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[Welsh Inferno]

The Angry One wrote...

What is the point of a life built upon an act of cowardice and betrayal?

I guarentee the rest of the Galaxy you just saved won't feel that way.

[The Angry One]

Rasofe wrote...

Pardon, you missunderstood me. I spoke of the pre-EC endings. In the EC all three options are good and refusal is a default surrender.

You have that backwards. RGB are progressively more blatant forms of surrender.

[Father_Jerusalem]

The Angry One wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

And in destroy we will live free. I personally prefer it that way.

You live under the tyranny of the Catalyst's legacy, and you sacrificed billions of Geth to do it.
Its immensely preferable to control and the outright Reaper victory of synthesis, of course, but it's still a future tainted by the Catalyst.

Maybe. But you know what we're not? Dead. We're not dead.

Not being dead > dead.

Full. Stop.

What is the point of a life built upon an act of cowardice and betrayal?

Cowardice and betrayal is turning down your one chance to end this war, forever, because of your self-righteousness and not wanting to believe the Starchild.

But, to answer the question as you framed it: the point of life is that you're alive. That you're not dead. That you didn't help murder trillions of lives because you don't have the cojones to make a hard choice.

That's the point.

[Tealjaker94]

The Angry One wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

And in destroy we will live free. I personally prefer it that way.

You live under the tyranny of the Catalyst's legacy, and you sacrificed billions of Geth to do it.
Its immensely preferable to control and the outright Reaper victory of synthesis, of course, but it's still a future tainted by the Catalyst.

Maybe. But you know what we're not? Dead. We're not dead.

Not being dead > dead.

Full. Stop.

What is the point of a life built upon an act of cowardice and betrayal?

Personally I see it as an act of sacrifice and heroism. We all joined this war with the understanding that we were all willing to lay down our lives for the cause. The geth die so that everyone else may live. Even the geth would prefer that to having everybody die. At least there would be people left to remember their sacrifice.

[The Angry One]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What is the point of a life built upon an act of cowardice and betrayal?

I guarentee the rest of the Galaxy you just saved won't feel that way.

Including the Geth?
They'll feel that way, because that's what they're doing now. Fighting the Reapers to DEFEAT them.
They have no idea the Crucible is actually a dagger in our back.

[tyrvas]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No, it makes you a genocidal monster, whether you felt bad for the Geth/Edi or not, your still killing them, I rather refuse and die as a formed galaxy.

So you choose refuse and allow everyone to die instead of just the geth and edi? That sounds even worse. Plus the Geth and Edi are a necessary sacrifice to make sure the Reaper threat is gone. Control and Synthesis don't accomplish that.

Yes, I rather all die as a galaxy than to have to do something a starbrat told me and commit genocide to a species that had agreed to help me. "I won't let fear comprimise who i am" 

You wont choose destroy because it will kill all the geth (your allies)... instead you will refuse which will kill all the geth (your allies) and every other advanced race...

did you go to the catalyst school of logic?

No, I won't choose destroy because like i said before we didn't agree to commit Genocide. We will die free.

only needs to say us. seems to me you are indoctrinated.

You (your Shepard) decides what everybody will have to accept, so you should say I choose Refuse, not we.

All your allies want you to DESTROY the reapers, what ever the cost.

[Hackulator]

The Angry One wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What is the point of a life built upon an act of cowardice and betrayal?

I guarentee the rest of the Galaxy you just saved won't feel that way.

Including the Geth?
They'll feel that way, because that's what they're doing now. Fighting the Reapers to DEFEAT them.
They have no idea the Crucible is actually a dagger in our back.

Your anger clouds your judgment.

[Welsh Inferno]

The Angry One wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What is the point of a life built upon an act of cowardice and betrayal?

I guarentee the rest of the Galaxy you just saved won't feel that way.

Including the Geth?
They'll feel that way, because that's what they're doing now. Fighting the Reapers to DEFEAT them.
They have no idea the Crucible is actually a dagger in our back.

Bolded part obviously doesn't mean the Geth. 

With Shepard alive he'll tell people about the Crucible & the Catalyst and all that. You think people will be outraged then? No way.

[Rasofe]

The Angry One wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

Pardon, you missunderstood me. I spoke of the pre-EC endings. In the EC all three options are good and refusal is a default surrender.

You have that backwards. RGB are progressively more blatant forms of surrender.

Ok. Whatever.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Vexille wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No, it makes you a genocidal monster, whether you felt bad for the Geth/Edi or not, your still killing them, I rather refuse and die as a formed galaxy.

For anyone looking for a textbook definition of "Irony", I present to you this post.

"I will not become a genocidal monster by killing the Geth, so I will go ahead and let the Reapers kill all life in the galaxy!"

