I may be wrong (and please forgive my english, i am not a native speaker) but i am under the impression that there may be a reason behind the OP which may not be accurately reflected in its title and thus not entirely adequately answered by the following thread : somewhat like "After some replay, i realized that Bann Teagan (and maybe Arl Eamon too BTW) was quite the frustrating character to be given quest by and i wanted to vent out my irritation about him."
If it'd be the case, i'd happen to agree with the OP, even if i think that regarding GW goals it seems more sensible to help the villagers, as it has been pointed out and well argumented already.
Hoping that i am not about to wander to far away from the discussion I would say that there is indeed a "Teagan and Eamon are frustrating quest-givers" thing in DA:O, which can make one player (such as me) slightly resentful of both Redcliffe defense and the Landsmeet call preparations story-lines.
Those two are certainly not the only ones who seek the warden help for their own personal goals, selfish or not : This is what quest-givers do usually, they may even put the offense as far as to hide some precious information to the very person who is about to determine their fate, and then they shall come with shallow apologies and baubles as reward, only to trick the warden again the next time their own personal perspective (again, selfish or not) will demand it.
You act on their suggestions, they however seldom act on yours : quest-givers are funny like this, and CRPG are frequently designed like that. It is bound to make you feel "forced by the script" at some point and after some replay, when you have already followed the more obvious pathes and are eagerly looking for new ones.
Think about the two dwarven lords or Zathrian the dalish keeper, they are all as secretive and more manipulative than Bann Teagan. All those people are highly irritating, but if you don't come along with them you won't get an army at all.
What makes Bann Teagan perhaps more irritating than Zathrian or Prince Belhen? I think it is because you can retaliate on Zathrian or mock and/or betray Prince Belhen or Lord Harrowmont : you can shape their fate as you see fit without missing anything important to your mission. Eventually you can leave them behind in their respective dwellings and forget them once you've obtained through them the support of their people.
These aren't options with Bann Teagan. You can not fully retaliate or "vent out" against him in-game, his sheepish face is to be suffered until the end.
I think that make undersandable you wanted to "vent out" about him out-game.
You will have actually to suffer the both polite but inflexible Teagan and Eamon until the Landsmeet affair is done.
They will trick you into defending their stinking village, use you to seek some lost relic of unproven existence in hopes it could cure their clan leader (even if it could mean loosing your time and yourself on a goose chase), and to put finally on the throne of Ferelden their chosen heir, as unworthy and unwilling of it as he is.
They will also repeatidly ask for your blessings upon each decision they have already made without you , in a mockery of friendly respect, but they won't hear any your proposal that may seriously differ from theirs (too bad, for ex., if you wanted to free Jowan, or if you think that it is time the Fereldans should be taught to put more trust in their own institutions and skills rather than into some primitive bloodright).
What good reason, did you ask, have we to save Redcliffe village at all, especially if we find abhorrent those smug human representatives of the anobled fereldan fighter caste (apart from witty GW motives)?
Patience! you have to bid your time until the Landsmeet, where you'll switch side with Teyrn Loghain and let the last degenerated drop of Calenhad blood spill under the executionner's sword (drowning in its fall the vain ambitions of those Gerrin lobbyists.) On the same line i advise you to bargain with the demon in Connor and let it dormant in him. If you play a mage, no doubt you will end in charge of the Circle of Magi and thus you will be in position to force the rite of tranquillity upon the boy when his time shall come, or you may let him escape and therefore be chased by the templars, showing Arl Eamon if he still clings to life what the fate of your friend Jowan truly meant...
They thought they could use you to do their bidding and they shall pay!
This is your reason : Vengeance! It is a meal best served iced, and best served to the unwary! You need them Gerrins to trust you, if you want to enact a proper one upon them...
Is Redcliff really worth saving?
Débuté par
Guest_Nizaris1_*
, juil. 01 2012 04:19
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#27
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 09:29
gandanlin
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Yes, I've read Sun Tzu. Well, part of The Art of War anyway. It's hard to find it online. .
Try here:
http://www.sacred-te.../cfu/artwar.txt
Modifié par gandanlin, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:30 .
#28
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 09:40
gandanlin
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I thought Redcliffe was a cool battle, myself.
On the one hand it was a sort of tip of the hat to pre-existing video game zombie lore. Zombies are always good.
