Nizaris1 wrote...
4 people? It is because the game give you 4 people, you can solo the game if you want, is that realistic?
Depends really. Proper fighting techniques could allow you to take on multiple swordsmen. And I recall it being stated somewhere -- maybe a codex, maybe a forum posting, I dunno -- that one Warden can fight at least 20 Darkspawn.
Might be hyperbole, but still.
And while in our world it might not be realistic, in
Thedas it is. Four people cleared out the Tower of Darkspawn. That's lore, because the game made it a point to tell you that only you, Alistair, and your two other allies could clear out the Tower.
They were Alistair's words.
First who condemn who to death? It is happen to be the Warden refuse to help the village, it is not condemn them to death.There is no indication they all will die the last attack, they may survive, they might not survive..
So you leave them there with the mindset of "They'll be fine", when you repeatedly hear that their numbers have been substantially dwindling to the point where they don't think they will survive this next assault?
Yea, you're not making any tactical decisions. You're just being a coward.
By abandoning the village, you decrease your own odds of survival. Storming the castle and finding out that the entire village's denizens -- save for Teagan -- were turned into corpses means that you're basically fighting more then what you would've.
If you had helped them, you would've fought 60 corpses with 25 people (illustratively speaking). By abandoning them and returning, you would fight 70 corpses with 4 people (illustratively speaking, again).
And you're trying to tell me that the better choice is abandoning them, simply because you've got a problem with how they act?
You're not just a coward by doing such a thing, you're a petty coward.
Part of your reasoning in the OP was that Murdock isn't all that grateful for your assistance. He'll state something about you being a Mage and a woman and you take that as a sign that he doesn't want your help.
Far as I can recall, he'll apologize for his remarks. I certainly know that he'll say he won't turn aside your help if you're offering it, because he doesn't want to seem like an ingrate.
Even so, having a problem with their attitude is not grounds for leaving them to fight on their own. To help them fight off the corpses is a morale booster. If they can get two Grey Wardens helping them, along with an apostate Mage, a Mabari, a Qunari warrior, a skilled bard, and potentially any of the following: a Golem, a Spirit Healer Mage that would heal their wounds as they fight, a Dwarven warrior, or an Antivan Crow, then their morale would be boosted.
Oh and as a note, if you have Shale then you have the equivalent of a dozen Dwarves in battle. This is what the game tells us each Golem is worth in terms of manpower.
You
are condemning them to death. They don't think they'll survive without you, and they're hardly equipped to stave off a horde of corpses.
Fact: The corpses come down from the hill at first. Do you really think that Ser Perth, his knights, Dwyn, and Berwick could keep them all up there -- assuming Dwyn, Berwick, and Dwyn's thugs were even there? I doubt it, even with the barrels of oil.
Eventually, some of the corpses would go down the hill and then the militia would be fighting a battle on two fronts once the ones from the lake came by.
That's bad.
With you there, you can take down the corpses on the hill in sufficient quantity so that, when the ones from the lake come down, Ser Perth and his men can at least hold off any others on the hill.
Never mind that the corpses have little to no armor, whereas you do. That automatically grants you an advantage over them. The Darkspawn during a Blight are more cunning then people think and are armored to boot. The corpses are both mindless and unarmored. The only thing they have on their side are numbers.
Nizaris1 wrote...
In anyway the game allow Ban Teagan to live because the plot demand him to live
You're still using metagame knowledge to justify your argument. That's exactly what you erroneously thought I was doing and then told me not to do.
Your argument is pretty weak right now.
The game FORCED you to go to the Landsmeet, it is a part of the story while actually you don't need to at all. If you already have your army, you don't need to involve in Ferelden politic. But because of the story writer forcing you to gain support from Arl Eamon (or Loghain) your argument count, while actually you don't need them.
The Warden can move his/her army freely without Loghain army (or Eamon) by right. The Warden may avoid confrontation with Loghain and move away his/her army from Loghain, only used for the Blight.
