933 réponses à ce sujet

[Father_Jerusalem]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I didn't commit genocide, I took my chances and failed, you on your own will commited genocide. I died free.

Yes you did. There are 3 different ways to stop the Reaper cycle. You chose to fight and die "free",rather then saving the entire galaxy and remaining "free". If we are taking the fact that the Catalyst states the Geth will die,then you have to accept the fact that the Catalyst told you,that you would fail otherwise. Hence you are willing  to sacrifice all life. You committed genocide on a level only capable by the Reapers. Great job. In destroy Shepard did not commit genocide,Shepard only set the events in motion. Which did end in the Genocide of the Geth. In refuse Shepard sets forth the events that will destroy all life. You chose not to stop the Reapers,when you had a chance to. Allowing the Reapers to harvest every civilization in our cycle,only to be defeated during the next cycle. So yes,one could hold Shepard acountable for the destruction of all life in our cycle.

You willingly decided to destroy the Geth, you commited Genocide.

You willingly decided to allow every other civilized being in existence to be killed. You committed more Genocide.

[Tealjaker94]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

CesarSan wrote...

The destroy option implies that the cycle will eventually begin again.

Yes, it does and so few people who chose destroy seem to get that. Their choice took lives AND changed NOTHING!

How does the cycle begin again without Reapers?

shhhh!!! get your common sense out of here!

Control, Synthesis, and refusal all stop the cycle.

Destroy, Synthesis do this cycle. Refusal does next cycle. Control allows the possibility of it resuming.

[B.Shep]

I didn't say it wasn't genocide. You said that MacArthur's sacrifice was different because he didn't do it because they were human. I'm not commiting genocide on the geth because they're synthetic but because the goddamn Crucible can't target only Reapers.
[2]

Still a better outcome than the abomination commited in Synthesis or turning the reapers in our shepherds in Control.

[Vexille]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

CesarSan wrote...

The destroy option implies that the cycle will eventually begin again.

Yes, it does and so few people who chose destroy seem to get that. Their choice took lives AND changed NOTHING!

How does the cycle begin again without Reapers?

shhhh!!! get your common sense out of here!

Control, Synthesis, and refusal all stop the cycle.

you do realize that the next cycle stops the reapers with the crucible right?

making your "refusal" pointless as the crucible is used anyways?

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I didn't commit genocide, I took my chances and failed, you on your own will commited genocide. I died free.

Yes you did. There are 3 different ways to stop the Reaper cycle. You chose to fight and die "free",rather then saving the entire galaxy and remaining "free". If we are taking the fact that the Catalyst states the Geth will die,then you have to accept the fact that the Catalyst told you,that you would fail otherwise. Hence you are willing  to sacrifice all life. You committed genocide on a level only capable by the Reapers. Great job. In destroy Shepard did not commit genocide,Shepard only set the events in motion. Which did end in the Genocide of the Geth. In refuse Shepard sets forth the events that will destroy all life. You chose not to stop the Reapers,when you had a chance to. Allowing the Reapers to harvest every civilization in our cycle,only to be defeated during the next cycle. So yes,one could hold Shepard acountable for the destruction of all life in our cycle.

You willingly decided to destroy the Geth, you commited Genocide.

You willingly decided to allow every other civilized being in existence to be killed. You committed more Genocide.

Do you know the definitiont of Genocide, I didn't willingly kill them, I took our chances and we failed, that does not make it genocide. You willingly shot a tube and knew it would kill the Geth, you commited Genocide.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

[quote]Father_Jerusalem wrote...

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

[quote]Rip504 wrote...

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I didn't commit genocide, I took my chances and failed, you on your own will commited genocide. I died free.
[/quote]
Yes you did. There are 3 different ways to stop the Reaper cycle. You chose to fight and die "free",rather then saving the entire galaxy and remaining "free". If we are taking the fact that the Catalyst states the Geth will die,then you have to accept the fact that the Catalyst told you,that you would fail otherwise. Hence you are willing  to sacrifice all life. You committed genocide on a level only capable by the Reapers. Great job. In destroy Shepard did not commit genocide,Shepard only set the events in motion. Which did end in the Genocide of the Geth. In refuse Shepard sets forth the events that will destroy all life. You chose not to stop the Reapers,when you had a chance to. Allowing the Reapers to harvest every civilization in our cycle,only to be defeated during the next cycle. So yes,one could hold Shepard acountable for the destruction of all life in our cycle.

