53 réponses à ce sujet

[Hackulator]

Really, there is one major ambiguity from which I believe the majority of the issues with the choices presented at the end come from. That mistake is their failure to make it clear that the choices come from the Crucible, and not the Catalyst. As the ending currently stand, even with the Extended Cut, it is not clear whether the choices originate with the Crucible or the Catalyst. Though some lines suggest they come from the Crucible, most tellingly the line “The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities", other aspects of the ending bring players away from this belief. The simple fact that is the Catalyst presenting you these choices without any clear proof that they are NOT his choices leads players to feel that they are making choices given to them by the Catalyst, not the Crucible.

I believe that if it had been made clear that the choices were coming from the Crucible, and being forced upon the Catalyst by the power of the Crucible, people would have been much more accepting of the ending. If what you were presented with was three possibilites for stopping the Reaper threat that had been conceived of and realized by all the Reapers victims throughout the cycles, and that they had sacrificed everything so that one day YOU could have this choice. No longer would there be any belief that the ending was capitulating to what the Catalyst wanted. Instead, the ending would be Shepard joining together with the will of EVERY species that had ever faced the Reaper threat to throw them down.

As Javik says, "Every soul that has ever existed is watching this moment....victory is never won without difficult choices."

[Clayless]

I thought it was pretty clear but I agree with you that others don't see it as being clear. There's a lot of deus ex machina talk about the Catalyst despite the fact that he just relays information on what the Crucible does.

[Hackulator]

Eh, while I believe that the choices come from the Crucible, I totally see why other people are confused or don't see it that way. When an entity presents you with a group of choices, it is of course natural to associate those choices with that entity.

Modifié par Hackulator, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:57 .

[Clayless]

It took a deep voice to make some people realise that the Catalyst's true form probably isn't that of a little human boy that speaks English, so the fact that a lot of people don't realise that these aren't the Catalyst's options doesn't surprise me.

[Hackulator]

bump, I'd really like to get more feedback on this

[Galiredon]

Hackulator wrote...

Really, there is one major ambiguity from which I believe the majority of the issues with the choices presented at the end come from. That mistake is their failure to make it clear that the choices come from the Crucible, and not the Catalyst. As the ending currently stand, even with the Extended Cut, it is not clear whether the choices originate with the Crucible or the Catalyst. Though some lines suggest they come from the Crucible, most tellingly the line “The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities", other aspects of the ending bring players away from this belief. The simple fact that is the Catalyst presenting you these choices without any clear proof that they are NOT his choices leads players to feel that they are making choices given to them by the Catalyst, not the Crucible.

I believe that if it had been made clear that the choices were coming from the Crucible, and being forced upon the Catalyst by the power of the Crucible, people would have been much more accepting of the ending. If what you were presented with was three possibilites for stopping the Reaper threat that had been conceived of and realized by all the Reapers victims throughout the cycles, and that they had sacrificed everything so that one day YOU could have this choice. No longer would there be any belief that the ending was capitulating to what the Catalyst wanted. Instead, the ending would be Shepard joining together with the will of EVERY species that had ever faced the Reaper threat to throw them down.

As Javik says, "Every soul that has ever existed is watching this moment....victory is never won without difficult choices."

I completely agree that if the choices are from the Crucible it would make the endings sit better in my mind. What makes you think the choices are from the Crucible? To me, the game didn't make it clear where the choices came from.

[Dresden867]

I think you're basically dead on, yeah.

Answering your question, Galiredon: the impression I got was that the Catalyst did not have these options for "a new solution" until the GIANT HONKING POWER SOURCE was attached, but I can't pin it down much better than that. I've only been through that whole conversation the once so far.

[JamieCOTC]

And here is an image to prove your point.



from this thread.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:43 .

[Iucounou]

I just have difficulty understanding how a civilization would even come up with the concept for the Crucible in the first place.

To do so it would require an understanding of the Reapers, the Catalyst and everything else. Yet starbrat says he only became aware of the concept of the Crucible a few cycles previously. So who originally envisaged it and how? If they had an understanding of everything necessary to build it, surely they could have come up with something a little less convoluted.

Also, several different races have worked on the design over various cycles. How? None of them knew what it was or what it would do. How do you add to something when you have no understanding of it?

