155 réponses à ce sujet

[Illurim]

MerinTB wrote...
Microsoft.  Is looking.  At the big picture.
Really?

Alright then, nm my inconvenience, you're right, I'm the stupid one.

I mean, why would you ever assume that when a program is being installed and asks you which drive and directory you want it installed to that you'd expect the program to actually install to that drive and directory.  I know, crazy.

I get the move by MS to make each User separate, that is a good thing -
but this move to using My Documents is, indeed, stupid.

I don't know of anyone computer savvy who saves anything in My Documents on purpose, or My Music, or My Videos.

MS has just put another layer of me having to manually adjust and move things on my own.

Great for low-level users, not so great for those of us who know what we are doing.

I find it amusing that a guy who places himself in the category of user that "knows what they're doing":

a) didn't know how to change the location of My Documents
didn't already check and know where the game stored saves

I personally don't understand these alleged "tech savvy" types resisting the use of My Documents/Music/Videos/etc. I mean, what's the point? Whether you store your data in a default location provided for you by the OS or in a location of your own choosing, you still have to back it up if you want to make sure you don't lose anything. And I personally would prefer things stored in one location than one for every App. But yes, maybe it's those of us who have embraced change that are backward...

[Maria Caliban]

Eurypterid wrote...

It's a requirement of the Games For Windows certification. Not sure why some non-GFW games do it as well though. I personally moved My Documents folder to a different partition/drive than the default and luckily haven't had any issues with losing games that way.

But Dragon Age isn't GfW certified and it does this.

[Illurim]

Baalzie wrote...

Where everyones grandmom knows where files will be kept, forcing everyone to use a uniform filestructure... Smart move from a security standpoint? Uhm no...

Wait, you actually think that a reasoned argument for security is obfiscation of where files are stored? If you knew anything about security you would know that no matter where data is stored on your machine, if someone has gotten far enough for you to be worried about them finding it, you're already far beyond screwed.

Security 101. Go read it.

[Spacemonkey79]

I like chips n dip

[Hoondogg]

Serenity84 wrote...

Total idioticy and bad software architecture, but that's MS for you.

*epic eyeroll*

[Maria Caliban]

Illurim wrote...

I personally don't understand these alleged "tech savvy" types resisting the use of My Documents/Music/Videos/etc. I mean, what's the point?

1. I have hundreds of documents and folders under 'My Documents.' I don't want BioWare to add a new one when Vista comes with a User folder called 'My Games.'

2. I have over 500 GB of HD space, and can have over 25 games installed at once. It's nice to have them all in one area. Instead, many of them decide they're going to install the game one spot and something else in another spot. They all have their own idea on where they ought to be installed, so I can easily end up with a dozen different folders scattered across my computer because where a game 'must be installed' changes over time.

[EJ42]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

It's a requirement of the Games For Windows certification. Not sure why some non-GFW games do it as well though. I personally moved My Documents folder to a different partition/drive than the default and luckily haven't had any issues with losing games that way.

But Dragon Age isn't GfW certified and it does this.

I have a friend from Australia, and she drives on the right side of the road when she's in the U.S.A.

What difference does it make?  Bioware made DA:O to run on Windows.  Microsoft has created a standard for GfW games to use.  What is the reasonable logic against using that standard when writing a game for Windows?

Hint:  "Because I don't like it" is not a valid response.

[Sarevok Anchev]

EJ42 wrote...

You should not be playing the game with "root" access. The game should not have access to write to any folder that the existing user does not have access to. This means that you should not be able to write to anything under the "Program Files" tree.
You've been spoiled by the bad computing practices of Windows/DOS for too long. You need to get used to secure computing practices.

Who said "Installing in Program Files"?
I said <D:\\Games\\etc.>

You were right with Admin and 2nd User-profile, thats sth. i forgot.

And i have backups. It just came to late for DA:O (because i tryed at first the Windows Scan, before i copied<_<)


And some persons forgot the main thing: Yes, maybe it has reasons for "crowding" some sorts of files in one folders. But it doesnt have to be in OS-proximity.
Thats like securing porcelain besides the Dynamite-storage(Windows being obviously the first thing to always blow up )

[blazin130791]

"I personally don't understand these alleged "tech savvy" types resisting the use of My Documents/Music/Videos/etc. I mean, what's the point? Whether you store your data in a default location provided for you by the OS or in a location of your own choosing, you still have to back it up if you want to make sure you don't lose anything."



isn't it to do with vista being the devil's-tool?

[Sarevok Anchev]

blazin130791 wrote...

