21 réponses à ce sujet

[BelgarathMTH]

Hi, somebody asked about this over on the bg.com forums, and I thought it was interesting enough to ask all the experts here, since I didn't know the answer.

Is it possible to do a no-reload or even a minimal reload run using no magic - no casters at all? Innate abilities like Inquisitor Dispel and True-Sight would be okay.

My first thought was a solo fighter-thief using UAI. Or maybe a wizard slayer (modded to be implemented correctly), berserker, or barbarian?

But what if we were to also consider wands and scrolls off-limits?

Either in a party or solo, has this ever been done? I think it may be possible in a party of non-casters where you don't care how many reloads you need until you get lucky dice-rolls.

I have no intention of trying to do this myself, because it sounds to me like an exercise in frustration. But the experts here often surprise me in what they can do, or have done, so I would ask, have any of you already done it? 

My guess is that this may be the ultimate challenge and actually impossible. Opinions?

[Grimwald the Wise]

I'm pretty sure that it has already been done. No doubt one of those who has done it will post sooner or later.

[Grond0]

If you're allowing magic weapons / armour and innate abilities this would be easy. A party of shorty berserkers would slice through everything in the game like a knife through butter. Without magic weapons and armour it would be more difficult though my guess is a no-reload would still be possible.

Solo no-reloads have been done with just melee characters, though they probably used magic items. There would be no need for wands and scrolls, but there are lots of magic items conferring immunities, doing damage, providing summons etc that make things easier for the solo character.

[BelgarathMTH]

Hmmm, very interesting. So berserker would be the way to go to try it. I guess a berserker or berserkers paired with an inquisitor would be even better. Thanks.

[corey_russell]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Hmmm, very interesting. So berserker would be the way to go to try it. I guess a berserker or berserkers paired with an inquisitor would be even better. Thanks.

Thought I mention that Dark-Lauron got a party of 6 monks and they made it all the way to the Throne of Bhaal, and even defeated Draconis. No casters there...some one else (I forget who now) had a party of 6 fighters, and they did real well too.

But I do agree, a party of berserkers with an inquisitor with them would mow down the opposition...

[The Potty 1]

I would go for a dwarven barbarian PC, add Korgan, and change some other NPC to a halfling fighter/thief using the level 1 npc mod, perhaps Jan. Mazzy as paladin might round this off nicely, but a smaller group would level faster and get their saving throws lower faster, and you don't really need her.
Of course dwarves, halflings, & gnomes get better saves to start, but for a no-reload you don't want to rely too much on lucky saves, so you need the right gear, and good timing of your enrage abilities.

The barbarian is a nice PC because (s)he ends up with mega hit points and 95% physical immunuty, assuming you borrow Jan's armour and use the flail of easthaven off-hand. Here's a post by Korgan_Rocks on the old forums:

It is now official: Barbarians are the best tanks in the entire game! I've played this game 22 times, with just about every class, but I have never had a tank like this. Who needs Iron/Stone Skins, Protection from Magical Weapons, Defensive Spin, Mirror Image, Blur etc etc when you have RESISTANCES? I've been messing around a lot, trying to find the ultimate item setup for resistances, and here it is:
20% elemental resistance from the Hell Trials, Dragon Helm/Helm of the Rock (25% elemental res), Ring of Fire Control(50% fire res), White Dragon Scale Armor(50% cold res), Cloak of Reflection(immunity to lightning dmg), Ring of Gaxx(immunity to poison/disease), Belt of Inertial Barrier (25% missile res, 50% magic dmg res), Defender of Easthaven (20% crushing, slashing, piercing res), and the 20% Barbarian's innate physical resistance.
Fire: 95%Cold: 95%Electricity: 100%Acid: 25% (75% with the Shadow Dragon Scales for fighting Draconis)Poison: 100%Disease: 100%Pysical dmg: 40% (80% with Hardiness)Magic: 25%Magic Damage: 50%Last, and definitely least, AC: -12
All these resistances combined with my Barbarians 250 hp make him unstoppable! He has to loose at least 100 hp before I even notice he's injured, and the last time that happened was... hm... I think it must have been back in SoA, actually.
For those fights with lots of opponents I send my Barbarian and Korgan (Red Dragon Scales and Ring of Fire Control) in among the enemies, while Viconia and Edwin cast Fire Storm and Incendiary Cloud... I know this isn't exactly a new tactic, but it's one that I've never really bothered with before... Silly me
This has probably been the most powerful party I've ever had, as well as the most evil. I'm using the "Triangle" party formation, with my Barbarian first, Korgan and Valen (F/T) second, and Edwin and Viconia third.
I know I've said earlier that the Berserker Rage is better than the Barbarian's, but I've changed my mind now. The Barbarian's Rage is perfect for fighting mages; as soon as a mage starts casting a spell at you, just activate the Rage and go after him. With Edwin and Kido dispelling the mage's protections, he'll die before the Rage ends. The Berserker on the other hand, has got to be more careful about his Rage, since he'll become Fatigued, which is not good if the mage has a bunch of buddies still alive... Besides, with 8 Rages a day, who cares if it only lasts 30 seconds?