It's all nonsense that makes no sense whatsoever when you shine the light of reason on to it.

[SpamBot2000]

What about "the crucible is merely an energy source"?

[JamieCOTC]

Iucounou wrote...

I just have difficulty understanding how a civilization would even come up with the concept for the Crucible in the first place.

To do so it would require an understanding of the Reapers, the Catalyst and everything else. Yet starbrat says he only became aware of the concept of the Crucible a few cycles previously. So who originally envisaged it and how? If they had an understanding of everything necessary to build it, surely they could have come up with something a little less convoluted.

Also, several different races have worked on the design over various cycles. How? None of them knew what it was or what it would do. How do you add to something when you have no understanding of it?

It's all nonsense that makes no sense whatsoever when you shine the light of reason on to it.

Well ... yeah, but this is all we got to work with.

[Iucounou]

[quote]JamieCOTC wrote...

[quote]

Well ... yeah, but this is all we got to work with.

[/quote]

I know. But I still struggle with understanding how a writer could introduce something that makes as little sense as the Crucible does. Yes, you can build something from a plan without any real knowledge of what you are building, but someone had to draw that plan and we are told many cycles have worked on it.

It's like being given the circuit diagram of a modern television and then adding stuff to it. Unless you know what it is in the first place you haven't got a hope. And all that survived was the plan, no notes or anything else.

It's very silly.

[ohiocat110]

Iucounou wrote...

I just have difficulty understanding how a civilization would even come up with the concept for the Crucible in the first place.

To do so it would require an understanding of the Reapers, the Catalyst and everything else. Yet starbrat says he only became aware of the concept of the Crucible a few cycles previously. So who originally envisaged it and how? If they had an understanding of everything necessary to build it, surely they could have come up with something a little less convoluted.

Also, several different races have worked on the design over various cycles. How? None of them knew what it was or what it would do. How do you add to something when you have no understanding of it?

It's all nonsense that makes no sense whatsoever when you shine the light of reason on to it.

Maybe previous cycles understood the Reapers and technology much better but just failed in building and using the Crucible.

Adding to technology without complete understanding of it is entirely plausible. Do you need degrees in electronics and mechanical engineering to know that air flow helps combustion and putting a hood scoop on your car will make it go faster? No.

So maybe the first civilization to build the Crucible had it destroyed in battle, and somebody else came along and put a big armored shell with explosive bolts around it. It's not implausible at all if you think through how it might have happened.

Modifié par ohiocat110, 01 juillet 2012 - 09:31 .

[BigBadMammogram]

Starbrat says they tried the synthesis option once before. Everything in the game says the crucible has never been built before. So how does the crucible give the synthesis option to starbrat if it doesnt exist?

The crucible somehow manages to rewrite the most advanced AI in the galaxay, despite being nothing more than a "crude power source" according to starbrat.

To me, that makes it sound like the endings are coming from starbrat. However, nothing in the ending is clear.

[NUM13ER]

Our_Last_Scene...
I thought it was pretty clear but I agree with you that others don't see it as being clear. There's a lot of deus ex machina talk about the Catalyst despite the fact that he just relays information on what the Crucible does.

The Crucible directly alters him to allow the options, so actually the abilities do in fact come from him. So basically he's a character introduced late in the story, through him new solutions arrive to end the central conflict and he also quickly ties up the plot points such as the origins and motives of the Reapers. All in the space of five minutes. That's a pretty well defined Deus ex Machina. Even when ignoring the fact he's also literally residing within in a machine.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 01 juillet 2012 - 09:57 .

[Lee T]

Hackulator wrote...
I believe that if it had been made clear that the choices were coming from the Crucible

Better yet, if they had simply cared to connect those options to the rest of the story. For exemple the game could tell us that "Destroy" is the default setting the Alliance was working on, "Synthesis" is the result of the joint work of the Quarian/Geth scientists as an alternative to the destory function (it could even be only available if you successfully negociate peace with both), and "Control" was added by the Cerberus operatives within the project (it's also very Salarian).

[Memnon]

The Crucible is just a battery

[Hackulator]

Iucounou wrote...

So who originally envisaged it and how? If they had an understanding of everything necessary to build it, surely they could have come up with something a little less convoluted.