[/quote]You willingly decided to destroy the Geth, you commited Genocide.
[/quote]

sorry double post.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:03 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Vexille wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

CesarSan wrote...

The destroy option implies that the cycle will eventually begin again.

Yes, it does and so few people who chose destroy seem to get that. Their choice took lives AND changed NOTHING!

How does the cycle begin again without Reapers?

shhhh!!! get your common sense out of here!

Control, Synthesis, and refusal all stop the cycle.

you do realize that the next cycle stops the reapers with the crucible right?

making your "refusal" pointless as the crucible is used anyways?

And they don't choose Destroy, so you can't use that against me.

[wantedman dan]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

He is sacrificng the Geth because the mission is to destroy the Reapers - the Crucible's indiscimination is not something that Shepard was planning for. He is choosing to finish the mission of destroying the Reapers. By choosing refusal, he is actively choosing to allow every civilized being in the galaxy die a terrible death.

So because it wasn't accounted for, it's totally okay, right? Ignorance is bliss, as the cliché goes.

The Reapers may be the gun that shoots trillions of beings in the face, but Shepard is the finger that pulled the trigger by refusing to end the war. He. Is. Responsible. It is HIS inaction that killed trillions of lives. Lives that would be alive had he simply chose to sacrifice the few for the many, either by allowing the Geth to die, or by sacrificing his own life for Control or Synthesis.

Heh. As I've said before, countless warlords, despots, etc that have been responsible for war crimes since the dawn of civilization are applauding your sentiment.

I point you to Mass Effect 1, Saren wondered aloud, "Is submission not preferable to extinction?" I suppose you've made your decision.

Calling the deaths of the Geth genocide and abhorrent, yet actively defending Shepard being responsible for the genocide of every other civilized race in the galaxy is fallacious.

The difference being Shepard isn't the direct catalyst of said war crimes. Try to keep up.

[riesenwiesel]

Vexille wrote...

you do realize that the next cycle stops the reapers with the crucible right?

making your "refusal" pointless as the crucible is used anyways?

Twitter facts ftw...

But I think I is still unknown how they use the crucible. Could make a huge difference.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Forbry wrote...

CesarSan wrote...

The destroy option implies that the cycle will eventually begin again.

Yes, it does and so few people who chose destroy seem to get that. Their choice took lives AND changed NOTHING!

How does the cycle begin again without Reapers?

shhhh!!! get your common sense out of here!

Control, Synthesis, and refusal all stop the cycle.

Destroy, Synthesis do this cycle. Refusal does next cycle. Control allows the possibility of it resuming.

The cycle of the Reapers harvesting still ends.

[wantedman dan]

Vexille wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I didn't commit genocide, I took my chances and failed, you on your own will commited genocide. I died free.

Yes you did. There are 3 different ways to stop the Reaper cycle. You chose to fight and die "free",rather then saving the entire galaxy and remaining "free". If we are taking the fact that the Catalyst states the Geth will die,then you have to accept the fact that the Catalyst told you,that you would fail otherwise. Hence you are willing  to sacrifice all life. You committed genocide on a level only capable by the Reapers. Great job. In destroy Shepard did not commit genocide,Shepard only set the events in motion. Which did end in the Genocide of the Geth. In refuse Shepard sets forth the events that will destroy all life. You chose not to stop the Reapers,when you had a chance to. Allowing the Reapers to harvest every civilization in our cycle,only to be defeated during the next cycle. So yes,one could hold Shepard acountable for the destruction of all life in our cycle.

You willingly decided to destroy the Geth, you commited Genocide.

thats very arguable, you were not purposely trying to destroy the geth, they were merely collateral damage

You destroyed them because of their class of life was that of a synthetic.

[Miezul_Carpatin]

riesenwiesel wrote...

Vexille wrote...

you do realize that the next cycle stops the reapers with the crucible right?

making your "refusal" pointless as the crucible is used anyways?

Twitter facts ftw...

