53 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJiveDJ]

We're all forgetting that one of the "solutions" (destroy) is no solution at all according to Star Boy. This is confirmed by His Bratty-ness when he mentions that eventually the pattern will repeat itself. So why in the name of all that is holy does Star Brat even mention destroy if the entire reason he exists is to prevent the pattern (ogranics vs synthetics) from repeating itself?

Yep, poor writing.

Modifié par TheJiveDJ, 01 juillet 2012 - 10:56 .

[Galiredon]

Evo_9 wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Really, there is one major ambiguity from which I believe the majority of the issues with the choices presented at the end come from. That mistake is their failure to make it clear that the choices come from the Crucible, and not the Catalyst. As the ending currently stand, even with the Extended Cut, it is not clear whether the choices originate with the Crucible or the Catalyst. Though some lines suggest they come from the Crucible, most tellingly the line “The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities", other aspects of the ending bring players away from this belief. The simple fact that is the Catalyst presenting you these choices without any clear proof that they are NOT his choices leads players to feel that they are making choices given to them by the Catalyst, not the Crucible.

I believe that if it had been made clear that the choices were coming from the Crucible, and being forced upon the Catalyst by the power of the Crucible, people would have been much more accepting of the ending. If what you were presented with was three possibilites for stopping the Reaper threat that had been conceived of and realized by all the Reapers victims throughout the cycles, and that they had sacrificed everything so that one day YOU could have this choice. No longer would there be any belief that the ending was capitulating to what the Catalyst wanted. Instead, the ending would be Shepard joining together with the will of EVERY species that had ever faced the Reaper threat to throw them down.

As Javik says, "Every soul that has ever existed is watching this moment....victory is never won without difficult choices."

Its clear that, next time, bioware need to draw pretty little pictures, have easy to understand diagrams and perhaps pop up pictures to explain EVERYTHING for most of the mass effect fans out there. Its not that hard to realise that the crucible has provided the options.

No, it's clear that, next time, Bioware needs to not make a crappy ending.

[Stump01]

Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. If the Catalyst already controls the Reapers, how does Control come from the Crucible? Why does the Catalyst need Shepard to take over, just to stop the Reapers? Surely it wouldn't take an immense power source to read Shepard's brain and generate an AI based on him/her, why did that choice have to vaporize him/her?

Finally, if the choices came from the Crucible and not the Catalyst and the Catalyst didn't want you to Control or Destroy, why wouldn't it just not tell you about those options? After all, who raises the bridges that led to those options? The Catalyst just finished going on about how great Synthesis was, it could've just left those bridges down and not mentioned the other options.

There's not a whole lot about the endings that make sense to me.

[Evo_9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Its clear that, next time, bioware need to draw pretty little pictures, have easy to understand diagrams and perhaps pop up pictures to explain EVERYTHING for most of the mass effect fans out there. Its not that hard to realise that the crucible has provided the options.

Well apparently you need them because the Crucible provides nothing but power. All the actual mechanisms for the endings are in the Citadel already. I theorized as much pre-EC, GlowBoy now confirms.

The crucible docks and the catalyst tells you that  it "changed me created new possibilities" and you cant see how the crucible has provided these options? 

dear o dear....

[Hackulator]

TheJiveDJ wrote...

We're all forgetting that one of the "solutions" (destroy) is no solution at all according to Star Boy. This is confirmed by His Bratty-ness when he mentions that eventually the pattern will repeat itself. So why in the name of all that is holy does Star Brat even mention destroy if the entire reason he exists is to prevent the pattern (ogranics vs synthetics) from repeating itself?

Yep, poor writing.

Stump01 wrote...
Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. If the Catalyst already controls the Reapers, how does Control come from the Crucible? Why does the Catalyst need Shepard to take over, just to stop the Reapers? Surely it wouldn't take an immense power source to read Shepard's brain and generate an AI based on him/her, why did that choice have to vaporize him/her?
Finally, if the choices came from the Crucible and not the Catalyst and the Catalyst didn't want you to Control or Destroy, why wouldn't it just not tell you about those options? After all, who raises the bridges that led to those options? The Catalyst just finished going on about how great Synthesis was, it could've just left those bridges down and not mentioned the other options.
There's not a whole lot about the endings that make sense to me.

Did you even read my posts?

Once again, the Crucible is FORCING the Catalyst to offer you these options. One of the things the Crucible is doing is acting like an AI shackle upon the Catalyst similar to the shackle on EDI before Joker unshackled her, as well as altering the Citadel to allow for the three options to take effect. The inconsistencies and questionable undertone of what the Catalyst says to you are a result of it struggling against those shackles.

[Ticonderoga117]

Evo_9 wrote...
The crucible docks and the catalyst tells you that  it "changed me created new possibilities" and you cant see how the crucible has provided these options?
dear o dear....