"I personally don't understand these alleged "tech savvy" types resisting the use of My Documents/Music/Videos/etc. I mean, what's the point? Whether you store your data in a default location provided for you by the OS or in a location of your own choosing, you still have to back it up if you want to make sure you don't lose anything."

isn't it to do with vista being the devil's-tool?

Thats why many believers and christians and conspiracy-theorists are still using XP 

[Varenus Luckmann]

I'm with OP. It's retarded.

And yes, I can and will blame the developers for this. "Games for Windows" is a worthless sticker and completely unnecessary if you slap a "PC" sticker on it or "Requires Windows".

[chasethesunset]

Six of one, half dozen of the other to me. I make weekly (or more frequent if I do a lot in-game) backups of my save folders (among other files). Call it anal, but it's saved a lot of headaches for me a lot of times.

[Sarevok Anchev]

chasethesunset wrote...

Six of one, half dozen of the other to me. I make weekly (or more frequent if I do a lot in-game) backups of my save folders (among other files). Call it anal, but it's saved a lot of headaches for me a lot of times.

Yes thats true. Either choose 1to6 for headache and missing files or 7to12 and buttache for backups.

But seriously.... I always prefer seven of nine

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

You should not be playing the game with "root" access. The game should not have access to write to any folder that the existing user does not have access to. This means that you should not be able to write to anything under the "Program Files" tree.

I don't even install games to the Program Files tree.  I'm not even sure why it exists.

Nor do I install anything to the Program Files tree - unless it does it without giving you the option (as too many programs do.)

[MerinTB]

Illurim wrote...
I find it amusing that a guy who places himself in the category of user that "knows what they're doing":

Happy to entertain you.

a) didn't know how to change the location of My Documents
didn't already check and know where the game stored saves

I've never used a Mac in my life either, so the simplest of functions with those would be something I didn't know.  Doesn't make me dumb, doesn't make those functions hard.

I've never used My Documents for anything, ever.  I've ignored it until THIS GAME where suddenly I noticed, when installing mods, that it is storing stuff in My Documents.  I think I have one or two other games that are the Games For Windows crap (Fallout 3, Dawn of War 2) and, trust me, I was frustrated by their decision to move the files there too, but this was the first time I found GIGS of space being used by a game in a drive I didn't install it to.

For twenty years I've not needed to double-check that game saves weren't being put somewhere vastly different than the directory and drive (or disc, going back to games saving on floppies) the game was installed on.  Forgive me if, after doing something a certain ways for decades that suddenly a new change threw me.

When you are out fixing other people's software and hardware for money, you come back and act superior, son.

I personally don't understand these alleged "tech savvy" types resisting the use of My Documents/Music/Videos/etc. I mean, what's the point? Whether you store your data in a default location provided for you by the OS or in a location of your own choosing, you still have to back it up if you want to make sure you don't lose anything. And I personally would prefer things stored in one location than one for every App. But yes, maybe it's those of us who have embraced change that are backward...

I have said it multiple times, but since you seem slow (and by slow I mean you admit here that you don't understand despite I and others saying it a few times now) - saving ANY IMPORTANT DATA on the same drive AS THE OS is a bad.  Very bad.  The OS, whether designed well or poorly (this isn't a dig at MS), is the number one cause of computer crashes, the number one piece of software likely to screw up your hard drive, as it is the one piece of software always running and always having to interact with everything.
When the OS crashes, the number one solution is wiping the hard drive and re-installing the OS.
IF you store your important data on a drive other than your OS's drive, when you have the crash and do the reinstall, all you have to reinstall is the OS.

I hope that wasn't too technical for you.  I am paid to give people this advice.  But feel free to talk about your "embracing change" rhetoric - because there is a new way to do something doesn't always mean it's a better way.

[bjdbwea]

My number one solution has always been to try and find the problem. If anything, restore an image of the partition. But even if Windows doesn't boot anymore, as long as the HD isn't defect, usually the data on the drive will not be lost and can easily be recovered. As someone else said, an HD can always fail. That's why you always need to backup important data (though I usually don't count my save games amongst those). But since NTFS, there's not really a reason not to save Documents on the same partition or drive, though it of course can't hurt to put it elsewhere.

[Darpaek]

This trend in video games annoys me so much, too! Especially as saved games get bigger.



I deleted all the old saved games from games I'd uninstalled a year ago in my MyDocs a couple months ago and freed up 12 gig.