On the other hand, it brought the characters to a place where potential allies might be found. But complications arise: there are zombies. Again, zombies are always good.
Zombies -- it terms of combat training -- basically help to get the warrior at top form. The way of the warrior almost always leads to zombies.
/drollery
On the one hand it was a sort of tip of the hat to pre-existing video game zombie lore. Zombies are always good.
On the other hand, it brought the characters to a place where potential allies might be found. But complications arise: there are zombies. Again, zombies are always good.
Zombies -- it terms of combat training -- basically help to get the warrior at top form. The way of the warrior almost always leads to zombies.
/drollery
#29
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 10:00
Fiacre
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Eh, I dunno. Not even Eamon is irritating enough for me to let it out on Connor; it's not the poor kid's fault that his daddy keeps trying to have me make Alistair King. I'll just continue siding with Anora and let her execute Alistair whenever my character doesn't want to stop her (which is most of the time...) and sometimes marry her. And Jowan was an **** who lied to me and tried to use me and then had the nerve to complain that I am being selfish, so I don't really care what happens to him (and will murderknife him for good measure when my mage feels particularly angry).
Teagan though... I wish he'd be as awesome as he was in that first Denerim cutscene and succeed Eamon as Arl instead of making me go on a wild goose chase for some myth, but I like him. I can't really hold the Redcliffe defence against him (and you can always abandon the village and traumatize the poor sod if you feel vengeful), and my characters usually like him, too, while their opinion of Eamon gets lower and lower after the guy wakes up.
And I don't think Redcliffe could have defended itself. You've got a handful of knights, Teagan, and the militia. And Dwyn, who is being a complete moron by locking himself up. (Really? Did he just assume the undead would disappear once all the others are dead?) The cliff ground could very well be too hard to dig and even so, I doubt that would have really stopped the Zombies (and the Undead have the higher ground -- that's bad for the defenders, isn't it?), the militia people are understandably terrified -- even more so since they're losing -- so their drinking is neither that surprising nor can I condemn them for it, and they have built some stuff. We don't know if any of them there is really a great strategist either.
And while I agree that Murdock can be a jerk and Dwyn is an idiot and Loyd is just... ugh, and an idiot, I don't really want to let people like Kaitlyn, Bevin or those people in the Chantry die just because they happen to live in the same village as a bunch of jerks. It's not even much of a suicide mission even if you look at it in character, especially if Redcliffe isn't your first main quest. It's a bunch of corpses, that's less than you face on the other treaty quests. The search for Branka was actually seen as a suicide mission in game...
I am going to murderknife Owen one day though, no matter how little sense it makes. One might be able to justify his behaviour, but he really, *really* gets on my nerves :/ More than even Eamon.
Teagan though... I wish he'd be as awesome as he was in that first Denerim cutscene and succeed Eamon as Arl instead of making me go on a wild goose chase for some myth, but I like him. I can't really hold the Redcliffe defence against him (and you can always abandon the village and traumatize the poor sod if you feel vengeful), and my characters usually like him, too, while their opinion of Eamon gets lower and lower after the guy wakes up.
And I don't think Redcliffe could have defended itself. You've got a handful of knights, Teagan, and the militia. And Dwyn, who is being a complete moron by locking himself up. (Really? Did he just assume the undead would disappear once all the others are dead?) The cliff ground could very well be too hard to dig and even so, I doubt that would have really stopped the Zombies (and the Undead have the higher ground -- that's bad for the defenders, isn't it?), the militia people are understandably terrified -- even more so since they're losing -- so their drinking is neither that surprising nor can I condemn them for it, and they have built some stuff. We don't know if any of them there is really a great strategist either.
And while I agree that Murdock can be a jerk and Dwyn is an idiot and Loyd is just... ugh, and an idiot, I don't really want to let people like Kaitlyn, Bevin or those people in the Chantry die just because they happen to live in the same village as a bunch of jerks. It's not even much of a suicide mission even if you look at it in character, especially if Redcliffe isn't your first main quest. It's a bunch of corpses, that's less than you face on the other treaty quests. The search for Branka was actually seen as a suicide mission in game...
I am going to murderknife Owen one day though, no matter how little sense it makes. One might be able to justify his behaviour, but he really, *really* gets on my nerves :/ More than even Eamon.
#30
Posté 04 juillet 2012 - 10:18
Hayllee
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What about Bevin and Kaitlyn?
DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN.
DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN.
#31
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 05 juillet 2012 - 09:34
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I whole hearted agree with Dintonta!, Thanks, that is what i want to say actually
for others comments, (spoiler) if we choose to abandon Redcliff then walk toward world map exit, Tomas will chase us and have his sad face pleading for help...i have a soft heart...but when returned to Bann Teagan he will make an annoying remark...even we have agree to help the village out of being soft hearted
At this point (Tomas pleading) it is the villager themselves pleading the Warden to help, not the politicians , businessmen or religious authority or anyone who have interests...and so my Warden Mage help the village
for others comments, (spoiler) if we choose to abandon Redcliff then walk toward world map exit, Tomas will chase us and have his sad face pleading for help...i have a soft heart...but when returned to Bann Teagan he will make an annoying remark...even we have agree to help the village out of being soft hearted
At this point (Tomas pleading) it is the villager themselves pleading the Warden to help, not the politicians , businessmen or religious authority or anyone who have interests...and so my Warden Mage help the village
Modifié par Nizaris1, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .
#32
Posté 06 juillet 2012 - 07:20
TEWR
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gandanlin wrote...
Yes, I've read Sun Tzu. Well, part of The Art of War anyway. It's hard to find it online. .
Try here:
http://www.sacred-te.../cfu/artwar.txt
Thanks man!
#33
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 06:09
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I'm re-playing Redcliffe with a new playthrough, and my protagonist actually asked Teagan why he didn't just evacuate the village. He flat out says that the last organized evacuation attempt resulted in an immediate attack, and they learned that any villager's individual attempt to sneak out on their own results in being picked off outside of town, even during the day.
So the Warden can learn that undead really aren't weakened or "deactivated" by sunlight, they just attack during the night because... well, whatever's controlling the attacks wants it that way. I think the villagers surmised (correctly) that whatever was controlling the walking corpses (Demon Connor) wanted them to stay trapped and helpless, wanted to pick them off at night to increase their terror and anxiety, wanted to Since whatever controls the attacks can see the village
Perhaps another reason Teagan didn't want to tell the Warden about the entrance to the castle was because he feared that entering the castle would trigger another attack. This is not an entirely unreasonable fear. If whatever controlled the walking corpses knew what was going on enough to have them kill any villagers that tried to escape, then the same creature would probably also direct them to attack anyone that tries to get into the castle.
"But wait," you might be thinking, "My Warden went through the secret entrence and got in just fine."
Yes, the Warden gets through just fine, but only after either wiping out the undead army (defending the village) or after the village itself is wiped out (abandoning the village), and thus only after Connor has eased up enough that Isolde is able to come down asking for help and Teagan is able to go in to provide a distraction. Either way, neither Connor or Connor's corpse army is monitering the village when the Warden sneaks in, which we can't say the same for beforehand.
For all of the reasons mentioned, I think Teagan's reason for keeping it secret are... well, understandable.
It turns out that I was mistaken before. If you're Dalish and ask Duncan about the Grey Wardens, apparently he flat out says that the Dalish Warden Garahel defeated the Archdemon in the last Blight. So, it's official that Garahel was in fact a Dalish elf.
So the Warden can learn that undead really aren't weakened or "deactivated" by sunlight, they just attack during the night because... well, whatever's controlling the attacks wants it that way. I think the villagers surmised (correctly) that whatever was controlling the walking corpses (Demon Connor) wanted them to stay trapped and helpless, wanted to pick them off at night to increase their terror and anxiety, wanted to Since whatever controls the attacks can see the village
Perhaps another reason Teagan didn't want to tell the Warden about the entrance to the castle was because he feared that entering the castle would trigger another attack. This is not an entirely unreasonable fear. If whatever controlled the walking corpses knew what was going on enough to have them kill any villagers that tried to escape, then the same creature would probably also direct them to attack anyone that tries to get into the castle.
"But wait," you might be thinking, "My Warden went through the secret entrence and got in just fine."
Yes, the Warden gets through just fine, but only after either wiping out the undead army (defending the village) or after the village itself is wiped out (abandoning the village), and thus only after Connor has eased up enough that Isolde is able to come down asking for help and Teagan is able to go in to provide a distraction. Either way, neither Connor or Connor's corpse army is monitering the village when the Warden sneaks in, which we can't say the same for beforehand.