And you can't gather an army without solving the problems of the Dwarves, Mages, or the Elves. It's not an instantaneous "LOL I've got teh armiez!" like you're making it out to be.
You'll clear out a Tower of Abominations which are
more powerful then walking corpses, spend weeks in the Deep Roads fighting Darkspawn, Deepstalkers, and Golems on some almost suicidal venture for a Paragon, and you'll fight Werewolves to get a cure for the Elves....
...but you won't stay one night to fight against a few corpses, of which you may have faced in the past?
Given the track record you can accumulate -- and again,
prior to Lothering you've beaten plenty to make you confident at beating some corpses with a village on your side -- you shouldn't even be worrying that you'll die, because you've killed
far bigger threats.
And you can say "But the game forced me to!" all you want. That's irrelevant.
Nizaris1 wrote...
relevent, their mission takes priority.
No, what happened in DAII's Act II climax is irrelevant. They stuck to their mission because there wasn't a Blight. Your mission was to gain the support of Arl Eamon. Considering neither you nor Teagan knew if he was even alive at this point, your best option was indeed to save the village.
Leaving the village to die possibly -- as far as the Warden knew -- condemns Eamon, Teagan, and his family to death.
They don't die, sure. But again, that's metagame knowledge and is not applicable to the argument.
Your mission was to get Eamon's support. A drunken monkey could see that Eamon would be far more likely to give you his support if you helped save his village, even if you felt it was risky to do so.
He may still give you support even if the village is all dead, but again
that's metagaming knowledge. It's not applicable.
The mindset of people and politicians is what matters. To that end, Eamon might see your actions as analogous to Loghain's if not worse.
What would you do if you left the village to fight the battle on its own, only to find out that neither Eamon or Teagan would support you because of what you did? Would you throw a hissyfit because you were thinking of yourself? Part of your argument is "I don't want to risk my fellow fighters".
Yet you fail to realize that Teagan's reasoning for hiding the information on the tunnel passage -- which wouldn't help you develop any new strategy -- was for the same reason. He didn't want to risk the villagers' lives by telling you about the tunnel.
Hell, what would you do if by condemning the village to death Eamon, Connor, Isolde, Teagan, and the entire village were killed? Were you still making the right choice?
Nizaris1 wrote...
1. you know about walking corpses, you don't know what caused it
2. Morrigan only told what might be, not what exactly it is
3. Teagan only tell you about the corpses, not the way into the castle in which might open new solution to think off and new option
4. yeah, we have some with what little armor, bow and arrow...that is if Owen agree to help...they don't have it all because Owen don't care anything...
5. militia? Militias are not soldiers, they are just town guard in rank, not fit for a battle, yeah they can fight but not as soldiers. Militia are peasants and farmers with swords or spear
6. fix what? fix nothing, the village don't change and as it is, no fort, no moat, no nothing, you just inspire people to fight and nothing else.(If you watched 13th Warrior, the first thing to do is to dig moats and erect forts/fences, the same if you watched Seven Samurai)
7. yeah...use barrel of oil assuming it will harm the undead and boost morale...that is not condition of winning if you know art of war (i do study Sun Tzu)
8. their attitude which bring harm to them, the Warden is not responsible for it. They can survive even without the Warden help if they are NOT SELFISH and ARROGANT
1) You can learn a few possible scenarios. Morrigan will state that demons are possessing the dead. You can find out that some of the Arlessa's servants and maids suspected she was up to something. Owen will even state that he thinks she might've been a blood mage. All that alone allows you to develop a few theories, which is a whole sight better then going into the situation blind.
2) It still goes to finding out what it might be. It's a clue, and like any clue it helps an investigation.
3) No it wouldn't. All it would do is lead to a massacre.
4) You're right! Owen doesn't care about anyone! How dare he worry about his daughter! How dare he let his emotions get the better of him! It's not like people have done the same thing in our world! [/sarcasm].
