933 réponses à ce sujet

[wantedman dan]

Lord Goose wrote...

First of all, Control isn't slavery. Reapers are not entirely sentient in their current state. They cannot choose to stop the harvest, for example. They're fire, and fire burns. Controlling the fire is not a slavery.
Destroy also have its justification. Geth and EDI are soldiers and they were prepared to die. This decision still falls into Renegade morality, but its morality nonetheless.
Synthesis have its own bright sides too.

Also, both decisions are not really what Catalyst wants.

And what if they were released from their current state?

[KotorEffect3]

Destroy is a perfectly valid option to pick, picking destroy doesn't mean you want to destroy the geth or edi. All it means is that they are unfortunate collateral damage. The last casualties in this terrible war but they are sacrifices that will be remembered. The only choice of the 4 that I do condemn is refuse.

[wantedman dan]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


Seems to me your denying evidence, he clearly explained why destroy is wrong and your response in to call him a troll.

I'm calling him a troll because he IS a troll.

I clearly explained why Destroy is preferable to Refuse, and his (and your) response is to say "nuh uh!"

He, and you, have no evidence other than sanctimony.

Wow. That's an impressive level of irony you have there.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I didn't know i was going to fail.

LMAO,then I didn't know the Geth would die. Since the Catalyst states both will happen.



*A casualty of war and the intent to wipe out an entire race,are two separate Issues.*

Geth are a casualty of war. Not a race wiped out for any specific reason,other then sharing similarities with the Reapers. An unintended side effect. I did not chose to create the Geth in this manner,I did not chose for the crucible to function in this manner. It was never my intent,but rather a casualty of war.

The catalyst saying that you will lose is no more different than if you and me were to play basketball and i were to tell you, your going to lose. Its not a fact, is the catalyst defending what he believes, When the refusal ending was available I had a very him EMS and I though we might have a chance of winning, we didn't, but At least i didn't commit a war crime and submit to the Catalyst tyrany. Also you willingly destroyed the Geth, there were other options but you decided to destroy them, its genocide don't try to justify it.

[IscrewTali]

Tell me if im wrong, but if Godchild is trying to manipulate you into choosing a wrong option, what makes you believe the Geth get destroyed on that specific choice? With that logic i would assume he's telling me this in hope that i would not want to sacrifice the Geth. By saying "i didnt know we would lose" you could also say "i didnt know the Geth would die".

[Khajiit Jzargo]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Destroy is a perfectly valid option to pick, picking destroy doesn't mean you want to destroy the geth or edi. All it means is that they are unfortunate collateral damage. The last casualties in this terrible war but they are sacrifices that will be remembered. The only choice of the 4 that I do condemn is refuse.

That is so wrong, whether you want to destroy them or not, if you choose to do it, its genocide. 

[wantedman dan]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Destroy is a perfectly valid option to pick, picking destroy doesn't mean you want to destroy the geth or edi. All it means is that they are unfortunate collateral damage. The last casualties in this terrible war but they are sacrifices that will be remembered. The only choice of the 4 that I do condemn is refuse.

That is so wrong, whether you want to destroy them or not, if you choose to do it, its genocide. 

This argument has circled back around to its beginning. Don't bother.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

IscrewTali wrote...

Tell me if im wrong, but if Godchild is trying to manipulate you into choosing a wrong option, what makes you believe the Geth get destroyed on that specific choice? With that logic i would assume he's telling me this in hope that i would not want to sacrifice the Geth. By saying "i didnt know we would lose" you could also say "i didnt know the Geth would die".

He specifically says "The crucible will not discrinimate, it will destroy all synthetics" stop acting obtuse.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I didn't know i was going to fail.

LMAO,then I didn't know the Geth would die. Since the Catalyst states both will happen.



*A casualty of war and the intent to wipe out an entire race,are two separate Issues.*

Geth are a casualty of war. Not a race wiped out for any specific reason,other then sharing similarities with the Reapers. An unintended side effect. I did not chose to create the Geth in this manner,I did not chose for the crucible to function in this manner. It was never my intent,but rather a casualty of war.