[Dex1701]

Putting saved games (and all user-specific application data) in a location that is separate for each user and also separate from the application itself is a very, VERY good idea and something that Microsoft should have started requiring of all Windows developers a long time ago. Applications shouldn't write to the location they're installed for security reasons (and if you've ever had a program bombard you with Windows UAC messages it's probably because said program wasn't written to work that way), and user and application data should all be kept separate so it can be backed up and restored in case you have to ever uninstall and reinstall applications (like when you load a new OS).

Here's what I do: create a partition for your OS and programs (programs can be on a second partition if you want). Now create a separate partition for application and user data. Now if you have to reinstall your OS your application and user data stays there, unmolested, on a partition separate from your OS and programs. This is easy to do with Vista and Win7. This can be accomplished in XP by creating a custom installer using a tool like nLite (can also be done by editing a bunch of keys in the system registry, but I don't recommend that unless you're an advanced user).

Now you can create an image of your OS/Programs partition and periodically back up your data partition.  If anything happens to the OS/Programs partition you simply restore the image.  If anything happens to your data you simply get it from your last good backup.

To those claiming that the decision is "retarded," where would you put it?  MS has to make some decisions for the non-tech savvy users that can't/won't make the decision for themselves, you know.

Modifié par Dex1701, 16 décembre 2009 - 01:41 .

[Darpaek]

There's a big difference between a video game and a "Windows Application."



Office hasn't left my HD since I purchased my laptop, nor will it. I've installed and uninstalled dozens of games in the meantime.



Despite all of Microsoft Gaming Studio's wishes - no video game will ever be a permanent installation on a harddrive (except for Civ and Hearts of Iron 2 LOL)

[orpheus333]

MerinTB wrote...
I've never used a Mac in my life either, so the simplest of functions with those would be something I didn't know.  Doesn't make me dumb, doesn't make those functions hard.

I hate mac i have to use one for Pro Tools and its the most unuser friendly, patronising OS and software i have ever used in my life. Jesus its irritating and guess what? It crashes more than my Win7 box. Who would have thought. Not good for audio at all. I've had Linux audio systems that work better than mac. Arrrgh!

Sorry. The past two days working with them has really gotten to me.

Modifié par andyr1986, 16 décembre 2009 - 01:52 .

[Dex1701]

Darpaek wrote...

There's a big difference between a video game and a "Windows Application."

Office hasn't left my HD since I purchased my laptop, nor will it. I've installed and uninstalled dozens of games in the meantime.

Despite all of Microsoft Gaming Studio's wishes - no video game will ever be a permanent installation on a harddrive (except for Civ and Hearts of Iron 2 LOL)

So, the "big difference" is how long they remain installed on a machine?

[Darpaek]

As a lifetime MS user who did IT in college and had to learn at least rudimentary Mac-age to do my job - Mac OS is the most counter-intuitive, difficult piece of software to use - and I'm relatively proficient! I can understand how someone who's never used an MS OS in their life can pick up MAC OS easily, but making the switch was tough.



Mac sucks. Back on topic. =D

[Darpaek]

The "big difference" is their intended use. No video game is intended to be a permanent fixture on a PC drive. A "Windows Application" IS intended to be a permanent fixture.

[Dex1701]

Darpaek wrote...

The "big difference" is their intended use. No video game is intended to be a permanent fixture on a PC drive. A "Windows Application" IS intended to be a permanent fixture.

I don't think either of those statements are defensible.  The amount of time any application is intended to be installed (unless it has some kind of dev-imposed limitation) is exactly as long as the user wants it installed.  How does that have anything to do with the location saved games are stored?  Not trying to be argumentative...I just think that MS is moving very strongly in the right direction with the changes they've made to the OS's file system layout and security (things that have needed attention for a long time).

Don't most games ask you whether or not you want to keep your saved games when you uninstall them anyway?  As a rule when you're dealing with someone else's data it's usually better to err on the side of caution and leave the data alone rather than deleting it when in doubt.

Modifié par Dex1701, 16 décembre 2009 - 02:21 .

[orpheus333]

Darpaek wrote...

As a lifetime MS user who did IT in college and had to learn at least rudimentary Mac-age to do my job - Mac OS is the most counter-intuitive, difficult piece of software to use - and I'm relatively proficient! I can understand how someone who's never used an MS OS in their life can pick up MAC OS easily, but making the switch was tough.

Mac sucks. Back on topic. =D

Imagine using it without any sort of tutorial on how the basic functions of the OS works (Get Info...for example, it took me 5 minutes find file size information today.) and then plug an equally unintuative application like Pro Tools HD into it. 

Yeah anyway on with the thread.

Modifié par andyr1986, 16 décembre 2009 - 02:02 .