933 réponses à ce sujet

[Tealjaker94]

Miezul_Carpatin wrote...

Yes, but he didn't know if the Avengers would be able do shut down the portal. The safe decision would have been to nuke the city.

At least he had a plan. And he was right. You were wrong and everyone died because of it. 20/20 hindsight.

[riesenwiesel]

RonnyB wrote...

I wonder how many people would still take destroy if Humans were on the chopping block instead of the Geth/EDI and there was no breath scene.

In theory everybody would still take destroy because I keep hearing "sacrifices have to be made for the galaxy" and "I didn't do it so my Shep would survive."

I play Mass Effect 3 as a RPG so I have to decide somehow from Shepard's point of view:

So here we go:

Control:
Can I really know what it would be like to control all reapers to the end of all times? Can I imagine that to be even possible? A "race" created from nearly countless different species? Honestly? No, I cannot. 

Synthesis:
It is impossible for Shepard to imagine what a post-synthesis world would look/be like. So, a shot in the dark that will change all existing and future beings? Decide that here and now alone? Really? No.

I cannot pick what I cannot imagine, that's just mad.
So the only two outcomes that (my) Shepard can possibly imagine and choose are:

Destroy:
Sacrifice "some" races and individuals to allow 99% to live on.

Refuse:
This is a little more complicated than destroy. I saw what the Protheans did. Javik is here and alive. So we fight a hopeless guerilla war against the reapers. 99% will die, but we have the chance to pass enough knowledge and maybe even individuals to the next cycle so that they will have a realistic chance. In best case do the Javik thing with for example a handful of Asari (or maybe Krogans) will allow them to completely repoputate in the next cycle. But maybe even that will not be enough to stop the reapers, so this pick is still very risky.



Yes, think I would stay with destroy.
But refuse seems somehow reasonable if your belief in the current cycle (ability to "trick" the reapers) AND your belief in the next cycle (ability to "solve" the reaper problem) is strong enough.

Modifié par riesenwiesel, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:21 .

[AxStapleton]

Alushadow wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

Just to dispel the common notion that ALL destroyers hate or don't care about the Geth or EDI, My Shep did. Very much so. He brokered peace between the Geth and Quarians. He encouraged Joker to try a relationship with EDI. He was a true Paragon. He was just incredibly weary of the two other options. My Shep was just talking to the Illusive Man about how high the risks of Control were, "Are you willing to bet Humanity's existence on it?" We've seen what one entity in control of that level of power has done. My Shepard, for all the universe's imperfections, loved diversity. Forcing that level of change, taking away that diversity (even if it was only on the level of Organics and Synthetics) was abhorrent to him, images of the Reapers and the Husks of all the species come to mind. In his mind, it was the Catalyst's solution. The Reaper's solution. This left him with Destroy. He could erase the Reapers from existence, the Catalyst would be no more. Life would be free. Diversity eventually preserved. But at a terrible cost. The Geth and EDI. But he had to take that decision. He would have taken it if it cost any one of the other races instead of the Synthetics, including Humanity. He considered them just as alive. But it didn't make him feel  any better. However, he didn't buy the crap that it was inevitable for  Synthetics to wipe out all other life. His past experiences taught him  this. Synthetics could be rebuilt. But he knew there would be no  bringing EDI or the Geth back. He hopes that they'll be remembered. That when the time comes for new Synthetic intelligences to be built, that  the lessons learned in this war would not be forgotten. That the same  mistakes wouldn't be repeated. There might not be much left. But there is hope.

Not all destroyers are heartless murderers.
 
P.S.Nor am I saying that people who chose anything else are any worse than me. They're all valid options with a high risk/cost. This is purely my reasoning behind me choosing the Destroy option. Its just a case of what cost you are willing to take to do what you percieve must be done.

by accepting to play and end mass effect you are a mass murder
by taking 1 of the 3 options you agree with a mass murderer and pretty much help him get his way
so you are just as good as he is
to agree to the genocide of gazillion souls by accepting his will
you are a mass murderer
and by refusing to accept is aw so flawed logic
you condemn the galaxy all the people you know and love to be submitted to complete genocide
making you yes you guessed it correct A mass murder yet again

my signature says it all
no matter what you do its over before it even started
no matter how you spin it you are not going to win

Don't want to sound inflammatory, but I'm sorry you didn't get your sunshine and rainbows ending. And this is from someone who hated the original endings for being far too bleak.
If you want to complain about the logic that is used in the endings, then by all means continue.