The catalyst saying that you will lose is no more different than if you and me were to play basketball and i were to tell you, your going to lose. Its not a fact, is the catalyst defending what he believes, When the refusal ending was available I had a very him EMS and I though we might have a chance of winning, we didn't, but At least i didn't commit a war crime and submit to the Catalyst tyrany. Also you willingly destroyed the Geth, there were other options but you decided to destroy them, its genocide don't try to justify it.

If you had a giant armada of Reapers on your basketball team, I would believe you if you told me I was going to lose.

[wantedman dan]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

If you had a giant armada of Reapers on your basketball team, I would believe you if you told me I was going to lose.

So we should all suffer because you believe what you do, right?

[Khajiit Jzargo]

wantedman dan wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Destroy is a perfectly valid option to pick, picking destroy doesn't mean you want to destroy the geth or edi. All it means is that they are unfortunate collateral damage. The last casualties in this terrible war but they are sacrifices that will be remembered. The only choice of the 4 that I do condemn is refuse.

That is so wrong, whether you want to destroy them or not, if you choose to do it, its genocide. 

This argument has circled back around to its beginning. Don't bother.

Yeah, I think I'm done. Arguing with them its just going to be one big circle, theres no point.

[IscrewTali]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Tell me if im wrong, but if Godchild is trying to manipulate you into choosing a wrong option, what makes you believe the Geth get destroyed on that specific choice? With that logic i would assume he's telling me this in hope that i would not want to sacrifice the Geth. By saying "i didnt know we would lose" you could also say "i didnt know the Geth would die".

He specifically says "The crucible will not discrinimate, it will destroy all synthetics" stop acting obtuse.

And what makes you believe him/it? You didnt believe anything else he said to you.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

wantedman dan wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

If you had a giant armada of Reapers on your basketball team, I would believe you if you told me I was going to lose.

So we should all suffer because you believe what you do, right?

Apparently, according to them.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:42 .

[wantedman dan]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Destroy is a perfectly valid option to pick, picking destroy doesn't mean you want to destroy the geth or edi. All it means is that they are unfortunate collateral damage. The last casualties in this terrible war but they are sacrifices that will be remembered. The only choice of the 4 that I do condemn is refuse.

That is so wrong, whether you want to destroy them or not, if you choose to do it, its genocide. 

This argument has circled back around to its beginning. Don't bother.

Yeah, I think I'm done. Arguing with them its just going to be one big circle, theres no point.

Especially when one fundamentally misunderstands the very constituting tenets of what they're arguing.

[alienatedflea]

AxStapleton wrote...

Just to dispel the common notion that ALL destroyers hate or don't care about the Geth or EDI, My Shep did. Very much so. He brokered peace between the Geth and Quarians. He encouraged Joker to try a relationship with EDI. He was a true Paragon. He was just incredibly weary of the two other options. My Shep was just talking to the Illusive Man about how high the risks of Control were, "Are you willing to bet Humanity's existence on it?" We've seen what one entity in control of that level of power has done. My Shepard, for all the universe's imperfections, loved diversity. Forcing that level of change, taking away that diversity (even if it was only on the level of Organics and Synthetics) was abhorrent to him, images of the Reapers and the Husks of all the species come to mind. In his mind, it was the Catalyst's solution. The Reaper's solution. This left him with Destroy. He could erase the Reapers from existence, the Catalyst would be no more. Life would be free. Diversity eventually preserved. But at a terrible cost. The Geth and EDI. But he had to take that decision. He would have taken it if it cost any one of the other races instead of the Synthetics, including Humanity. He considered them just as alive. But it didn't make him feel  any better. However, he didn't buy the crap that it was inevitable for  Synthetics to wipe out all other life. His past experiences taught him  this. Synthetics could be rebuilt. But he knew there would be no  bringing EDI or the Geth back. He hopes that they'll be remembered. That when the time comes for new Synthetic intelligences to be built, that  the lessons learned in this war would not be forgotten. That the same  mistakes wouldn't be repeated. There might not be much left. But there is hope.