For all of the reasons mentioned, I think Teagan's reason for keeping it secret are... well, understandable.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Of course, Garahel is the model of Elven perfection.
Though is it ever elaborated on if he was Dalish or a City Elf?
It turns out that I was mistaken before. If you're Dalish and ask Duncan about the Grey Wardens, apparently he flat out says that the Dalish Warden Garahel defeated the Archdemon in the last Blight. So, it's official that Garahel was in fact a Dalish elf.
#34
Posté 12 juillet 2012 - 01:35
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@Dintonta: I can totally understand why you found it frustrating that Teagan asks for your advice about what should be done with Jowan, and then ignores you if you ask for his release.
Personally, though, I don't really hold that against Teagan, because as I see it, the Warden doesn't really have the option to ask for Jowan's release in a persuasive way that would realistically convince him. Given the circumstances, I would actually find it difficult to believe that he would let the man who poisoned his brother simply walk away without a very persuasive reason to do so – even if Jowan did save his nephew.
If I were in Teagan's position, I know that I would at the very least wait for my brother's input before making that decision – if Eamon recovered and found out that Teagan simply released the man who poisoned him without a very compelling reason, he would probably feel betrayed – and understandably so.
I'll admit that at first, my reaction was "WTF, Teagan – why ask for my input if your mind is already made up?!" However, the way the scene was written makes more sense to me if I keep in mind that the writers originally intended for the player to be able to recruit Jowan as a Warden, but then scrapped that idea. So, the way I interpret that scene, Teagan would be willing to listen to alternative suggestions for dealing with Jowan if the Warden offered him a persuasive reason to do so (such as needing his help against the Blight) – he only insists on keeping Jowan in the dungeon because the Warden can't offer him a compelling reason to do otherwise.
All that being said, I totally agree that not being able to have Jowan released was frustrating, and I wish that the PC could convince either Teagan or Eamon to let him join the Wardens against the Blight, the way the Revered Mother in Lothering can be convinced to release Sten.
I know that some people also find it frustrating that he doesn't reveal the way into the castle sooner, but personally, I can't imagine my Wardens holding that against him for very long, because when the Warden does enter the castle, it becomes clear that – as others have pointed out on this thread – he or she wouldn't actually have gained anything by entering the castle sooner anyway.
Also, as others have pointed out, it's understandable that Teagan doesn't reveal the secret entrance to the castle sooner – he has an obligation to the villagers, and he doesn't want to risk the Warden rushing off to the castle instead of helping him to defend the village. Not only that, but the hidden entrance is a family secret that concerns the defense of the castle – as I see it, it's not something he's really obligated to tell the Warden until it becomes absolutely necessary.
If you still feel differently, that's completely fine, but I hope that explains why I don't dislike Teagan the way some players do.
Personally, though, I don't really hold that against Teagan, because as I see it, the Warden doesn't really have the option to ask for Jowan's release in a persuasive way that would realistically convince him. Given the circumstances, I would actually find it difficult to believe that he would let the man who poisoned his brother simply walk away without a very persuasive reason to do so – even if Jowan did save his nephew.
If I were in Teagan's position, I know that I would at the very least wait for my brother's input before making that decision – if Eamon recovered and found out that Teagan simply released the man who poisoned him without a very compelling reason, he would probably feel betrayed – and understandably so.
I'll admit that at first, my reaction was "WTF, Teagan – why ask for my input if your mind is already made up?!" However, the way the scene was written makes more sense to me if I keep in mind that the writers originally intended for the player to be able to recruit Jowan as a Warden, but then scrapped that idea. So, the way I interpret that scene, Teagan would be willing to listen to alternative suggestions for dealing with Jowan if the Warden offered him a persuasive reason to do so (such as needing his help against the Blight) – he only insists on keeping Jowan in the dungeon because the Warden can't offer him a compelling reason to do otherwise.
All that being said, I totally agree that not being able to have Jowan released was frustrating, and I wish that the PC could convince either Teagan or Eamon to let him join the Wardens against the Blight, the way the Revered Mother in Lothering can be convinced to release Sten.
I know that some people also find it frustrating that he doesn't reveal the way into the castle sooner, but personally, I can't imagine my Wardens holding that against him for very long, because when the Warden does enter the castle, it becomes clear that – as others have pointed out on this thread – he or she wouldn't actually have gained anything by entering the castle sooner anyway.