*headdesks*

I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing the absurdity of his argument

I swear sometimes i think people love acting obtuse.
First thing, when you make the refusal desicion, you don't know if your going to die, so your not commiting genocide, your taking your chances which then later on you find out you failed, if you choose destroy you know beforehand your commiting genocide. Secondly, the galaxy didn't agree lets go sacrifice a whole species in order to win, not we will win this war in our terms, not the catalyst terms.

funny... that what most people who read your posts are thinking too.

So you have an option to WIN NOW at the cost of the Geth or.. you choose to refuse and potentially lose ( everyone dies) and even if you win in a refuse scenario billions are going to die.

I'm sorry but sacraficing a couple billion toasters to save the rest of the galaxy is justified

Let me copy what TAO wrote which basically sums up what i was going to say.
"They agreed to fight the Reapers beforehand. To reject the Catalyst's offer is to continue to fight them."
So how am I commiting Genocide if they agreed to fight, also to call the Geth toaster is one stupid, thats like me saying Krogans are dinosaurs, and also show how ignorant you are.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No, it makes you a genocidal monster, whether you felt bad for the Geth/Edi or not, your still killing them, I rather refuse and die as a formed galaxy.

For anyone looking for a textbook definition of "Irony", I present to you this post.

"I will not become a genocidal monster by killing the Geth, so I will go ahead and let the Reapers kill all life in the galaxy!"

*headdesks*

Let me copy and paste my previous post.
No
In destroy you agree to commit genocide by killing the Geth
In refuse, you stick to the original plan of killing the reapers or die trying together, not to sacrifice a whole species so that the rest can live.

I saw your next post. You're still killing EVERYONE in the galaxy - who, by the way, you didn't get to ask if they were okay with that plan - because you won't kill every Geth.

All plans last until the first shot is fired. There is a clear-cut win solution being presented to you that you can achieve by either sacrificing yourself, or sacrificing EDI and the Geth. If you stubbornly stick to "nuh uh! the PLAN!" after being presented with those options, you are a worse war criminal than the Reapers.

If you had radioed EDI and told her "So, I have a chance to kill the Reapers forever, but iit involves killing you. I think instead, I'm gonna say no and just condemn everything in the galaxy to a horrible death." Do you REALLY think she'd say "Oh sure, yeah, go with that idea"? REALLY?

No. Because she's not stupid.

"My shepard" didn't know that we were going to fail when he decided to refuse the Catalyst desicion, he decided it would be better to take our chances instead of commiting outright genocide. So I didn't know beforehand we were all going to die, We did end up dying but I didn't know, so I didn't commit genocide. When you choose destroy you know your killing the Geth. Therefore you commit genocide.

So, even if you didn't know (and the only way to not know, it's willful ignorance on your part) you still decided to gamble the lives of EVERY SENTIENT BEING IN THE GALAXY on the fact that you thought the Starbrat was a snotty little kid?

This is the end game. If you're wrong, you're wrong FOREVER. Everything. Dies. And you're still willing to risk it? Because you think EDI's got a nice ass, or whatever? 

That kind of "logic" makes no sense. Whatsoever. 

Frankly, what BioWare has done with these endings is make a fantastic social experiment. And I definitely know that there's a LOT of people I would never want appointed to any position of authority. Ever. Like... I wouldn't even want them to pick up lunch for me.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

tyrvas wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No, it makes you a genocidal monster, whether you felt bad for the Geth/Edi or not, your still killing them, I rather refuse and die as a formed galaxy.

So you choose refuse and allow everyone to die instead of just the geth and edi? That sounds even worse. Plus the Geth and Edi are a necessary sacrifice to make sure the Reaper threat is gone. Control and Synthesis don't accomplish that.

Yes, I rather all die as a galaxy than to have to do something a starbrat told me and commit genocide to a species that had agreed to help me. "I won't let fear comprimise who i am" 

You wont choose destroy because it will kill all the geth (your allies)... instead you will refuse which will kill all the geth (your allies) and every other advanced race...

did you go to the catalyst school of logic?

No, I won't choose destroy because like i said before we didn't agree to commit Genocide. We will die free.

only needs to say us. seems to me you are indoctrinated.

You (your Shepard) decides what everybody will have to accept, so you should say I choose Refuse, not we.

All your allies want you to DESTROY the reapers, what ever the cost.

I made my decision based on the We the galaxy agreed to do. We the Galaxy agreed to fight the Reapers, We the Galaxy didn't agree to submit to the Catalyst choices.