Not all destroyers are heartless murderers.
 
P.S.Nor am I saying that people who chose anything else are any worse than me. They're all valid options with a high risk/cost. This is purely my reasoning behind me choosing the Destroy option. Its just a case of what cost you are willing to take to do what you percieve must be done.

true paragons wouldnt commit wholesale murder then go on a forum to justify that they are not evil people...just sayin'

[Lord Goose]

And what if they were released from their current state?

It is only possible if new framework for life is created, combining synthetic with organics. As in Synthesis. Before that, they are still not ''awakening''.

[KotorEffect3]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I didn't know i was going to fail.

LMAO,then I didn't know the Geth would die. Since the Catalyst states both will happen.



*A casualty of war and the intent to wipe out an entire race,are two separate Issues.*

Geth are a casualty of war. Not a race wiped out for any specific reason,other then sharing similarities with the Reapers. An unintended side effect. I did not chose to create the Geth in this manner,I did not chose for the crucible to function in this manner. It was never my intent,but rather a casualty of war.

The catalyst saying that you will lose is no more different than if you and me were to play basketball and i were to tell you, your going to lose. Its not a fact, is the catalyst defending what he believes, When the refusal ending was available I had a very him EMS and I though we might have a chance of winning, we didn't, but At least i didn't commit a war crime and submit to the Catalyst tyrany. Also you willingly destroyed the Geth, there were other options but you decided to destroy them, its genocide don't try to justify it.

If you pick refuse than you are just being downright stubborn and foolish.  I don't care how high your EMS is the game makes it very clear that the reapers cannot be defeated conventionaly.  Hackett who is the admiral coordinating all of the allied forces says so on more than one occasion.  Hackett didn't get to where he is by not knowing war.  He knows very well what will happen if the crucible is not used.  Funny thing is the refusal crowd claims they have the moral high ground when they are condemning trillions to their deaths and forcing the next cycle to face the reapers.  Sorry but you don't have the moral high ground when you can end the reaper threat permanently but refuse over a misplaced sense of righteousness.

[wantedman dan]

Lord Goose wrote...

And what if they were released from their current state?

It is only possible if new framework for life is created, combining synthetic with organics. As in Synthesis. Before that, they are still not ''awakening''.

I'll leave you with your speculations.

They, however, when released from their central control, become sentient creatures capable of benefit rather than only of harm. What does that say about their central control?

[Khajiit Jzargo]

IscrewTali wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Tell me if im wrong, but if Godchild is trying to manipulate you into choosing a wrong option, what makes you believe the Geth get destroyed on that specific choice? With that logic i would assume he's telling me this in hope that i would not want to sacrifice the Geth. By saying "i didnt know we would lose" you could also say "i didnt know the Geth would die".

He specifically says "The crucible will not discrinimate, it will destroy all synthetics" stop acting obtuse.

And what makes you believe him/it? You didnt believe anything else he said to you.

I never said I didn't believe what he told me and whether i do or not doesn't change anything, I said i refuse to choose any option he made available to me.

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Destroy is a perfectly valid option to pick, picking destroy doesn't mean you want to destroy the geth or edi. All it means is that they are unfortunate collateral damage. The last casualties in this terrible war but they are sacrifices that will be remembered. The only choice of the 4 that I do condemn is refuse.

That is so wrong, whether you want to destroy them or not, if you choose to do it, its genocide. 

No-one is choosing to kill the geth (well, maybe some are but those people will probably have already done it back at Rannoch). They are choosing to kill the Reapers and the only way to do that is to unfortunately kill the geth too. You can argue about whether or not that's a lesser or greater evil than chosing the risk of Control or the violation of Synthesis (but there's no way you can defend getting everyone killed as better) but genocide it ain't.