Also, as others have pointed out, it's understandable that Teagan doesn't reveal the secret entrance to the castle sooner – he has an obligation to the villagers, and he doesn't want to risk the Warden rushing off to the castle instead of helping him to defend the village. Not only that, but the hidden entrance is a family secret that concerns the defense of the castle – as I see it, it's not something he's really obligated to tell the Warden until it becomes absolutely necessary.
If you still feel differently, that's completely fine, but I hope that explains why I don't dislike Teagan the way some players do.
Modifié par jillabender, 15 juillet 2012 - 07:55 .
#35
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 12 juillet 2012 - 01:42
Guest_greengoron89_*
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I thought you wanted an army? There are a lot of able-bodied men and women in Redcliffe to help you fight the Blight, and you're just throwing them to the wolves?
Bad attitudes or not, at least try to look at the bigger picture - the Blight is the greatest threat, and the more people you can rally against it, the better.
Bad attitudes or not, at least try to look at the bigger picture - the Blight is the greatest threat, and the more people you can rally against it, the better.
Modifié par greengoron89, 12 juillet 2012 - 01:43 .
#36
Posté 13 juillet 2012 - 12:15
Dintonta
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jillabender wrote...
...However, the way the scene was written makes more sense to me if I keep in mind that the writers originally intended for the player to be able to recruit Jowan as a Warden, but then scrapped that idea...
I entirely agree to that!
![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
I would bet that the maimed "Jowan's Fate" convo is the hidden daddy of the whole "Redcliffe grudge" we, Teagan-haters:devil:, hold so bitterly.
Now, let's look for its mummy : We can find a good indication in the OP's opening sentence :
Nizaris1 wrote...
i just replay DA:O as a mage and now at Recliff...
@Nizaris1 : I would be really, really interrested to know how you felt about Teagan at your first PT, in both occasions : When he revealed the existence of the secret passage and when he discussed the future of Jowan.
For my own, at my first PT, I didn't even notice he said he actually hid something from me, or he was trying to apologize for something. I was just listening at the useful stuff ("Windmill, check - Signet ring, check - Underground passage, check - Castle...")
Also, when I got the "Jowan's Fate" convo with Teagan the first time, I remember I was baffled, but not by anything Teagan said : I was simply baffled by the lack of some obvious options I would have expected for my warden to say (à la Sten, or like the female blood-mage in the Circle Tower.)
It required a few PT before I became unwittingly used to that hard convo restriction and stopped to care about it.
It is certainly a side-effect of repetitions to make you accept anything which is weird as something normal (mmh... looking at that mirror...)
From this moment, I think, I began to dislike Teagan simply because I made him accountable for the lack of proper options in the warden lines of the convo. And that put him in a rather awkward situation he should never have been :
jillabender wrote...
Personally, though, I don't really hold that against Teagan, because as I
see it, the Warden doesn't really have the option to ask for Jowan's
release in a persuasive way that would realistically convince him. Given
the circumstances, I would actually find it difficult to believe that
he would let the man who poisoned his brother simply walk away without a
very persuasive reason to do so – even if Jowan did save his nephew.
It is true that the warden's reasons to free Jowan, such as they are left in the convo, are slim... at best.
I have never doubted if I was in Teagan shoes, they wouldn't convince me.
My point was rather : How did he dare asking to be persuaded? After all what he holds dear (Eamon excepted) has been saved by my warden while he was so ignorant and so helpless, shouldn't at least some honor or self-awareness command him to defer to her without questions?
Teagan never discussed any of her choice about the way she wanted to confront the demon, and so much more was at stake then, than Jowan's guilt.
It would be tempting to think he was so accommodating only because he was in need... But it would go nowhere interresting...
I prefer to keep a bit of meta-game thinking at this point, as you wisely pointed out, if it can prevent me to make Bann Teagan accountable for issues related to the hurry in which Bioware's writers probably were when they shortened Jowan's story...
(I know, meta-game thinking is bad, bad, bad... but trying to RP through incomplete conversations is bound to be sad, sad, sad...:innocent:)
The funny thing though, if we want to go to the bottom of Bann Teagan's Mystery ("How a man who had everything to be loved by everyone ended a scapegoat for a bunch of angry players?"), is that he is not only made accountable for Jowan's story-line issue, but for Eamon's choices as well, and for the very abrupt way the quest of Sacred Ashes is given by Isolde (since nobody would have seriously acted upon her begging anyway, poor Teagan had to back her... and he paid for that too...)
