933 réponses à ce sujet

[Father_Jerusalem]

BeastSaver wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Kaica wrote...

I can understand Khajiit Jzargo's logic and reasons, even though I always chose and will choose Destroy.

I'm not sure if I'm getting this right, do correct me if I'm wrong.

Khajiit Jzargo refuses to sacrifice anyone. He/she (didn't check, sorry) rather kills everyone than chooses someone(s) to die. I can totally understand that. It is equally fair for all. No guilt.

The reason I (and I guess a lot of others) chose destroy is to do what we were dedicated to do since the first place. We are ready to sacrifice some to gain the goal we already sacrificed so much for: to actually destroy the Reapers. We don't do it for selfish reason, we do it in the name of common good. Even if it means sacrificing some. Sometimes that is what it takes, and it sure ain't easy to make this decision.

There is no correct answer to this, there never is when it comes to moral and ethics. We just have to agree to disagree. For me, refusal is the next best option.

Anyway...

You basically got it right, and I can understand your reasons.

^This^

To me, Control and Synthesize are not options I can take. Destroy first, Refusal second. Both put an end to the Reapers.

One puts an end to the Reapers. One kills all advanced life in the galaxy and allows the cycle to continue until the next cycle decides not to be stupid and stops the Reapers because you wouldn't.

Yeeeeeeeah. I can definitely see why someone'd pick Refuse.

[Rasofe]

Oh god, I feel so excluded out of this conversation.
I'm leaving, bye.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


How do you know the Galaxy isn't united and won't sacrifice anyone even if it means all of them dying. Like i said you can't prove me wrong.

Because logic dictates that not everyone in the galaxy is a complete and utter idiot.

Answer the question, also i should add, I remember talking to EDI, I don't quite remember the story but it went that some people decided to all die instead than to sacrifice each other. Also, do you believe in this quote... "is submission not preferable to extinction"
I remember my shep in ME1 saying I rather die trying.

[Father_Jerusalem]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 No, Destroyers are not heartless murderers.

Refusers are.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

[Tealjaker94]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vexille wrote...

So khajiit, do you believe Admiral Hackett is a murderer for sacrificing one fleet to save 2 others?

"Incompetent fool" would perhaps be a more accurate description.
Too bad Coronati was killed or he'd slap Hackett upside the head for his tactical stupidity.

Basically this.

so your basically dodging the question.

theres no indication at all that Hackett did anything that qualifies as incompetent... the reapers were just too strong.

how about you actually answer it

I will, that analogy doesn't go well with what were arguing. He sacrificed a fleet to save to others so we can fight the reapers and win in our terms.
This is the actual fight, We didn't agree to sacrifice anyone. Also, its a fleet not a whole species,

What? Sacrifice is a part of war. I had no illusions about defeating the Reapers with no casualties and everything being sunshine and rainbows. I guess you thought differently.

Sacrifice yes, killing a whole species, no. I rather die fighting than to betray and commit genocide to one of my allies, thats not sacrifice, thats taking the easy way out, especially when at the time i didn't know if the catalyst was telling the truth, and also I didn't know with 100% certainty that we would lose.

You would make an absolutely terrible general then. You don't have the will to do what must be done. Unlike Tarquin Victus. May he rest in peace.

[Vexille]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vexille wrote...

So khajiit, do you believe Admiral Hackett is a murderer for sacrificing one fleet to save 2 others?

"Incompetent fool" would perhaps be a more accurate description.
Too bad Coronati was killed or he'd slap Hackett upside the head for his tactical stupidity.

Basically this.

so your basically dodging the question.

theres no indication at all that Hackett did anything that qualifies as incompetent... the reapers were just too strong.

how about you actually answer it

I will, that analogy doesn't go well with what were arguing. He sacrificed a fleet to save to others so we can fight the reapers and win in our terms.
This is the actual fight, We didn't agree to sacrifice anyone. Also, its a fleet not a whole species,

What? Sacrifice is a part of war. I had no illusions about defeating the Reapers with no casualties and everything being sunshine and rainbows. I guess you thought differently.