Modifié par AxStapleton, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:22 .

[Vexille]

Hell even the GETH will probably be pissed about you choosing refuse... at least in destroy their death saves everyone else... when you refuse they die for nothing.

The more I think about it... Arent the geth pretty much the only race that would be OK with dying to save everyone else?

As machines they are able to look at it objectively... they will realize that they die in both a destroy AND a refuse scenario... If they are going to die I think they would opt for their deaths to have meaning.

So I'd argue that even the geth themselves would want destroy over refuse (As machines they would be able to see that a conventional victory was not possible)

[Father_Jerusalem]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Its the same thing, their going to end up dead....

It's NOT the same thing. In my scenario there is one key difference - each person has the ability to choose for themselves, not have that choice foisted upon them by one person who the VAST majority of them have never met, may not even know exists, don't necessarily trust, and would never EVER allow to represent them under these, or any, circumstances.

The ability to make your own choice > having that choice thrust upon you with literally no recourse by someone else.

If Shepard chooses Refuse, they all die. Full. Stop. There is NOTHING they can do about it.

First thing synthesis makes no sense but I'll try to reason with unreason. Your DNA/Framework is changed and you hate that, but you don't want to kill yourselve. Therefore is a choice that is thrusted upon you and you can't do anythhing about it. The point of them killing themselves is absurd, I explained a lot of people would hate to co-exist with the reapers, and i mean a lot. So what, you want a mass suicide you find that better? your logic is so absurd im going to stop arguing it until you provide a decent point.

Okay then. Don't pick Synthesis. I'm sorry, was I in here pushing that you HAVE to pick Synthesis? No? Then I'm not quite sure where you're pulling that idea from.

I've said it before that I prefer Control. In fact, if you're looking for where I rank each ending, here you go:

1. Control
2. Destroy
3. Synthesis
Unranked becuase it's completely idiotic: Refuse

My logic is utterly sound. Your argument is that I am trying to convince you to pick Synthesis when nothing of the sort has ever, or will ever occur. It is a failure of understanding on your part, not a failure of logic on my part.

[Rip504]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
Shepard is responsible, and also, I said a some not you.

Shepard is justified by every agrument that supports the Geth. The Geth are a living species,with the right to kill millions/billions in "self-defense" for that right to live. Many countless people have justified the Geth's actions this way. Shepard is defending all life in the galaxy in "self-defense" for the right to live. Shepard's choice is justified. Shepard/Geth are the victims of the Reapers plans. Shepards actions are justified by "self-defense" for the right to live. The Reapers are mistaken and killing at will.  Without the Reapers harvesting all life,there would be no reason to make a choice,hence the Reapers are responsible for the death of the Geth,while Shepard's destroy choice is justified,by the very argument that support the Geth.

:innocent:

Modifié par Rip504, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:24 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Vexille wrote...

Hell even the GETH will probably be pissed about you choosing refuse... at least in destroy their death saves everyone else... when you refuse they die for nothing.

The more I think about it... Arent the geth pretty much the only race that would be OK with dying to save everyone else?

As machines they are able to look at it objectively... they will realize that they die in both a destroy AND a refuse scenario... If they are going to die I think they would opt for their deaths to have meaning.

So I'd argue that even the geth themselves would want destroy over refuse (As machines they would be able to see that a conventional victory was not possible)

Just because their ok with it doesn't make it right, and they do say they do not want to be terminated.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

[quote]Rip504 wrote...

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

[/quote]Shepard is responsible, and also, I said a some not you.
[/quote]

Shepard is justified by every agrument that supports the Geth. The Geth are a living species,with the right to kill millions/billions in "self-defense" for that right to live. Many countless people have justified the Geth's actions this way. Shepard is defending all life in the galaxy in "self-defense" for the right to live. Shepard's choice is justified. Shepard/Geth are the victims of the Reapers plans. Shepards actions are justified by "self-defense" for the right to live. The Reapers are mistaken and killing at will.  Without the Reapers harvesting all life,there would be no reason to make a choice,hence the Reapers are responsible for the death of the Geth,while Shepard's destroy choice is justified,by the very argument that support the Geth.

:innocent:
[/quote]Don't justify genocide by claiming it Self-defense, I can understand if you say its for sacrifice, but don't tell me it was the reapers fault. There are three other options to choose from, so no it wasn't only the reapers.