Also, to top it all, after a few PT, he seems to endure some sort of nasty retroactive addition of the three previous unfair causes of dislike which is bound to give players an exagerated bias against but his one and only true sin (the lie about the secret passage) while this last was obviously meant to be a very little and easily forgivable one. Oh the Irony!
Last but not least, since nothing on Thedas could have planned its golden child would be execrated by some (do you remember whose happy face, among the soldiers, of all the known characters is the first to witness the AD's explosion? Do you think they would have let any ambiguous villain in that place?) Bioware gave actually very few acceptable opportunity to evacuate bad feelings targeted at him. (Which, speaking of bad feelings, is never healthy.)
There is one, yet, which is priceless : At the windmill, I just love when he gives my warden a very stalwart last advice (something like "None of us matter, go for Eamon!")
I can distinctly hear my blood-mage answer him using her very most soft and chilly voice : "Of course you are expendable..."
And then he comes with a really sad, sad, little voice : "At least... that's... something..." (Aawwrr... he is so cute!!)
@Fiacre : thank you for reminding me the first Landsmeet cutscene : That's true he is awesome. I did have forgotten because after a few PT , I usually press the esc key during the movies to go quicker to the violent parts...
And no, I never let out on Connor... I just played the demon's bargain to unlock the bloodmage spec. then I came back to a previous save. I just developped the horror above for our evil enjoyement...
I am very curious about what you find to Owain? Honest truth, he is probably one of the last I would have imagined irritating...:innocent:
@jillabender : Thank you very much for your lighthearted RP suggestions:happy: and that insight about the trunkated "Jowan's fate" conversation! (I surmise that many other characters in the game had their fate shortened that way...)
Modifié par Dintonta, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:16 .
#37
Posté 13 juillet 2012 - 12:45
Fiacre
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My HNs (and I play HNs a lot... 4 out of 7 characters :| well, 8 if you count my unfinished and deleted Dalish. Poor guy suffered from first playthrough syndrome) are very focused on duty to the family and always feel the need to point out that if he lets the militia die, no one will be able to get into the castle even if they had been willing to and therefore sentences his daughter to death should she still live. So they he's all sorts of pathetic and don't like him for that reason. Stop drinking, help save the villager and maybe give them a chance to save Valenna >:[
My jerkass mage decided to not show his heart of gold that moment and told Owen he has better things to do than make silly promises and then investigated the trap door. Bye bye Owen :|
Re: Teagan, I can't really hold the Jowan thing against him. As I said, after playing the mage origin I don't feel as sympathetic as before. One mage killed him, the other casually told him that he sold him out to Irving, was somewhere between vaguely amused and vaguely annoyed with Jowan getting all angry and shouting at him and just doesn't give enough of a **** for what happens to him, the Guerrins can sort that out themselves (especially since he actually sacrificed Isolde for once). My current HN will likely not care either. And might also kill Owen again because he has little patience for that stuff. I suppose Teagan's and Eamon's attitude there is annoying, though, especially if you actually want to save Jowan.
My jerkass mage decided to not show his heart of gold that moment and told Owen he has better things to do than make silly promises and then investigated the trap door. Bye bye Owen :|
Re: Teagan, I can't really hold the Jowan thing against him. As I said, after playing the mage origin I don't feel as sympathetic as before. One mage killed him, the other casually told him that he sold him out to Irving, was somewhere between vaguely amused and vaguely annoyed with Jowan getting all angry and shouting at him and just doesn't give enough of a **** for what happens to him, the Guerrins can sort that out themselves (especially since he actually sacrificed Isolde for once). My current HN will likely not care either. And might also kill Owen again because he has little patience for that stuff. I suppose Teagan's and Eamon's attitude there is annoying, though, especially if you actually want to save Jowan.
#38
Posté 13 juillet 2012 - 02:37
Dintonta
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Fiacre wrote...