Refuse is simply stubborn pride (not helped by the alternatives all being pretty stupid). I wonder how many people have died needlessly to that throughout history?

Modifié par Reorte, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:45 .

[Facemelter91]

Just FYI, Geth don't die in destroy... Red beam would have had to target Geth hardware, which wasn't reaper tech. In order for the red beam to have outright killed them it would have destroyed computer programs as well, which well... our friends on Gilligan's planet wouldn't have left. If the red beam targeted sentient AI, Geth, from the very way they are designed, are not technically AI in a sense. They need to be in large numbers to be even remotely better than a normal VI. The reaper upgrade is merely like updating ME3 to the EC. Red beam would have stripped the reaper upgrade and left the normal stupid Geth. Hell, if you want to stretch it, the Geth could have very well have put a space station out in dark space to monitor for reapers which could very well have been untouched.

Making conclusions from what we are given. There is no indication aside from star brat saying, "derp, they die" that the Geth have perished. They are also made very differently from EDI, so just because she died doesn't mean squat in concern of the Geth.

Modifié par Facemelter91, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:45 .

[wantedman dan]

Reorte wrote...

No-one is choosing to kill the geth (well, maybe some are but those people will probably have already done it back at Rannoch). They are choosing to kill the Reapers and the only way to do that is to unfortunately kill the geth too. You can argue about whether or not that's a lesser or greater evil than chosing the risk of Control or the violation of Synthesis (but there's no way you can defend getting everyone killed as better) but genocide it ain't.

We've been through this before.

You were warned preceding your choice that the Crucible would indiscriminately kill all synthetics. You willingly chose to kill them in addition to the Reapers.

[kleindropper]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No, it makes you a genocidal monster, whether you felt bad for the Geth/Edi or not, your still killing them, I rather refuse and die as a formed galaxy.

Destroying the galaxy to save some walking computers is ridiculous.  They can simply be re-made if you want them back after the Reapers are destroyed.

[Rip504]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The catalyst saying that you will lose is no more different than if you and me were to play basketball and i were to tell you, your going to lose. Its not a fact, is the catalyst defending what he believes, When the refusal ending was available I had a very him EMS and I though we might have a chance of winning, we didn't, but At least i didn't commit a war crime and submit to the Catalyst tyrany. Also you willingly destroyed the Geth, there were other options but you decided to destroy them, its genocide don't try to justify it.

It is fact,proven in game. It is justifiable by every argument that supports Geth or reject ending. You allow the Reapers to keep harvesting all life with no Guarantee of ever stopping them,after rejecting three separate ways of stopping them. Reject is a worse option stop trying to justify it. LMAO again.


Your stating the Catalyst is telling the truth about everything except reject. You are speaking in Bias and nothing else.
The Catalyst could be saying that destroy will kill the Geth, EDI and you to try and persuade you not to destroy them. Although we know this is not the case,just as we know it is fact that you will lose and let all life die,while the Reapers keep on harvesting life when rejecting the Catalyst. MY EMS is over 9,000. I never had any delusions that I would/could win conventionally. I was more then correct.

Modifié par Rip504, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:48 .

[IscrewTali]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

IscrewTali wrote...

Tell me if im wrong, but if Godchild is trying to manipulate you into choosing a wrong option, what makes you believe the Geth get destroyed on that specific choice? With that logic i would assume he's telling me this in hope that i would not want to sacrifice the Geth. By saying "i didnt know we would lose" you could also say "i didnt know the Geth would die".

He specifically says "The crucible will not discrinimate, it will destroy all synthetics" stop acting obtuse.

And what makes you believe him/it? You didnt believe anything else he said to you.

I never said I didn't believe what he told me and whether i do or not doesn't change anything, I said i refuse to choose any option he made available to me.

He also told you that by refusing, the cycle will continue, yet you went with it?