[Miezul_Carpatin]

Vexille wrote...

Hell even the GETH will probably be pissed about you choosing refuse... at least in destroy their death saves everyone else... when you refuse they die for nothing.

The more I think about it... Arent the geth pretty much the only race that would be OK with dying to save everyone else?

As machines they are able to look at it objectively... they will realize that they die in both a destroy AND a refuse scenario... If they are going to die I think they would opt for their deaths to have meaning.

So I'd argue that even the geth themselves would want destroy over refuse (As machines they would be able to see that a conventional victory was not possible)

Actually, if they knew synthesis was possible and that is would achieve peace I don't think they would agree to sacrifice themselves.

[wantedman dan]

No, OP, actually you're all heartless genocidal maniacs.

[Kaica]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Kaica wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Kaica wrote...

"I'm pretty sure for destroyers supporters the situation would chance if the Catalyst told them their favorite species had to die, also, at the time picking Destroy is a risk too, how do you know it won't destroy people with synthetic implants."

Well, I stated earlier that my choice wouldn't change no matter the race. Even if it was many races. All I need is someone to enjoy the result and make babies. It is up to everyone whether they believe me or not.

And I expected Shepard to die because of his implants (you can see it on the first page). And I wouldn't mind if it destroyed people with implants (oh god why does this sound like breasts) if there were some left to *look above*

Some, not all. But many people choose destroy just to either live or because they don't care about the Geth.

Or to destroy the Reapers and free not only our cycle,but any other race to come along in the future. At the small sacrifice of the current cycle's synthetic lifeforms. The Reapers deserve death,nothing else IMO. They have murdered countless civilizations. It is their time to pay for their crimes. The Geth is and will be their last crime ever. Shepard is not blamed or held accountable for the death of the Geth,no this course of action is set into motion by the actions of the Reapers,therefor the Reapers are responsible for the death of the Geth. Not Shepard.

I was willing to allow one sacrifice for the freedom of the entire galaxy and the future of all and everything.  I kill hostile Geth everyday in MP. Geth who have killed countless organics with little to NO remorse.(For over 300 years) The Geth have always felt their actions have been justified. So do others who agree or support them. Well Shepard and many living organics will also feel that my destroy choice is Justified. I destroyed the Reapers in "self-defense" so the death of the Geth is right and justified.



"The needs of the many,outweigh the needs of a few." Who Dat!

Shepard is responsible, and also, I said a some not you.

Was the last sentence directed to my comment?

No, but it can apply to you, I understand your reasons for choosing Destroy, but i said a lot of people who choose destroy do it for the sole purpose because shepard can live.

So basically you only have a problem with people who choose Destroy only to let their Sheps live? Not with the ones who choose it for the same reason that I do? That means you have a problem with selfish people who act on selfish purposes, and with that (I think) we can all (well, not all, never all...) agree.

It is not in a direct conflict with your very first comment on this thread, but it is very much specified I mean the direct argument for the whole thread, that destroy makes us genocidal monsters (pg1)

[AxStapleton]

wantedman dan wrote...

No, OP, actually you're all heartless genocidal maniacs.

Don't know if joking or trolling or being serious. But you chose Refusal? Fair enough, you have your reasons. I'm not here to tell you whether you are right or wrong. I was just saying why I chose what I did.

[Rip504]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
Don't justify genocide by claiming it Self-defense, I can understand if you say its for sacrifice, but don't tell me it was the reapers fault. There are three other options to choose from, so no it wasn't only the reapers.

No,Obviously by my statement Shepard plays a role in this. But as you said the Reapers are also responsible. Their actions are not justified. Shepard's actions are. I sacrificed and defended the galaxy from destruction for the right to live and be free. I Shepard acted in "self-defense" on behalf of the galaxy. So yes my choice is justifed through the same means as the Geth are. The Geth chose to kill billions is self-defense to live,then joined the Reapers in self-defense to live,but all of that is ok? Well then so is my destroy choice.!

Modifié par Rip504, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:32 .

[Vexille]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Hell even the GETH will probably be pissed about you choosing refuse... at least in destroy their death saves everyone else... when you refuse they die for nothing.

The more I think about it... Arent the geth pretty much the only race that would be OK with dying to save everyone else?