My HNs (and I play HNs a lot... 4 out of 7 characters :| well, 8 if you count my unfinished and deleted Dalish. Poor guy suffered from first playthrough syndrome) are very focused on duty to the family and always feel the need to point out that if he lets the militia die, no one will be able to get into the castle even if they had been willing to and therefore sentences his daughter to death should she still live. So they he's all sorts of pathetic and don't like him for that reason. Stop drinking, help save the villager and maybe give them a chance to save Valenna >:[
That's funny, I always saw him as a child with an old man's face. I kinda liked his voice ("Oh? who's there?", very childish too.)
All that promise thing is incredible : He's aware it could very well worth nothing, that his daughter could be dead and the warden a liar. I think he just needed to be listened at five minutes and actually wanted to do the reparations from the beginning. But since Murdock isn't really the receptive one, it went wrong with him.
Sure, Owain isn't really rational... One could even say not reliable. But I wouldn't say so.
I just think he need a support, be it a bottle (the worst), his daughter, or a friendly warden.
And yes, he is irresponsible...
Fiacre wrote...
My jerkass mage decided to not show his heart of gold that moment and told Owen he has better things to do than make silly promises and then investigated the trap door. Bye bye Owen :|
You mean that if you go to his stock before befriending him he attacks?
Fiacre wrote...
Re: Teagan, I can't really hold the Jowan thing against him. As I said, after playing the mage origin I don't feel as sympathetic as before. One mage killed him, the other casually told him that he sold him out to Irving, was somewhere between vaguely amused and vaguely annoyed with Jowan getting all angry and shouting at him and just doesn't give enough of a **** for what happens to him, the Guerrins can sort that out themselves (especially since he actually sacrificed Isolde for once). My current HN will likely not care either. And might also kill Owen again because he has little patience for that stuff. I suppose Teagan's and Eamon's attitude there is annoying, though, especially if you actually want to save Jowan.
Yes, Jowan is probably the companion I found the most difficult to accept in DA:O, and I know only one voice which grates me more than his : Niall's voice. I always imagined that my mages took pity of him, or that they were old "study pal", or simply that Jowan being a little older than my Surannas he helped them when they arrived in the Tower, and that they had fond memory of their childhood. There is a good insight of their friendly relations in the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest, when Jowan's ghost just says : "Enjoyed the riddle game?" --Those two must have passed hours together in the Library, deciphering strange tomes full of... riddles...
But as far as I find difficult to like him I could only "sold" him to Irving once (and just out of curiosity). The very instant Irving asked my first mage to do so, she despised him. I think that's the reason why my mages usually could forgive to Jowan his lies. In such a context, one may tempted to lie even to its best friend. To my mages his lies made him a victim more than a liar.
I think that's what made me like the libertarian-styled mage. My mages usually defend Jowan for what he represents, not only for the old friend he is.
The whole Teagan thing is not at all about loving Jowan against Teagan, it's about giving Jowan a meaningful end (If you don't want him dead, of course), and it's well... About Teagan also...
And I think you were right, it would be unfair to make Teagan accountable for Eamon's choices even if he serves him a bit too blindly to my taste.
Modifié par Dintonta, 13 juillet 2012 - 02:40 .
#39
Posté 13 juillet 2012 - 05:41
PizzaThe Hutt
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I don't like their attitude very much either but considering the political advantage it brings later it's worth saving.
#40
Posté 13 juillet 2012 - 10:21
TEWR
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Dintonta wrote...
I was simply baffled by the lack of some obvious options I would have expected for my warden to say (à la Sten, or like the female blood-mage in the Circle Tower.)
I take it you wanted to recruit him? If so, that was originally going to be an option, but sadly David Gaider abandoned it because IIRC he called Jowan "too whiny".
EDIT: Wait, that was only part of it. The other and more critical part was that they "didn't have the room to add another character onto the pile"
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .
#41
Posté 14 juillet 2012 - 04:00
Dintonta
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I take it you wanted to recruit him? If so, that was originally going to be an option, but sadly David Gaider abandoned it because IIRC he called Jowan "too whiny".
Poor Jowan! So irritating than not only his mother, his mentor, his love, his employer, his best friend, but also his own creator let him down! (That's not nice Mr Gaider, not nice at all...)
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
EDIT: Wait, that was only part of it. The other and more critical part was that they "didn't have the room to add another character onto the pile"
Thank you for the tip!
I still wonder though why asking him to fight the Blight the way it was offered in the conversation with the female blood-mage (she doesn't become a companion) isn't given as an option with him?
Modifié par Dintonta, 14 juillet 2012 - 04:00 .