Sacrifice yes, killing a whole species, no. I rather die fighting than to betray and commit genocide to one of my allies, thats not sacrifice, thats taking the easy way out, especially when at the time i didn't know if the catalyst was telling the truth, and also I didn't know with 100% certainty that we would lose.

I love this line and your whole thought process... "I WONT COMMIT GENOCIDE AGAINST THE GETH!"  You then follow this up by making a decision that will kill all the Geth... and every other advanced race.

And you absolutely DID know you would lose conventionally, you just chose to ignore it

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Vexille wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vexille wrote...

So khajiit, do you believe Admiral Hackett is a murderer for sacrificing one fleet to save 2 others?

"Incompetent fool" would perhaps be a more accurate description.
Too bad Coronati was killed or he'd slap Hackett upside the head for his tactical stupidity.

Basically this.

so your basically dodging the question.

theres no indication at all that Hackett did anything that qualifies as incompetent... the reapers were just too strong.

how about you actually answer it

I will, that analogy doesn't go well with what were arguing. He sacrificed a fleet to save to others so we can fight the reapers and win in our terms.
This is the actual fight, We didn't agree to sacrifice anyone. Also, its a fleet not a whole species,

What? Sacrifice is a part of war. I had no illusions about defeating the Reapers with no casualties and everything being sunshine and rainbows. I guess you thought differently.

Sacrifice yes, killing a whole species, no. I rather die fighting than to betray and commit genocide to one of my allies, thats not sacrifice, thats taking the easy way out, especially when at the time i didn't know if the catalyst was telling the truth, and also I didn't know with 100% certainty that we would lose.

So Hackett and everyone else telling you conventional victory wasnt possible... you missed all that?

were you RPing "Stupid Shep"?

You seem to be getting a bit huffy, anyway, you just posted previously that the chances to winning conventionally were Slim to none, Slim is a possibilty. So are contradicting yourselve or what?

[Funkdrspot]

LightningSamus wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

LightningSamus wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...

Control is the moral choice in picking an ending.

Eh, the Reaper threat is still present though. Sure the Shepard AI has control for now but eventually the AI could become corrupted and become as stupid as the Star Kid then there will be another reaper war.

Same can be said for destroy, you still haven't resolved the problem between organics and synthetics and it will all come rushing back in the future.

Synthetics will become stronger and try to destroy their masters, the organics are more doomed as they would destroy all organic life while the reapers allowed organic life to live on.

Speculation based solely upon what the catalyst says. The Reapers are a known threat that exist now. 

Synthetic fought against organics in the past and the reason why reapers exist, Protheans thought them and it's obvios that they have been at war before the catalyst was made.

They don't understand organics and they aren't the same and don't feel pain, and synthetic don't understand that, they upgrade and become advanced, organics will see them as a threat.

Organics are like children still learning from their mistakes, they build things in order to help them survive and they have always had wars against each other, Javik mentions wars in his cycle too. Organics would never be at peace for good, there will always be disputes over different things.
Synthetics helped a race survive as their planet wasn't habitable also Shepard was givien syntheics to survive after being killed by collecters.

There will always be synthetics, organics have different ways and means in using them but things always go wrong

Catalsyt wouldn't have been made if organics weren't looking for a solution to organic and synthetic relations, it's not it's fault for being created, it's organics.

Again, another mistake made by oganics and who says a reaper like species couldn't be made again?

Disagree all you want but it's the truth and i'm not going to argue all day about this.

History always repeats itself.

Uh actually the proberb is "Those who IGNORE history are bound to repeat it"

And it's a proberb, not actual fact.

