replaced by a super-clean, beautiful but strange stylistic representation of Kirkwall. 

Combine all of the progressive elements and you have a game that fans of the old high fantasy world of DA might not be quite as immersed in.

Some things are obviously progressive and should stay, others have proven quite unpopular and might be rolled back or re-imagined a second time.

Too bad BioWare can't tell their investors that people will like their "evolved" game in the future so all income will be in the future as well.
Also, too bad the most commercially successful games and franchizes are the ones that avoid radical changes and stick with proven gameplay and mechanics.
And the most spectacular fiascos came from "let's evolve and progress this game with our brilliant ideas" approach.

[hero 2]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

So what you're saying is that DA2 is too ahead of it's time? Insinuating that every RPG will eventually land at a point where armour customization is gone, and the action is upped? 

lol

Close, but no. I'm suggesting that it was tried. According to feedback (but a large part of feedback is revenue) the idea didn't work and so evolutionarily, armour customisation returns. I HOPE that the action will remain, and I hope that the negative feedback that DA2 provided as a whole doesn't tar this feature specifically.

[coles4971]

Plaintiff wrote...

The fact that DA2 sold poorly proves nothing, except that audiences are stupid.

LOL.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Plaintiff wrote...

You say "complex". I say "tedious".

Origins had mapmarkers too. Its quests (save for the very few involving genuine puzzles) were not any more difficult or mentally taxing than the ones in DA2, they were just longer overall.

Removing mapmarkers wouldn't make things more "complex" anyway, for that matter. Wandering around aimlessly, relying on vague instructions, hoping to hit a goal you can't see is not a difficult task, it is just an exceedingly boring one. I get plenty of tedium in my real life, thanks, I'd rather my games felt as little like work as possible.

Agreed. Mapmarkers wouldn't make anything more complex. However at the same time I don't think all quests should have them. If you're asked to go and find something within someone's house, you shouldn't have a marker pointing you to the object. Meanwhile finding a certain place that has been lost for hundreds of years should actually be a challange to find and shouldn't have a quest marker pointing you into the direction.

If I recall, Dragon Age: Origins had some quests where the quest markers didn't make things too obvious.

What the quote in the OP refers to however is the party management which is something that most people want back. I know some people found it a bore but I liked giving my party my own personal look and at the same time I was improving their statistics and resistances. Meanwhile I could make a mage an arcane warrior and give him a two handed sword. I could level a rogue up so that he/she could use two swords in each hand and I could give a bow to a warrior.

So if we're speaking customization, Dragon Age 2 was much more simpler whereas Dragon Age: Origins offered more depth. There's a reason why I played through Origins three times as a warrior and through DA2 only once as each class.

[hero 2]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Agreed. Mapmarkers wouldn't make anything more complex. However at the same time I don't think all quests should have them. If you're asked to go and find something within someone's house, you shouldn't have a marker pointing you to the object. Meanwhile finding a certain place that has been lost for hundreds of years should actually be a challange to find and shouldn't have a quest marker pointing you into the direction.

This makes sense.

Elton John is dead wrote... 
What the quote in the OP refers to however is the party management which is something that most people want back.

I am also interested in what we may have lost through time and whether any of it might be worth taking another look at.. ...for example, should lockpicking be as simple as just having a certain level of skill on a rogue, or is it more interesting if it's a minigame, perhaps easier if you have a level of skill, or, if you want to simplify it, only attemptable at a certain skill level?

Modifié par hero 2, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:46 .