But I think I is still unknown how they use the crucible. Could make a huge difference.

Can you post a link please?

[Rip504]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote....

You willingly decided to destroy the Geth, you commited Genocide.

You willing chose to do nothing. Your now responsible for the destruction of all life. You could have stopped the cycle and chose not to. Allowing the Reapers to continue their harvest. You allowed it. Shepard,now one of the Reapers greatest allies. Shepard could have stopped the Reapers,but chose to allow them to continue harvesting. With no guarantee that the Reapers would have ever been stopped. The Catalyst tells us the Geth will be killed in the destroy option,The Catalyst also tell us you will fail in the reject ending. You knew you would fail and all life would be destroyed with no guarantee of ever stopping the reapers. You still chose to do it.

I think it was nice of Bioware to throw the "rejects" a bone and tell you that the next cycle defeated the Reapers. Imagine if they would have not. Imagine if the Reapers would have kept on reaping for another Billion years,because you chose to not stop them. The loss of life after the crucible is on Shepard's hands,just as the oil of the Geth is on Shepard's hands.

I say refuse is easliy a worse option then destroy.

Modifié par Rip504, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:09 .

[IscrewTali]

Refuse = Your Shepard is indoctrinated. You will disagree with me on this, just as the Illusive man did. He was working for the Reapers, just as you are. Thinking you're doing what's best for the galaxy, eventually allowing the Reapers to harvest life once more. The only way to make sure that never happens again is the Destruction of the Reapers, no matter what.

Oh, and shooting the starchild doesnt kill him, its a hologram ffs! Just to clear some people's misconception.

[AxStapleton]

Can't we all just agree to disagree now. Everyone (and I mean everyone) is regurgitating the same arguments over and over again and we are convincing no one.

[wantedman dan]

Rip504 wrote...

You willing chose to do nothing. Your now responsible for the destruction of all life. You could have stopped the cycle and chose not to. Allowing the Reapers to continue their harvest. You allowed it. Shepard,now one of the Reapers greatest allies. Shepard could have stopped the Reapers,but chose to allow them to continue harvesting. With no guarantee that the Reapers would have ever been stopped.

I think it was nice of Bioware to throw the "rejects" a bone and tell you that the next cycle defeated the Reapers. Imagine if they would have not. Imagine if the Reapers would have kept on reaping for another Billion years,because you chose to not stop them. The loss of life after the crucible is on Shepard's hands,just as the oil of the Geth is on Shepard's hands.

I say refuse is easliy a worse option then destroy.

Your misinterpretation is delicious.

Choosing for life to self-determinate is not choosing to do nothing. 

[wantedman dan]

IscrewTali wrote...

Refuse = Your Shepard is indoctrinated. You will disagree with me on this, just as the Illusive man did. He was working for the Reapers, just as you are. Thinking you're doing what's best for the galaxy, eventually allowing the Reapers to harvest life once more. The only way to make sure that never happens again is the Destruction of the Reapers, no matter what.

Oh, and shooting the starchild doesnt kill him, its a hologram ffs! Just to clear some people's misconception.

"Indoctrination because I say so" is quite the brilliant argument you have there.

[Tealjaker94]

AxStapleton wrote...

Can't we all just agree to disagree now. Everyone (and I mean everyone) is regurgitating the same arguments over and over again and we are convincing no one.

I agree. I grow tired of repeating myself and shall withdraw from the argument. I regret nothing!

[Father_Jerusalem]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I didn't commit genocide, I took my chances and failed, you on your own will commited genocide. I died free.

Yes you did. There are 3 different ways to stop the Reaper cycle. You chose to fight and die "free",rather then saving the entire galaxy and remaining "free". If we are taking the fact that the Catalyst states the Geth will die,then you have to accept the fact that the Catalyst told you,that you would fail otherwise. Hence you are willing  to sacrifice all life. You committed genocide on a level only capable by the Reapers. Great job. In destroy Shepard did not commit genocide,Shepard only set the events in motion. Which did end in the Genocide of the Geth. In refuse Shepard sets forth the events that will destroy all life. You chose not to stop the Reapers,when you had a chance to. Allowing the Reapers to harvest every civilization in our cycle,only to be defeated during the next cycle. So yes,one could hold Shepard acountable for the destruction of all life in our cycle.