[DonutsDealer]

I always choose Destroy over Refuse. Just think on this, would any competent soldier just refuse to end a war that WILL ( We are told through all the game we can't win and the Earth mission isn't going good, AKA we are loosing badly ) destroy every human being and alien in the galaxy just to save a bunch of millions of C-3PO's?

You could stick to your morals and ethics and tell Casper to fck off. But by doing that you'll be hated by the whole galaxy ( maybe not by the C-3PO's ) and be considered the greatest failure ever that existed in the human military. Or you could just do your duty as a soldier, shoot a pipe, kill the squids and the C-3PO's. Doing this you'll be doing your duty as a soldier of the human military and you'll be considered a War Hero by humanity and aliens alike.

You may not like that but this is how armies work, and Shepard is in the Alliance Navy and has his duty and mission, which is to destroy the reapers, not doubt in the last moment and doom the whole galaxy to die.

[RonnyB]

I wonder how many people would still take destroy if Humans were on the chopping block instead of the Geth/EDI and there was no breath scene.

In theory everybody would still take destroy because I keep hearing "sacrifices have to be made for the galaxy" and "I didn't do it so my Shep would survive."

[Funkdrspot]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 No, Destroyers are not heartless murderers.

Refusers are.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

^this, times 1000

[Tealjaker94]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


How do you know the Galaxy isn't united and won't sacrifice anyone even if it means all of them dying. Like i said you can't prove me wrong.

Because logic dictates that not everyone in the galaxy is a complete and utter idiot.

Answer the question, also i should add, I remember talking to EDI, I don't quite remember the story but it went that some people decided to all die instead than to sacrifice each other. Also, do you believe in this quote... "is submission not preferable to extinction"
I remember my shep in ME1 saying I rather die trying.

How is killing the Reapers submission? It's hard to give orders when you're dead.

[Vexille]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


How do you know the Galaxy isn't united and won't sacrifice anyone even if it means all of them dying. Like i said you can't prove me wrong.

Because logic dictates that not everyone in the galaxy is a complete and utter idiot.

Answer the question, also i should add, I remember talking to EDI, I don't quite remember the story but it went that some people decided to all die instead than to sacrifice each other. Also, do you believe in this quote... "is submission not preferable to extinction"
I remember my shep in ME1 saying I rather die trying.

I think you are just the worst general ever

as garrus said... its just the ruthless calculus of war... deciding that 10 billion people over here die so that 20 billion people over their live.

you on the other hand just choose to kill everyone because you are afraid of making the tough decisions

[Father_Jerusalem]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


How do you know the Galaxy isn't united and won't sacrifice anyone even if it means all of them dying. Like i said you can't prove me wrong.

Because logic dictates that not everyone in the galaxy is a complete and utter idiot.

Answer the question, also i should add, I remember talking to EDI, I don't quite remember the story but it went that some people decided to all die instead than to sacrifice each other. Also, do you believe in this quote... "is submission not preferable to extinction"
I remember my shep in ME1 saying I rather die trying.

What gives Shepard the moral right to make that decision for EVERY OTHER LIFEFORM IN THE GALAXY? Even if 99% of them were okay with dying horrible horrible deaths for some nebulous "cause" (and they wouldn't be, because they're not idiots) would sacrificing that 1% of ALL LIFE still be worth it for not sacrificing the Geth? 

Even if that 1% was more than the 1.5 billion Geth that there are?

Yes, killing EDI and the Geth is a tragedy. It's SUPPOSED to be. It's supposed to reinforce that wars have sacrifice and that you have to make the hard choices. Personally, I prefer Control. But Refuse? Refuse is the most selfish, cowardly, morally self-righteous ending imaginable. You don't want the Catalyst to force his decisions on the denizens of the galaxy? Well congratulations buddy, you're no different because that's exactly what you. Just. Did.

At least the Catalyst's "forcing" allows everyone to still be alive, which is more than we can say for Shepard's.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


How do you know the Galaxy isn't united and won't sacrifice anyone even if it means all of them dying. Like i said you can't prove me wrong.