As far as he knew, his daughter was dead. And that made him depressed. Emotions often override rational thinking. The Human Noble and Dalish Elf Wardens can have the same line of thought. And he gives them armor that is sufficient to wear in battle, fixes their weapons (he is the town blacksmith, and apparently does a good job even when drunk), and gives them swords to boot.
He doesn't care about himself. He cares about his daughter, and it's that love he has for his daughter that made him depressed upon finding out she may have died. All he wanted from Murdock was a guarantee that, dead or alive, he'd have his daughter back. That's all. Murdock said he'd do his best, but people often say that yet don't hold up to it nearly as much.
5) First, I never said they were soldiers. Of course they're not soldiers. But they're the most experienced fighters you've got against the corpses, barring the knights themselves. They've fought them a few times prior, so they know how they fight. Second, they're well armed if you can get Owen on their side. Better armed then the corpses.
6) You expect them to be able to dig a moat in a few hours? The hell would a moat do? They wouldn't be able to dig one and fill it up to actually be useful in that span of time. Never mind that the corpses may have come to the lakeside area by walking underwater, so a moat wouldn't do much good. And they did fortify their postion. Not as well as I would've, were it me in that position, but they were hardly fighting with no fortifications present at all.
7) Morale is a powerful thing. It can lead men in desperate situations to fight with a resolve that ends up winning them the battle. And I'm sure that in all the history of Thedas, if walking corpses were immune to being harmed by fire then someone would've said so. I'm sure your Mage companions would've said so. Plus, you can upgrade their arms and armor to have them be a decent fighting force, and recruit someone whose fought Darkspawn his whole life -- and thus knows how to fight monsters.
Sure tactically what happens is a bit wanting -- I personally would've had some archers on the rooftops to launch volleys of arrows, and fortified the area in front of the Chantry a bit more. Along with some things that gameplay unfortunately prevents -- but it's hardly a hopeless situation if you actually help them.
8) No they can't. Even if you give them Owen's smithing skills, the barrels of oil, Dwyn's experience, up their morale, and recruit Lloyd and Berwick then they still end up dying. Even if you do all that -- which ends up making them work together -- they'll all die.
Nizaris1 wrote...
He who makes calculations win - Sun Tzu
Yes, I've read Sun Tzu. Well, part of The Art of War anyway. It's hard to find it online. But the Warden can learn enough about his enemies -- the corpses -- to know what he's facing. The Warden can also increase the chances of survival a fair deal.
Hell, the Warden may also have weapons imbued with properties that deal extra damage to corpses. And doesn't Bodahn sell a rune that has a decent shot of paralysis? Oh, and Morrigan knows paralyze right off the bat. And she can imbue your weapons with fire.
I mean, there's plenty of ways where you can actually make calculations on the battle and win. Those fortifications that the village made sets up a funnel. If you can make the best use of them, you effectively nullify the numbers of the zombies and can take them on one at a time.
Faerunner wrote...
Your Grey Wardens can supposedly eventually defeat a giant, cunning, intelligent dragon that's directing the darkspawn horde and that will be able to sense you when you eventually get close enough to try to fight it, but you can't take out a small army of undead with Ser Perth's knights and Murdock's village defense?
Indeed. Garahel defeated the Archdemon of the 4th Blight in single combat. Not only does that take balls, but that kinda shows that if you're a Grey Warden you can do some pretty amazing things against some pretty impossible odds. Compared to Garahel's Archdemon duel, facing a horde of walking corpses with a few Knights and a village militia is a cakewalk.
Of course, Garahel is the model of Elven perfection
.
Though is it ever elaborated on if he was Dalish or a City Elf?
Faerunner wrote...
If you're going to use the meta-gaming argument of "well, we learn later" when arguing for storming the castle, then the exact same meta-gaming argument can be made for saving the village. You know that your character is going to win anyway, so why play the "my character didn't know at the time" role-playing card?
This person is very selective in just what he/she applies to his/her arguments. We can't use metagaming knowledge to justify our arguments, but he/she can apparently.
Ah hypocrisy.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:15 .
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