Your barbarian should wear Jan's armour early on for the physical resistance, and perhaps always. Korgan can wear the dragon scales. Your fighter/thief may not be the heavy hitter of the group, but in vanilla (s)he is your instant mage-killer, so don't knock her. The planar prison is particularly good practice for this class, because you get the boots of speed, and can backstab then dissapear down a hole to hide.

[Matuse]

Game has be solo no-reloaded with all characters at one point or another.

So yes, it is quite possible to win with no casters.

[Grond0]

I think the title of the post implies somewhat more restrictions than just no casters and the OP mentions the possibility of no wands and scrolls. I agree that would not really be much of a drawback, but I was wondering about trying a rather more restricted approach with a party of berserkers.

If it weren't for enemies that have innate resistance to magic weapons I would be tempted to try a run with no magic equipment at all. However, given that not using magic weapons would probably be too frustrating I was thinking of limiting magic rather further. I was considering 2 possibilities:
1) to only use passive magic from items. That would allow immunities and resistances, but not anything you have to activate. Thus for instance you could wear the ring of earth control (to get AC benefit), but not use the charm elemental or stone to flesh effects. Similarly ring of Gaxx would still give very nice passive benefits, but not improved haste.
2) to only use magic weapons, no armour or other items. As above magic weapons would be limited to passive effects.

Any thoughts about the practicality of either of those?

Modifié par Grond0, 04 juillet 2012 - 05:03 .

[saros_shadow_follower]

A Barbarian cannot use Jansen's Adventurewear. However, if an Ascension-modded game is soloed by (or at least PC is) an evil Barbarian, that barbarian will receive 25% more permanent physical resistances in the pocket plane challenges. Also, there are the revised hell trials, with a neutral 'selfish' trial, which grants 30% permanent slashing damage resistance.

BTW, it's best for a warrior to wear Roranarch's horn. There are plenty of other items which grant elemental resistance, and it's not in the least needed to use them always - not all enemies use spells or abilities that inflict elemental/magical damage. Also, the Reflection shield is another good option in many fights.

And yes, successful no-reload warrior runs(no magic...well, very limited magic) had been done plenty of times.

[BBMorti]

I enjoyed Alisia_BH's solo bounty hunter no-reload back in the day. I completed the game with a solo assassin, too. However their UAI will allow use of magical scrolls, wand and magical gear usage are factors, too. It can be hard to draw the line I guess.

[Matuse]

If it weren't for enemies that have innate resistance to magic weapons I would be tempted to try a run with no magic equipment at all. However, given that not using magic weapons would probably be too frustrating

The list of monsters you'd be unable to kill under these circumstances would be enormous. Most tellingly, I can't think of how you would ever kill any vampire. Hard to beat the game when you can't get out of act 3 (or 6, if you side with Bodhi in A3).

Modifié par Matuse, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:03 .

[Grond0]

Indeed. I toyed with the idea of including bounty hunters to use traps to help with this, but decided I should just stick with berserkers - hence the need for magic weapons.