[Eluril]

While I think the ultimate Paragon choice in the game is Synthesis (the Paragon to me is an idealist who believes that everyone should be saved, no matter the cost to his own person), My renegade Shepard naturally chose Destroy. The Renegade believes that in war, the lesser of all evils has to be chosen and that in war there are no easy choices. The sacrifice of the Geth was irrelevant (they were already dead) and therefore, EDI was the only direct loss. The sacrifice is worth it. My renegade would never agree to synthesis or control. His ideals would normally demand that he go down fighting (Refusal) but with the option to use a weapon of mass destruction to destroy the Reapers he will use it. It's not that he doesn't have qualms, it's that he believes it's the lesser of all evils.

Modifié par Eluril, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:53 .

[Forbry]

Yes, you are but that's o.k... no good people without bad ones

[The Angry One]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

What is the point of a life built upon an act of cowardice and betrayal?

I guarentee the rest of the Galaxy you just saved won't feel that way.

Including the Geth?
They'll feel that way, because that's what they're doing now. Fighting the Reapers to DEFEAT them.
They have no idea the Crucible is actually a dagger in our back.

Bolded part obviously doesn't mean the Geth. 

With Shepard alive he'll tell people about the Crucible & the Catalyst and all that. You think people will be outraged then? No way.

What gives Shepard the right to sacrifice the Geth for that?
Maybe people won't care as long as they're comfortable. That's not the point, is it? We achieve that by mortgaging our future on the Catalyst's agenda.
That just isn't right.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:53 .

[Vexille]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No, it makes you a genocidal monster, whether you felt bad for the Geth/Edi or not, your still killing them, I rather refuse and die as a formed galaxy.

For anyone looking for a textbook definition of "Irony", I present to you this post.

"I will not become a genocidal monster by killing the Geth, so I will go ahead and let the Reapers kill all life in the galaxy!"

*headdesks*

Let me copy and paste my previous post.
No
In destroy you agree to commit genocide by killing the Geth
In refuse, you stick to the original plan of killing the reapers or die trying together, not to sacrifice a whole species so that the rest can live.

I saw your next post. You're still killing EVERYONE in the galaxy - who, by the way, you didn't get to ask if they were okay with that plan - because you won't kill every Geth.

All plans last until the first shot is fired. There is a clear-cut win solution being presented to you that you can achieve by either sacrificing yourself, or sacrificing EDI and the Geth. If you stubbornly stick to "nuh uh! the PLAN!" after being presented with those options, you are a worse war criminal than the Reapers.

If you had radioed EDI and told her "So, I have a chance to kill the Reapers forever, but iit involves killing you. I think instead, I'm gonna say no and just condemn everything in the galaxy to a horrible death." Do you REALLY think she'd say "Oh sure, yeah, go with that idea"? REALLY?

No. Because she's not stupid.

"My shepard" didn't know that we were going to fail when he decided to refuse the Catalyst desicion, he decided it would be better to take our chances instead of commiting outright genocide. So I didn't know beforehand we were all going to die, We did end up dying but I didn't know, so I didn't commit genocide. When you choose destroy you know your killing the Geth. Therefore you commit genocide.

YES YOU DID, everyone spent the entire game telling you conventional victory was impossible. Refusal is a case of commander DERP Shepard snatching  defeat from the jaws of victory

[AxStapleton]

LightningSamus wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

Control is the moral choice in picking an ending.

Eh, the Reaper threat is still present though. Sure the Shepard AI has control for now but eventually the AI could become corrupted and become as stupid as the Star Kid then there will be another reaper war.

Same can be said for destroy, you still haven't resolved the problem between organics and synthetics and it will all come rushing back in the future.

Synthetics will become stronger and try to destroy their masters, the organics are more doomed as they would destroy all organic life while the reapers allowed organic life to live on.

I'm not presenting destroy as the best, be all and end all, ending at all.

Of course it has a lot of potential to do that and its on our head if it happens, but neither is it definite that it will always end in Synthetics wiping out all Organics as Starbrat claims. Otherwise it would have already happened and all this would be a non-issue. The Geth and Quarians were already making the first steps towards peace after nearly wiping each other out.

All the choices (including refusal) are made on the hope that they go in your favour and the slides or subsequent cutscenes all reflect that.

[The Angry One]

Eluril wrote...

While I think the ultimate Paragon choice in the game is Synthesis (the Paragon to me is an idealist who believes that everyone should be saved, no matter the cost to his own person), My renegade Shepard naturally chose Destroy. The Renegade believes that in war, the lesser of all evils has to be chosen and that in war there are no easy choices. The sacrifice of the Geth was irrelevant (they were already dead) and therefore, EDI was the only direct loss. The sacrifice is worth it. My renegade would never agree to synthesis or control.

Synthesis is a Reaper victory. So no.
Moreover, a Paragon would never impose a change on all the people of the galaxy without their consent. That goes against everything a paragon stands for.