Because logic dictates that not everyone in the galaxy is a complete and utter idiot.

Answer the question, also i should add, I remember talking to EDI, I don't quite remember the story but it went that some people decided to all die instead than to sacrifice each other. Also, do you believe in this quote... "is submission not preferable to extinction"
I remember my shep in ME1 saying I rather die trying.

How is killing the Reapers submission? It's hard to give orders when you're dead.

You killed the Reapers but you submitted to the Catalyst by picking one of its absurd options and destroying the Geth.

[Kaica]

RonnyB wrote...

I wonder how many people would still take destroy if Humans were on the chopping block instead of the Geth/EDI and there was no breath scene.

In theory everybody would still take destroy because I keep hearing "sacrifices have to be made for the galaxy" and "I didn't do it so my Shep would survive."

I would. Somehow I doubt you believe me, though

[Lazengan]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Vexille wrote...

ok lets put this in perspective... if you broadcasted the choice to everyone else fighting the Reapers what do you think their response would be?

"Ok guys I can end the reaper threat forever and get us complete victory, but we lose the Geth... or we can take our chances."

This is of course will our fleet is barely holding on against the reapers...

I'm guessing Hackett and everyother commander out their would be shouting "SHOOT THE TUBE YOU IDIOT!"

The Galaxy was completely united, I'm pretty sure when the topic of destroying an entire species to live, most would disagree and make a last stand.

Um no. Even if it were the Asari or the Turians or the Quarians, the rest of the galaxy - and that race itself - would absolutely agree that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and to do what needed to be done. 

Refusal is the absolute epitome of selfishness. 

No, We would fight as a galaxy and not sacrifice each other. Anyway, theres no point of arguing this because its just a matter of opinion. We both have about the same ammount of evidence to support our opinions, so no one can be right.

why choose refusal and doom everyone

when you can choose destroy and only sacrifice the geth and EDI?

where they given a choice, I would think they would choose to sacrifice themselves so that the rest of the galaxy can live

As my Shepard said " I fight for freedom, mine and everyones, I fight for the right to choose our own faith. And if i die, I'll die knowing i did everything i did to stop you and I'll die free"
We agreed to fight the reapers, if i refuse to what the catalyst gives me as choices, im just continuing to fight the reapers, even if that means me dying.

selfish idealism

and most of the galaxy has to pay for your opinion

seriously if I was batman, I wouldn't CARE whether killing joker would affect me negatively, he has killed many people and will continue killing people until I do something about it. Forgetmy seflish idealism, I'm going to man up and kill joker

I am going to take the choice

[Father_Jerusalem]

RonnyB wrote...

I wonder how many people would still take destroy if Humans were on the chopping block instead of the Geth/EDI and there was no breath scene.

In theory everybody would still take destroy because I keep hearing "sacrifices have to be made for the galaxy" and "I didn't do it so my Shep would survive."

I would still take Control first, but I would take Destroy over Refuse every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Spock said that. And you don't argue with Spock.

[agu123]

Kaica wrote...

agu123 wrote...

Kaica wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vexille wrote...

So khajiit, do you believe Admiral Hackett is a murderer for sacrificing one fleet to save 2 others?

"Incompetent fool" would perhaps be a more accurate description.
Too bad Coronati was killed or he'd slap Hackett upside the head for his tactical stupidity.

Basically this.

You two, care to explain? (Just out of curiosity)

I think they're talking about the codex entry named "The Battle of Palaven".

Heh thanks But I meant I would like to read an explanation why Hackett should be called "incompetent fool". In my opinion he was doing his job and he was doing it well. I just want to hear other opinions, too

I saw a thread on the matter about a month ago.

It was a comparison of how Hackett and Coronati handled their respective fleets. I'll look for it.

Edit: got it http://social.biowar...ndex/12009911/1

Modifié par agu123, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:42 .