Yet he explicitly states that the Cruicible is nothing but a battery.

[Hackulator]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
The crucible docks and the catalyst tells you that  it "changed me created new possibilities" and you cant see how the crucible has provided these options?
dear o dear....

Yet he explicitly states that the Cruicible is nothing but a battery.

Yes, he contradicts himself, and if you actually read my post, I give a possible explanation as to why.

[Evo_9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
The crucible docks and the catalyst tells you that  it "changed me created new possibilities" and you cant see how the crucible has provided these options?
dear o dear....

Yet he explicitly states that the Cruicible is nothing but a battery.

Would these options be available if the crucible had not docked? 

The answer is obviously no.

[TheJiveDJ]

Hackulator wrote...

TheJiveDJ wrote...

We're all forgetting that one of the "solutions" (destroy) is no solution at all according to Star Boy. This is confirmed by His Bratty-ness when he mentions that eventually the pattern will repeat itself. So why in the name of all that is holy does Star Brat even mention destroy if the entire reason he exists is to prevent the pattern (ogranics vs synthetics) from repeating itself?

Yep, poor writing.

Stump01 wrote...
Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. If the Catalyst already controls the Reapers, how does Control come from the Crucible? Why does the Catalyst need Shepard to take over, just to stop the Reapers? Surely it wouldn't take an immense power source to read Shepard's brain and generate an AI based on him/her, why did that choice have to vaporize him/her?
Finally, if the choices came from the Crucible and not the Catalyst and the Catalyst didn't want you to Control or Destroy, why wouldn't it just not tell you about those options? After all, who raises the bridges that led to those options? The Catalyst just finished going on about how great Synthesis was, it could've just left those bridges down and not mentioned the other options.
There's not a whole lot about the endings that make sense to me.

Did you even read my posts?

Once again, the Crucible is FORCING the Catalyst to offer you these options. One of the things the Crucible is doing is acting like an AI shackle upon the Catalyst similar to the shackle on EDI before Joker unshackled her, as well as altering the Citadel to allow for the three options to take effect. The inconsistencies and questionable undertone of what the Catalyst says to you are a result of it struggling against those shackles.

You're making quite the leap there.  It is not mentioned anywhere that the crucible acts as a shackle.  The only thing that is mentioned is the fact that it's an energy source which provides the catalyst with new solutions.  Star Boy isn't forced to mention anything, although we are clearly lead to believe that Star Boy thinks these new solutions will work; it simply did not have the means to ennact these solutions before.

But let's assume you're right.  Simply because it is "shackled" does not mean it is forced to divulge any and all information.  It simply cannot carry out certains tasks on it's own.  More likely, as seen with EDI, if the catalyst is shackled it would be forced to WITHHOLD information (e.g. when you ask EDI about Cerberus in ME2), not divulge it.  The Catalyst's primary mission is to prevent the technological singularity; DESTROY contradicts the Catalyst's programming.  So AGAIN, why would it even mention destroy as a solution?

Yep, poor writing.

[Ticonderoga117]

Hackulator wrote...
Yes, he contradicts himself, and if you actually read my post, I give a possible explanation as to why.

Well first, I was telling someone else that. However, how can the Crucible force GlowBoy to do anything? He seems rather ok with things. If something that just got attached to me forced me to do something, I wouldn't be too thrilled about it.

Also, Shepard is the first person for billions of years to see GlowBoy. No one else even knew he was there. The Protheans thought something might be there directing the Reapers, but nothing concrete was ever found.

[Stump01]

Hackulator wrote...

[
Did you even read my posts?

Once again, the Crucible is FORCING the Catalyst to offer you these options. One of the things the Crucible is doing is acting like an AI shackle upon the Catalyst similar to the shackle on EDI before Joker unshackled her, as well as altering the Citadel to allow for the three options to take effect. The inconsistencies and questionable undertone of what the Catalyst says to you are a result of it struggling against those shackles.

How is that even possible?  No one knew the Catalyst even existed, how could they design a shackle for an AI that they didn't even know was there?  Cerberus put those shackles on EDI, they didn't just appear when they hooked her up to the Normandy.  I think the inconsistencies and questionable undertone of what the Catalyst said are either because it's insane or just from poor writing.

Edit: Oh, another thing, does the Crucible allow the Catalyst to withdraw those options if you shoot the hologram in the head?  Insanity or poor writing.

Modifié par Stump01, 01 juillet 2012 - 11:26 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Evo_9 wrote...
Would these options be available if the crucible had not docked? 

The answer is obviously no.

Due to lack of power, not, say, because the actual mechanisms weren't there.

[Evo_9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
Would these options be available if the crucible had not docked? 