You willingly decided to destroy the Geth, you commited Genocide.

You willingly decided to allow every other civilized being in existence to be killed. You committed more Genocide.

Do you know the definitiont of Genocide, I didn't willingly kill them, I took our chances and we failed, that does not make it genocide. You willingly shot a tube and knew it would kill the Geth, you commited Genocide.

You absolutely did. You ABSOLUTELY did. You willingly shot Starchild in the face and knew that there was no hope for a conventional victory, that the Reapers would continue harvesting this cycle after demolishing the combined fleets at Earth, that BY turning down your one and only chance of victory, you were willingly condemning every civilized race to one fate: Death.

That. Is. Genocide. On a MASSIVE scale. That is INCREDIBLY, UNDENIABLY worse than sacrificing the Geth. You chose to allow every member of every advanced species to die. Congratulations. You're a "hero".

[Cant Planet]

wantedman dan wrote...

And it's the decision that is the key. Just as the decision not to act still makes Shepard culpable in Reject.

Don't you ever get tired of misinterpreting everyone else's motives and glorifying your own? I wouldn't mind so much if you weren't so persistently arrogant about it.

It would be nice if you would sufficiently understand the very concepts that you're arguing before arguing them.

I understand that you think taking no action and precipitating dozens of genocides because you don't want to be responsible for making a choice, and prefer to crow about your strong moral code, is philosophically superior and more ethically justifiable than making a choice and causing less death.

I understand that you seem to think you're the only person on these boards who has ever read a book or had a thought, and that you have magical insight into the unspoken motives of others.

I understand that the game was designed to have every ending be an uncomfortable compromise, and that you find this to be an unnecessary burden on whatever organ it is that moderates your sense of personal rage.

And, probably most importantly, I understand that it's possible to have a debate about it without being a condescending dick.

Modifié par Cant Planet, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:12 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote....

You willingly decided to destroy the Geth, you commited Genocide.

You willing chose to do nothing. Your now responsible for the destruction of all life. You could have stopped the cycle and chose not to. Allowing the Reapers to continue their harvest. You allowed it. Shepard,now one of the Reapers greatest allies. Shepard could have stopped the Reapers,but chose to allow them to continue harvesting. With no guarantee that the Reapers would have ever been stopped. The Catalyst tells us the Geth will be killed in the destroy option,The Catalyst also tell us you will fail in the reject ending. You knew you would fail and all life would be destroyed with no guarantee of ever stopping the reapers. You still chose to do it.

I think it was nice of Bioware to throw the "rejects" a bone and tell you that the next cycle defeated the Reapers. Imagine if they would have not. Imagine if the Reapers would have kept on reaping for another Billion years,because you chose to not stop them. The loss of life after the crucible is on Shepard's hands,just as the oil of the Geth is on Shepard's hands.

I say refuse is easliy a worse option then destroy.

No, we fought and loss, it is not genocide,

[Rip504]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote....

You willingly decided to destroy the Geth, you commited Genocide.

You willing chose to do nothing. Your now responsible for the destruction of all life. You could have stopped the cycle and chose not to. Allowing the Reapers to continue their harvest. You allowed it. Shepard,now one of the Reapers greatest allies. Shepard could have stopped the Reapers,but chose to allow them to continue harvesting. With no guarantee that the Reapers would have ever been stopped. The Catalyst tells us the Geth will be killed in the destroy option,The Catalyst also tell us you will fail in the reject ending. You knew you would fail and all life would be destroyed with no guarantee of ever stopping the reapers. You still chose to do it.

I think it was nice of Bioware to throw the "rejects" a bone and tell you that the next cycle defeated the Reapers. Imagine if they would have not. Imagine if the Reapers would have kept on reaping for another Billion years,because you chose to not stop them. The loss of life after the crucible is on Shepard's hands,just as the oil of the Geth is on Shepard's hands.

I say refuse is easliy a worse option then destroy.

No, we fought and loss, it is not genocide,

Where do I call it genocide? I hold you responsible for it,as you are. You knew you would fail,and chose to do so. You chose to fail,and watch all life die for the sake of being able to say NO. When destroy is a much lesser evil.