Also, several different races have worked on the design over various cycles. How? None of them knew what it was or what it would do. How do you add to something when you have no understanding of it?

It was originally envisaged by the last pre-Reaper cycle. They created the Catalyst, and when it came up with its "solution", they began to design the catalyst to counteract it, but they did not have time.

As to your second question, remember that in most other cycles, the Reaper War lasted MUCH longer, as much as hundreds of years during cycles like those of the Protheans. Therefore, they would have had much longer to study the Crucible plans and figure out exactly what it did and how to improve it. The beings of our cycle have had only a few months so look at the Crucible.

BigBadMammogram wrote...
Starbrat says they tried the synthesis option once before. Everything in the game says the crucible has never been built before. So how does the crucible give the synthesis option to starbrat if it doesnt exist?

Actually, all he saiys is that he tried a "similar" solution, not the same. Additionally, if you actually listen to the dialogue, there is a pause in that sentence that suggests his solution was perhaps not ALL that similar.

Allow me to present to you my personal interpretation of what is happening during the scene as written. The Crucible is basically FORCING the Catalyst to present the choices to you. The Catalyst does not really want you to take any of the choices, because it believes its solution is the only one.

However, as is the case in a common scifi/fantasy trope, whenever you are forcing someone to do something through magical/technological means they will try to fight against your control, or they will use mistakes in your exact orders to work around them, similar to how in some stories a genie will grant your wishes, but unless you are very exact in how you describe them they go wrong in some way.

Therefore, although the Catalyst is forced to present the choices to you, it does so in a somewhat inconsistent and confusing manner in order to make you doubt the choices you are given. He makes contradictory statements and gives somewhat vague answers, because this is the only way he can fight against what the Crucible is forcing him to do. The Catalyst actually WANTS you to Refject the choices, because then his solution can continue. The "SO BE IT" is the closest a Reaper comes to a happy voice.

[Galiredon]

NUM13ER wrote...

Our_Last_Scene...
I thought it was pretty clear but I agree with you that others don't see it as being clear. There's a lot of deus ex machina talk about the Catalyst despite the fact that he just relays information on what the Crucible does.

The Crucible directly alters him to allow the options, so actually the abilities do in fact come from him. So basically he's a character introduced late in the story, through him new solutions arrive to end the central conflict and he also quickly ties up the plot points such as the origins and motives of the Reapers. All in the space of five minutes. That's a pretty well defined Deus ex Machina. Even when ignoring the fact he's also literally residing within in a machine.

You're spot on NUM13ER...
From 
http://en.wikipedia....Deus_ex_machina 

"A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object."

[Ticonderoga117]

Galiredon wrote...

NUM13ER wrote...

Our_Last_Scene...
I thought it was pretty clear but I agree with you that others don't see it as being clear. There's a lot of deus ex machina talk about the Catalyst despite the fact that he just relays information on what the Crucible does.

The Crucible directly alters him to allow the options, so actually the abilities do in fact come from him. So basically he's a character introduced late in the story, through him new solutions arrive to end the central conflict and he also quickly ties up the plot points such as the origins and motives of the Reapers. All in the space of five minutes. That's a pretty well defined Deus ex Machina. Even when ignoring the fact he's also literally residing within in a machine.

You're spot on NUM13ER...
From 
http://en.wikipedia....Deus_ex_machina 

"A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object."

Aye, and the Crucible is his battery.

[Merwanor]

Hackulator wrote...

Iucounou wrote...

So who originally envisaged it and how? If they had an understanding of everything necessary to build it, surely they could have come up with something a little less convoluted.

Also, several different races have worked on the design over various cycles. How? None of them knew what it was or what it would do. How do you add to something when you have no understanding of it?

It was originally envisaged by the last pre-Reaper cycle. They created the Catalyst, and when it came up with its "solution", they began to design the catalyst to counteract it, but they did not have time.

As to your second question, remember that in most other cycles, the Reaper War lasted MUCH longer, as much as hundreds of years during cycles like those of the Protheans. Therefore, they would have had much longer to study the Crucible plans and figure out exactly what it did and how to improve it. The beings of our cycle have had only a few months so look at the Crucible.