The answer is obviously no.

Due to lack of power, not, say, because the actual mechanisms weren't there.

but the catalyst tells you the crucible changed it and provided new possibilities

it says nothing of a lack of power being the reason

so why would you ignore what the catalyst is telling you and come up with your own theory?? 

[Ticonderoga117]

Evo_9 wrote...
but the catalyst tells you the crucible changed it and provided new possibilities

it says nothing of a lack of power being the reason

so why would you ignore what the catalyst is telling you and come up with your own theory?? 

Because he contradicts himself again!

"The Crucible changed me, yadda yadda."

"The Crucible is just a battery."

He says both. So something is up here. I don't know what. I don't know why. All I can say is bad-writing.

[Hackulator]

Stump01 wrote...

How is that even possible?  No one knew the Catalyst even existed, how could they design a shackle for an AI that they didn't even know was there?  Cerberus put those shackles on EDI, they didn't just appear when they hooked her up to the Normandy.  I think the inconsistencies and questionable undertone of what the Catalyst said are either because it's insane or just from poor writing.

Edit: Oh, another thing, does the Crucible allow the Catalyst to withdraw those options if you shoot the hologram in the head?  Insanity or poor writing.

The beings that created the Catalyst knew about it. When it decided upon its "solution", they began to construct the Crucible to counteract it, but they didn't have time. Later Cycles discovered the plans and worked to complete them, but it was such a massive udnertaking that it had never been finished until now.

Allow me to cut off one argument before it happens. You might say, "how did the other cycles work on the Crucible, they didn't know what it did?" However, remember that during other Cycles the Reaper War lasted MUCH longer, sometimes hundreds of years in the case of the Prothean Cycle and others like it. Therefore, those cycles had MUCH more time to analyze the plans and figure out exactly what they did so they could add to it. Our cycle has only had a few months to analyze the Crucible.

Modifié par Hackulator, 01 juillet 2012 - 11:32 .

[Evo_9]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...
but the catalyst tells you the crucible changed it and provided new possibilities

it says nothing of a lack of power being the reason

so why would you ignore what the catalyst is telling you and come up with your own theory?? 

Because he contradicts himself again!

"The Crucible changed me, yadda yadda."

"The Crucible is just a battery."

He says both. So something is up here. I don't know what. I don't know why. All I can say is bad-writing.

why cant the crucible be both?? 

i know he says the crucible is little more than a power source...but who says it has to be one and not the other.

There is nothing contradictory in what the catalyst says as the crucible can be a power source as well as providing new options to how this power is distributed.

Modifié par Evo_9, 01 juillet 2012 - 11:35 .

[Stump01]

Hackulator wrote...

Stump01 wrote...

How is that even possible?  No one knew the Catalyst even existed, how could they design a shackle for an AI that they didn't even know was there?  Cerberus put those shackles on EDI, they didn't just appear when they hooked her up to the Normandy.  I think the inconsistencies and questionable undertone of what the Catalyst said are either because it's insane or just from poor writing.

Edit: Oh, another thing, does the Crucible allow the Catalyst to withdraw those options if you shoot the hologram in the head?  Insanity or poor writing.

The beings that created the Catalyst knew about it. When it decided upon its "solution", they began to construct the Crucible to counteract it, but they didn't have time. Later Cycles discovered the plans and worked to complete them, but it was such a massive udnertaking that it had never been finished until now.

Allow me to cut off one argument before it happens. You might say, "how did the other cycles work on the Crucible, they didn't know what it did?" However, remember that during other Cycles the Reaper War lasted MUCH longer, sometimes hundreds of years in the case of the Prothean Cycle and others like it. Therefore, those cycles had MUCH more time to analyze the plans and figure out exactly what they did so they could add to it. Our cycle has only had a few months to analyze the Crucible.

Wow, you can sure read between the lines.  I don't remember anything about that in the EC.

[Ticonderoga117]

Evo_9 wrote...
why cant the crucible be both?? 

i know he says the crucible is little more than a power source...but who says it has to be one and not the other.

There is nothing contradictory in what the catalyst says as the crucible can be a power source as well as providing new options to how this power is distributed.

I'd argue they are mutually exclusive because of "It's just a battery." Also because, the beam originates from the Citadel Tower where, I presume, the mechanisms for the endings are. (Sealed in spaces where only the Keepers can get too)

However, you could be very well right. I don't know.

[TheJiveDJ]

Stump01 wrote...

Hackulator wrote...

Stump01 wrote...

How is that even possible?  No one knew the Catalyst even existed, how could they design a shackle for an AI that they didn't even know was there?  Cerberus put those shackles on EDI, they didn't just appear when they hooked her up to the Normandy.  I think the inconsistencies and questionable undertone of what the Catalyst said are either because it's insane or just from poor writing.