[babachewie]

I would kill hundreds to save thousands and so on. The end justify the means. Anyway Commander Shepard can answer for himself at :53.

[Tealjaker94]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


How do you know the Galaxy isn't united and won't sacrifice anyone even if it means all of them dying. Like i said you can't prove me wrong.

Because logic dictates that not everyone in the galaxy is a complete and utter idiot.

Answer the question, also i should add, I remember talking to EDI, I don't quite remember the story but it went that some people decided to all die instead than to sacrifice each other. Also, do you believe in this quote... "is submission not preferable to extinction"
I remember my shep in ME1 saying I rather die trying.

How is killing the Reapers submission? It's hard to give orders when you're dead.

You killed the Reapers but you submitted to the Catalyst by picking one of its absurd options and destroying the Geth.

The catalyst is dead too. I don't see the problem here.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


How do you know the Galaxy isn't united and won't sacrifice anyone even if it means all of them dying. Like i said you can't prove me wrong.

Because logic dictates that not everyone in the galaxy is a complete and utter idiot.

Answer the question, also i should add, I remember talking to EDI, I don't quite remember the story but it went that some people decided to all die instead than to sacrifice each other. Also, do you believe in this quote... "is submission not preferable to extinction"
I remember my shep in ME1 saying I rather die trying.

What gives Shepard the moral right to make that decision for EVERY OTHER LIFEFORM IN THE GALAXY? Even if 99% of them were okay with dying horrible horrible deaths for some nebulous "cause" (and they wouldn't be, because they're not idiots) would sacrificing that 1% of ALL LIFE still be worth it for not sacrificing the Geth? 

Even if that 1% was more than the 1.5 billion Geth that there are?

Yes, killing EDI and the Geth is a tragedy. It's SUPPOSED to be. It's supposed to reinforce that wars have sacrifice and that you have to make the hard choices. Personally, I prefer Control. But Refuse? Refuse is the most selfish, cowardly, morally self-righteous ending imaginable. You don't want the Catalyst to force his decisions on the denizens of the galaxy? Well congratulations buddy, you're no different because that's exactly what you. Just. Did.

At least the Catalyst's "forcing" allows everyone to still be alive, which is more than we can say for Shepard's.

You can say that about Control, destroy, and synthesis as well.

[Tealjaker94]

Kaica wrote...

RonnyB wrote...

I wonder how many people would still take destroy if Humans were on the chopping block instead of the Geth/EDI and there was no breath scene.

In theory everybody would still take destroy because I keep hearing "sacrifices have to be made for the galaxy" and "I didn't do it so my Shep would survive."

I would. Somehow I doubt you believe me, though

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...


How do you know the Galaxy isn't united and won't sacrifice anyone even if it means all of them dying. Like i said you can't prove me wrong.

Because logic dictates that not everyone in the galaxy is a complete and utter idiot.

Answer the question, also i should add, I remember talking to EDI, I don't quite remember the story but it went that some people decided to all die instead than to sacrifice each other. Also, do you believe in this quote... "is submission not preferable to extinction"
I remember my shep in ME1 saying I rather die trying.

How is killing the Reapers submission? It's hard to give orders when you're dead.

You killed the Reapers but you submitted to the Catalyst by picking one of its absurd options and destroying the Geth.

The catalyst is dead too. I don't see the problem here.

Whether or not hes dead, you submitted to the Catalyst by picking one of its absurd options and destroying the Geth.

[Funkdrspot]

RonnyB wrote...

I wonder how many people would still take destroy if Humans were on the chopping block instead of the Geth/EDI and there was no breath scene.

In theory everybody would still take destroy because I keep hearing "sacrifices have to be made for the galaxy" and "I didn't do it so my Shep would survive."

I picked destroy b/c i believed in IT originally.

After the EC, i pick Control.

If the sacrifice was humans instead of Geth, I would be even more inclined to pick control.