As machines they are able to look at it objectively... they will realize that they die in both a destroy AND a refuse scenario... If they are going to die I think they would opt for their deaths to have meaning.

So I'd argue that even the geth themselves would want destroy over refuse (As machines they would be able to see that a conventional victory was not possible)

Just because their ok with it doesn't make it right, and they do say they do not want to be terminated.

but they die in both scenarios, its not a matter of whether or not they die... its whether they die and save the galaxy (destroy) or they die for nothing (refusal).

I'm going to just stop here though, I just dont comprehend how you can say its better that everyone dies rather then having some die so the rest can live.

I dont see why the entire galaxy should die because shepard feels guilty about killing the geth (who are going to die ANYWAYS)

[wantedman dan]

AxStapleton wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

No, OP, actually you're all heartless genocidal maniacs.

Don't know if joking or trolling or being serious. But you chose Refusal? Fair enough, you have your reasons. I'm not here to tell you whether you are right or wrong. I was just saying why I chose what I did.

I'm being flippant, but the point still stands. To choose to destroy is to choose to commit genocide.

[Tealjaker94]

wantedman dan wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

No, OP, actually you're all heartless genocidal maniacs.

Don't know if joking or trolling or being serious. But you chose Refusal? Fair enough, you have your reasons. I'm not here to tell you whether you are right or wrong. I was just saying why I chose what I did.

I'm being flippant, but the point still stands. To choose to destroy is to choose to commit genocide.

And to choose refuse is to condemn us all to death. Good, good.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Kaica wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Kaica wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Kaica wrote...

"I'm pretty sure for destroyers supporters the situation would chance if the Catalyst told them their favorite species had to die, also, at the time picking Destroy is a risk too, how do you know it won't destroy people with synthetic implants."

Well, I stated earlier that my choice wouldn't change no matter the race. Even if it was many races. All I need is someone to enjoy the result and make babies. It is up to everyone whether they believe me or not.

And I expected Shepard to die because of his implants (you can see it on the first page). And I wouldn't mind if it destroyed people with implants (oh god why does this sound like breasts) if there were some left to *look above*

Some, not all. But many people choose destroy just to either live or because they don't care about the Geth.

Or to destroy the Reapers and free not only our cycle,but any other race to come along in the future. At the small sacrifice of the current cycle's synthetic lifeforms. The Reapers deserve death,nothing else IMO. They have murdered countless civilizations. It is their time to pay for their crimes. The Geth is and will be their last crime ever. Shepard is not blamed or held accountable for the death of the Geth,no this course of action is set into motion by the actions of the Reapers,therefor the Reapers are responsible for the death of the Geth. Not Shepard.

I was willing to allow one sacrifice for the freedom of the entire galaxy and the future of all and everything.  I kill hostile Geth everyday in MP. Geth who have killed countless organics with little to NO remorse.(For over 300 years) The Geth have always felt their actions have been justified. So do others who agree or support them. Well Shepard and many living organics will also feel that my destroy choice is Justified. I destroyed the Reapers in "self-defense" so the death of the Geth is right and justified.



"The needs of the many,outweigh the needs of a few." Who Dat!

Shepard is responsible, and also, I said a some not you.

Was the last sentence directed to my comment?

No, but it can apply to you, I understand your reasons for choosing Destroy, but i said a lot of people who choose destroy do it for the sole purpose because shepard can live.

So basically you only have a problem with people who choose Destroy only to let their Sheps live? Not with the ones who choose it for the same reason that I do? That means you have a problem with selfish people who act on selfish purposes, and with that (I think) we can all (well, not all, never all...) agree.

It is not in a direct conflict with your very first comment on this thread, but it is very much specified I mean the direct argument for the whole thread, that destroy makes us genocidal monsters (pg1)

I have a huge problem with people who choose destroy for selfish reasons, i respect people who choose it for the reason you do but i still think you guys commited wrongful genocide.

[wantedman dan]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

And to choose refuse is to condemn us all to death. Good, good.

So that means it's alright to commit war crimes, right?

[NM_Che56]

I am the butcher of Maytag!

[AxStapleton]

wantedman dan wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

No, OP, actually you're all heartless genocidal maniacs.

Don't know if joking or trolling or being serious. But you chose Refusal? Fair enough, you have your reasons. I'm not here to tell you whether you are right or wrong. I was just saying why I chose what I did.