BigBadMammogram wrote...
Starbrat says they tried the synthesis option once before. Everything in the game says the crucible has never been built before. So how does the crucible give the synthesis option to starbrat if it doesnt exist?

Actually, all he saiys is that he tried a "similar" solution, not the same. Additionally, if you actually listen to the dialogue, there is a pause in that sentence that suggests his solution was perhaps not ALL that similar.

Allow me to present to you my personal interpretation of what is happening during the scene as written. The Crucible is basically FORCING the Catalyst to present the choices to you. The Catalyst does not really want you to take any of the choices, because it believes its solution is the only one.

However, as is the case in a common scifi/fantasy trope, whenever you are forcing someone to do something through magical/technological means they will try to fight against your control, or they will use mistakes in your exact orders to work around them, similar to how in some stories a genie will grant your wishes, but unless you are very exact in how you describe them they go wrong in some way.

Therefore, although the Catalyst is forced to present the choices to you, it does so in a somewhat inconsistent and confusing manner in order to make you doubt the choices you are given. He makes contradictory statements and gives somewhat vague answers, because this is the only way he can fight against what the Crucible is forcing him to do. The Catalyst actually WANTS you to Refject the choices, because then his solution can continue. The "SO BE IT" is the closest a Reaper comes to a happy voice.

Spot on, rejecting is actually what I think is exactly what the reapers wants you to do. The 3 options we are given are basically a patch introduced by the crucible, a dlc if you want to make it gamey That introduces 3 new options that the previous races made to solve the cycle.

[Evo_9]

Hackulator wrote...

Really, there is one major ambiguity from which I believe the majority of the issues with the choices presented at the end come from. That mistake is their failure to make it clear that the choices come from the Crucible, and not the Catalyst. As the ending currently stand, even with the Extended Cut, it is not clear whether the choices originate with the Crucible or the Catalyst. Though some lines suggest they come from the Crucible, most tellingly the line “The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities", other aspects of the ending bring players away from this belief. The simple fact that is the Catalyst presenting you these choices without any clear proof that they are NOT his choices leads players to feel that they are making choices given to them by the Catalyst, not the Crucible.

I believe that if it had been made clear that the choices were coming from the Crucible, and being forced upon the Catalyst by the power of the Crucible, people would have been much more accepting of the ending. If what you were presented with was three possibilites for stopping the Reaper threat that had been conceived of and realized by all the Reapers victims throughout the cycles, and that they had sacrificed everything so that one day YOU could have this choice. No longer would there be any belief that the ending was capitulating to what the Catalyst wanted. Instead, the ending would be Shepard joining together with the will of EVERY species that had ever faced the Reaper threat to throw them down.

As Javik says, "Every soul that has ever existed is watching this moment....victory is never won without difficult choices."

Its clear that, next time, bioware need to draw pretty little pictures, have easy to understand diagrams and perhaps pop up pictures to explain EVERYTHING for most of the mass effect fans out there. Its not that hard to realise that the crucible has provided the options.

Modifié par Evo_9, 01 juillet 2012 - 10:38 .

[OchreJelly]

JamieCOTC wrote...

And here is an image to prove your point.
 
*Image snip*

Setting aside my feelings on the Derpcible and Derpalyst...

Though that image is relying on speculation, it seems logical enough and looks like it does indeed behave how it claims. I really don't know why they didn't show that expanding and fitting into place then. While not neccessary, it does change how the Catalyst v. Crucible situation can be taken by a huge margin.

One of the writers (unnamed because I have no proof) seems to have a fancy for cutting out random chunks of important information, and it bothers me so much.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 01 juillet 2012 - 10:48 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Evo_9 wrote...
Its clear that, next time, bioware need to draw pretty little pictures, have easy to understand diagrams and perhaps pop up pictures to explain EVERYTHING for most of the mass effect fans out there. Its not that hard to realise that the crucible has provided the options.

Well apparently you need them because the Crucible provides nothing but power. All the actual mechanisms for the endings are in the Citadel already. I theorized as much pre-EC, GlowBoy now confirms.

[Hackulator]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well apparently you need them because the Crucible provides nothing but power. All the actual mechanisms for the endings are in the Citadel already. I theorized as much pre-EC, GlowBoy now confirms.

If you actually look at the prior posts in this thread, you will see that every point you raise here has already been answered.