Edit: Oh, another thing, does the Crucible allow the Catalyst to withdraw those options if you shoot the hologram in the head?  Insanity or poor writing.

The beings that created the Catalyst knew about it. When it decided upon its "solution", they began to construct the Crucible to counteract it, but they didn't have time. Later Cycles discovered the plans and worked to complete them, but it was such a massive udnertaking that it had never been finished until now.

Allow me to cut off one argument before it happens. You might say, "how did the other cycles work on the Crucible, they didn't know what it did?" However, remember that during other Cycles the Reaper War lasted MUCH longer, sometimes hundreds of years in the case of the Prothean Cycle and others like it. Therefore, those cycles had MUCH more time to analyze the plans and figure out exactly what they did so they could add to it. Our cycle has only had a few months to analyze the Crucible.[/b]

Wow, you can sure read between the lines.  I don't remember anything about that in the EC.

Dude, you're going way off into the realm of hypothesis.  Most of what you're talking about, while admittedly is interesting, is not mentioned anywhere in the entire trilogy.  We are trying to ascertain BioWare's intention with the Catalyst by using what CONCRETE knowledge we have.

Modifié par TheJiveDJ, 01 juillet 2012 - 11:49 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Hackulator wrote...

TheJiveDJ wrote...

We're all forgetting that one of the "solutions" (destroy) is no solution at all according to Star Boy. This is confirmed by His Bratty-ness when he mentions that eventually the pattern will repeat itself. So why in the name of all that is holy does Star Brat even mention destroy if the entire reason he exists is to prevent the pattern (ogranics vs synthetics) from repeating itself?

Yep, poor writing.

Stump01 wrote...
Sorry, that doesn't make any sense. If the Catalyst already controls the Reapers, how does Control come from the Crucible? Why does the Catalyst need Shepard to take over, just to stop the Reapers? Surely it wouldn't take an immense power source to read Shepard's brain and generate an AI based on him/her, why did that choice have to vaporize him/her?
Finally, if the choices came from the Crucible and not the Catalyst and the Catalyst didn't want you to Control or Destroy, why wouldn't it just not tell you about those options? After all, who raises the bridges that led to those options? The Catalyst just finished going on about how great Synthesis was, it could've just left those bridges down and not mentioned the other options.
There's not a whole lot about the endings that make sense to me.

Did you even read my posts?

Once again, the Crucible is FORCING the Catalyst to offer you these options. One of the things the Crucible is doing is acting like an AI shackle upon the Catalyst similar to the shackle on EDI before Joker unshackled her, as well as altering the Citadel to allow for the three options to take effect. The inconsistencies and questionable undertone of what the Catalyst says to you are a result of it struggling against those shackles.

Then why can the Catalyst disable these options on a whim?

If you shoot him with a gun, he turns them all off instantly and gets mad. This implies that he has the ability to turn them off any time he wants to, otherwise, once Shepard shot him and heard the "SO BE IT" speech, he could just wander over to the pipe and shoot it, or use any of the other options. But that's not how it works: once you make the Catalyst mad, he is able to prevent you from using the other options, clearly showing that he isn't forced to allow them.

Sorry, but the way that shooting the starkid works in the EC works actively disproves your theory.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 01 juillet 2012 - 11:49 .

[TheJiveDJ]

Unless of course this boils down to the Catalyst believing "we are ready" which I think is kinda lame.

[D24O]

I thought the Crucible was just a big battery that let the catalyst self modify.

[Hackulator]

There isn't enough concrete knowledge to know whats going on. There ARE unquestionable holes in whats going on, not necessarily things that invalidate the ending, but things that are just not explained. Therefore, the only option is to attempt to hypothesize different scenarios, and then checking them against what things we DO know to see if we can disprove them or show that they are incredibly unlikely. I put it to you all that nobody has managed to do so with my concept, and that it also fits in with basically all aspects of the EC.

[JamieCOTC]

"The Crucible changed me."

This is part of the avant garde vanilla ending and they kept it for the EC. Why, I don't know. The Crucible reprogrammed the Catalyst into accepting the three choices as viable because the galaxy was ready. In other words, united. The Catalyst is an AI and the Crucible reprogrammed it. The Catalyst said specifically, "The Crucible changed me." Yes, it's a leap, but I'm going w/ it. As for the "it's just a power source" line, I have to go w/ continuity error. How can something that is just a power source change the Catalyst? It can't unless it is something more than just a power source.

That or space magic.

[Eluril]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It took a deep voice to make some people realise that the Catalyst's true form probably isn't that of a little human boy that speaks English, so the fact that a lot of people don't realise that these aren't the Catalyst's options doesn't surprise me.