A casualty of war and the intent to wipe out an entire race,are two separte things.

Modifié par Rip504, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:19 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

wantedman dan wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

He is sacrificng the Geth because the mission is to destroy the Reapers - the Crucible's indiscimination is not something that Shepard was planning for. He is choosing to finish the mission of destroying the Reapers. By choosing refusal, he is actively choosing to allow every civilized being in the galaxy die a terrible death.

So because it wasn't accounted for, it's totally okay, right? Ignorance is bliss, as the cliché goes.

The Reapers may be the gun that shoots trillions of beings in the face, but Shepard is the finger that pulled the trigger by refusing to end the war. He. Is. Responsible. It is HIS inaction that killed trillions of lives. Lives that would be alive had he simply chose to sacrifice the few for the many, either by allowing the Geth to die, or by sacrificing his own life for Control or Synthesis.

Heh. As I've said before, countless warlords, despots, etc that have been responsible for war crimes since the dawn of civilization are applauding your sentiment.

I point you to Mass Effect 1, Saren wondered aloud, "Is submission not preferable to extinction?" I suppose you've made your decision.

Calling the deaths of the Geth genocide and abhorrent, yet actively defending Shepard being responsible for the genocide of every other civilized race in the galaxy is fallacious.

The difference being Shepard isn't the direct catalyst of said war crimes. Try to keep up.

Did I say it was okay? No? Thanks for, you know, reading. I said that sacrificing the few for the good of the many is PREFERABLE to the many being, you know, completely and utterly wiped out. Would it be better if the Geth didn't have to die? Absolutely. And that's why I prefer Control. 

Is submission not perferable to extinction? Yes it is. But you know what's even better than that? Winning. Which you are about to do until you take one final self-righteously moral stand and say "Nope. Better to let everything die." 

Shepard is absolutely ABSOLUTELY the direct catalyst of said war crimes. You are given three choices to end the war, to prevent ANY FURTHER loss of life. If you pick one of those endings, the Reapers will be unable to kill even one more person. Ever. You choose to say "Nope". You are completely, utterly, and solely responsible for all those deaths because you could have stopped them, and you said "no".

[wantedman dan]

Cant Planet wrote...

I understand that you think taking no action and precipitating dozens of genocides because you don't want to be responsible for making a choice, and prefer to crow about your strong moral code, is philosophically superior and more ethically justifiable than making a choice and causing less death.

Obviously not, because you minimize the impact of not choosing between war crimes.

I understand that you seem to think you're the only person on these boards who has ever read a book or had a thought, and that you have magical insight into the unspoken motives of others.

I understand that the game was designed to have every ending be an uncomfortable compromise, and that you find this to be an unnecessary burden on whatever organ it is that moderates your sense of personal rage.

And, probably most importantly, I understand that it's possible to have a debate about it without being a condescending dick.

This is adorable. Either you stay consistent with your supposed abhorrence of condescention and refuse to do such, or you willingly adopt hypocrisy and do to others that which you apparently hate.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote....

You willingly decided to destroy the Geth, you commited Genocide.

You willing chose to do nothing. Your now responsible for the destruction of all life. You could have stopped the cycle and chose not to. Allowing the Reapers to continue their harvest. You allowed it. Shepard,now one of the Reapers greatest allies. Shepard could have stopped the Reapers,but chose to allow them to continue harvesting. With no guarantee that the Reapers would have ever been stopped. The Catalyst tells us the Geth will be killed in the destroy option,The Catalyst also tell us you will fail in the reject ending. You knew you would fail and all life would be destroyed with no guarantee of ever stopping the reapers. You still chose to do it.

I think it was nice of Bioware to throw the "rejects" a bone and tell you that the next cycle defeated the Reapers. Imagine if they would have not. Imagine if the Reapers would have kept on reaping for another Billion years,because you chose to not stop them. The loss of life after the crucible is on Shepard's hands,just as the oil of the Geth is on Shepard's hands.

I say refuse is easliy a worse option then destroy.

No, we fought and loss, it is not genocide,

You fought and lost, KNOWING you would lose and KNOWING you had three options to prevent the loss of even one more life.

It is genocide.