[carrmatt91]

i think of it this way

destroy: save countless organic species (discovered/undiscovered)

reject: save no one

[Bfler]

If you argue against destroy do also consider that ME3 bases on the Arrival-DLC, in which Shepard sacrifices countless Batarians to slow down the Reapers.

[v TricKy v]

Master Xanthan wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No, it makes you a genocidal monster, whether you felt bad for the Geth/Edi or not, your still killing them, I rather refuse and die as a formed galaxy.

So you choose refuse and allow everyone to die instead of just the geth and edi? That sounds even worse. Plus the Geth and Edi are a necessary sacrifice to make sure the Reaper threat is gone. Control and Synthesis don't accomplish that.

Yes, I rather all die as a galaxy than to have to do something a starbrat told me and commit genocide to a species that had agreed to help me. "I won't let fear comprimise who i am" 

So you sacrifice everyone for nothing? ok glad we cleared that up.

Why does everyone keep saying that all die for nothing? We made it possible for the next cycle to win. And if the new female stargazer is a hint atleast a few Asari survived. We still played our role in the defeat of the Reapers in the end without giving in.

[Forbry]

Bfler wrote...

If you argue against destroy do also consider that ME3 bases on the Arrival-DLC, in which Shepard sacrifices countless Batarians to slow down the Reapers.

Then there was no other, better option. Now there was.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

No, it makes you a genocidal monster, whether you felt bad for the Geth/Edi or not, your still killing them, I rather refuse and die as a formed galaxy.

For anyone looking for a textbook definition of "Irony", I present to you this post.

"I will not become a genocidal monster by killing the Geth, so I will go ahead and let the Reapers kill all life in the galaxy!"

*headdesks*

Let me copy and paste my previous post.
No
In destroy you agree to commit genocide by killing the Geth
In refuse, you stick to the original plan of killing the reapers or die trying together, not to sacrifice a whole species so that the rest can live.

I saw your next post. You're still killing EVERYONE in the galaxy - who, by the way, you didn't get to ask if they were okay with that plan - because you won't kill every Geth.

All plans last until the first shot is fired. There is a clear-cut win solution being presented to you that you can achieve by either sacrificing yourself, or sacrificing EDI and the Geth. If you stubbornly stick to "nuh uh! the PLAN!" after being presented with those options, you are a worse war criminal than the Reapers.

If you had radioed EDI and told her "So, I have a chance to kill the Reapers forever, but iit involves killing you. I think instead, I'm gonna say no and just condemn everything in the galaxy to a horrible death." Do you REALLY think she'd say "Oh sure, yeah, go with that idea"? REALLY?

No. Because she's not stupid.

"My shepard" didn't know that we were going to fail when he decided to refuse the Catalyst desicion, he decided it would be better to take our chances instead of commiting outright genocide. So I didn't know beforehand we were all going to die, We did end up dying but I didn't know, so I didn't commit genocide. When you choose destroy you know your killing the Geth. Therefore you commit genocide.

So, even if you didn't know (and the only way to not know, it's willful ignorance on your part) you still decided to gamble the lives of EVERY SENTIENT BEING IN THE GALAXY on the fact that you thought the Starbrat was a snotty little kid?

This is the end game. If you're wrong, you're wrong FOREVER. Everything. Dies. And you're still willing to risk it? Because you think EDI's got a nice ass, or whatever? 

That kind of "logic" makes no sense. Whatsoever. 

Frankly, what BioWare has done with these endings is make a fantastic social experiment. And I definitely know that there's a LOT of people I would never want appointed to any position of authority. Ever. Like... I wouldn't even want them to pick up lunch for me.

1-Its not ignorance, I had 8000 ems, I though we had a bit of a chance.
2-How are you to know that the Catalyst isn't lying, How are you to know that destroy won't kill people with synthetic implants, The catalyst even said the Crucible won't discrinimate.. Every desicion is a gamble.
3-Your right theres a lot of people i wish never had authority, like you, especially if i was a geth.

[riesenwiesel]

Hackulator wrote...
Something is only valid as a worthwhile sacrifice if you gain something from it. Choosing Destroy means you murder EDI and the Geth because you are afraid of growing beyond what you currently are, and what you get for their "sacrifice" is a world that is demonstrably worse than a post-Synthesis world in basically every way.

 
It is completely impossible from Shepard's point of view to know how a 
post-synthesis world would look like. 

A shot in the dark that changes every organic and syntetic creature? That is not something you can or want to deside alone.

Modifié par riesenwiesel, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:59 .

[The Angry One]

carrmatt91 wrote...

i think of it this way

destroy: save countless organic species (discovered/undiscovered)

reject: save no one

I think of it this way.

RGB: Doing the Reaper's bidding.

Reject: Fighting the Reapers.

Yes, some of you think submission is preferable to extinction.
I disagree, and so did ME1 and ME2.