I'm being flippant, but the point still stands. To choose to destroy is to choose to commit genocide.

To choose Refuse is to sacrifice everything  and everyone you know and love for your ideals which I think is actually noble but the people who died won't be there to tell you that.

[Tietj]

The geth were already dead in my playthrough (I didn't have a save from ME2 and couldn't broker a peace). So only EDI was sacrificed, and good riddance.

[Vexille]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Kaica wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Kaica wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Kaica wrote...

"I'm pretty sure for destroyers supporters the situation would chance if the Catalyst told them their favorite species had to die, also, at the time picking Destroy is a risk too, how do you know it won't destroy people with synthetic implants."

Well, I stated earlier that my choice wouldn't change no matter the race. Even if it was many races. All I need is someone to enjoy the result and make babies. It is up to everyone whether they believe me or not.

And I expected Shepard to die because of his implants (you can see it on the first page). And I wouldn't mind if it destroyed people with implants (oh god why does this sound like breasts) if there were some left to *look above*

Some, not all. But many people choose destroy just to either live or because they don't care about the Geth.

Or to destroy the Reapers and free not only our cycle,but any other race to come along in the future. At the small sacrifice of the current cycle's synthetic lifeforms. The Reapers deserve death,nothing else IMO. They have murdered countless civilizations. It is their time to pay for their crimes. The Geth is and will be their last crime ever. Shepard is not blamed or held accountable for the death of the Geth,no this course of action is set into motion by the actions of the Reapers,therefor the Reapers are responsible for the death of the Geth. Not Shepard.

I was willing to allow one sacrifice for the freedom of the entire galaxy and the future of all and everything.  I kill hostile Geth everyday in MP. Geth who have killed countless organics with little to NO remorse.(For over 300 years) The Geth have always felt their actions have been justified. So do others who agree or support them. Well Shepard and many living organics will also feel that my destroy choice is Justified. I destroyed the Reapers in "self-defense" so the death of the Geth is right and justified.



"The needs of the many,outweigh the needs of a few." Who Dat!

Shepard is responsible, and also, I said a some not you.

Was the last sentence directed to my comment?

No, but it can apply to you, I understand your reasons for choosing Destroy, but i said a lot of people who choose destroy do it for the sole purpose because shepard can live.

So basically you only have a problem with people who choose Destroy only to let their Sheps live? Not with the ones who choose it for the same reason that I do? That means you have a problem with selfish people who act on selfish purposes, and with that (I think) we can all (well, not all, never all...) agree.

It is not in a direct conflict with your very first comment on this thread, but it is very much specified I mean the direct argument for the whole thread, that destroy makes us genocidal monsters (pg1)

I have a huge problem with people who choose destroy for selfish reasons, i respect people who choose it for the reason you do but i still think you guys commited wrongful genocide.

opposed to the "Happy" genocide you inflicted on the galaxy?  I dont see how you can argue its "wrongful"
when your choice cause 100 times the death and destruction.

[wantedman dan]

AxStapleton wrote...

To choose Refuse is to sacrifice everything  and everyone you know and love for your ideals which I think is actually noble but the people who died won't be there to tell you that.

I won't let fear compromise who I am.

[flipyap343]

My reasons for destroy:

• The entire point of the game was to destroy the Reapers, whatever the cost. Both EDI and the Geth went in ready to give their "lives" to save the galaxy. The whole fleet did.
• The Illusive Man tried to control the Reapers, and Shepard spent the whole game telling him that control was impossible. It's not just the Illusive Man alone who tried this; the Prothean VI makes it clear that his cycle, and possibly others, had splinter groups who screwed the others over by trying to take control of the Reapers. What would make Shepard any different? Even if s/he could control them, s/he'd probably wind up reinstating the cycles anyway, as his/her humanity disappears over the years. 
• Synthesis is certainly the worst option as it basically accomplishes what the Reapers tried to achieve: forcing homogenization (or "order" as they like to call it) upon the galaxy. Javik himself said that this sort of thing destroyed his civilization as it left no room for change or improvement.
• Refusal kills everything, synthetics included.

Destroy wins by default.

[AxStapleton]

wantedman dan wrote...

AxStapleton wrote...

To choose Refuse is to sacrifice everything  and everyone you know and love for your ideals which I think is actually noble but the people who died won't be there to tell you that.

I won't let fear compromise who I am.

And I commend you for it.