I am currently attempting a no-magic run in BG1 with 6 berserkers (the only obstable I can foresee there is having to get past the basilisks at the Candlekeep tombs), but those restrictions will be eased if they get into BG2.

[The Potty 1]

@Matuse Turn undead? Pity the inquisitor can't do that.

@Saros D'oh on the Adventurewear. I think when my barbie soloed ascension he borrowed the human flesh armor from Viccy.

@Grond0 only using passive effects would be perfectly doable, I hardly ever remember to use character or item abilities anyway. This does rule out any summons though, which makes it tougher. Not using any magic items apart from weapons would be really hard. If you take my boots of speed I'll have to drop the fighter/thief, and go for a barbarian, Korgan, and either inquisitor or undead slayer.

EDIT and actually I'd use the multiplayer thing to roll all three characters, so I can max their stats.

Modifié par The Potty 1, 05 juillet 2012 - 10:04 .

[AnonymousHero]

Matuse wrote...
Game has be solo no-reloaded with all characters at one point or another.

I don't think anyone has ever pulled off and documented a Transmuter solo no-reload. Alesia_BH attempted one as far as I recall, but didn't complete it.

Or am I mistaken?

(Of course, that's not no-magic, but if someone wants a challenge...)

[Grond0]

I've read at some point on the forums an analysis of which characters have won the game solo. I'm pretty sure there were one or two others that have not succeeded - I think totemic druid was one of these. Not sure about monk, although I'm sure you know a lot more about that class than me, Anonymous Hero!

[AnonymousHero]

Grond0 wrote...

I've read at some point on the forums an analysis of which characters have won the game solo. I'm pretty sure there were one or two others that have not succeeded - I think totemic druid was one of these. Not sure about monk, although I'm sure you know a lot more about that class than me, Anonymous Hero!

Yeah, you're right, Grond0, Totemic Druid was another one. IIRC there was basically no possible(*) way to defeat vanilla Melissan with that character.

As for Monk: I'm not entirely sure... basically everything up to Melissan should be doable, but it's been so long since I last fought vanilla Mel that I can't be sure she could be defeated by a solo monk. (There's also the issue of Imprisonment, but I think that can be avoided if you're just going by plotline.)

(*) As in: It would require absurd luck and what with Melissan being the final fight nobody would have the fortitude/stamina to actually attempt enough games to really do it.

Modifié par AnonymousHero, 05 juillet 2012 - 07:57 .

[Alesia_BH]

AnonymousHero wrote...
No one has ever pulled off and documented a Transmuter solo no-reload. Alesia_BH attempted one as far as I recall, but didn't complete it.

Quick Note: Transmuter Alastria was never a No Reload challenger: she was entered in the old Ascension Solo Challenge (Questpack+Tactics Parts+Ascension). She did finish, but there was a long pause at The Throne due to a fried laptop.

I'd be loathe to try No Reloading Alastria in my current SCS+Ascension setup. She could handle vanilla and Ascension sans SCS (with practice).

Quick Note II: As for the Totemic Solo, they apparently have issues against Vanilla Mel. A few players who seemed skilled with the class reported that they couldn't finish without using their Bag of Holding to recharge the Ring of the Ram. I can't comment in full since I've never tried it and haven't done vanilla Mel in over a decade.

I'm pretty certain a Totemic could solo the Ascension ending sans SCS (No Reload with practice): I strongly suspect that the Totemic solo is one of those rare cases where Vanilla Mel is actually harder. Ascensions+SCS would be tricky.


As for the thread topic, I agree that the answer hinges on how you define "magic."  


Best,

A. 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 07 juillet 2012 - 04:40 .

[AnonymousHero]

Alesia_BH wrote...

AnonymousHero wrote...
No one has ever pulled off and documented a Transmuter solo no-reload. Alesia_BH attempted one as far as I recall, but didn't complete it.

Quick Note: Transmuter Alastria was never a No Reload challenger: she was entered in the old Ascension Solo Challenge (Questpack+Tactics Parts+Ascension). She did finish, but there was a long pause at The Throne due to a fried laptop.

I'd be loathe to try No Reloading Alastria in my current SCS+Ascension setup. She could handle vanilla and Ascension sans SCS (with practice).

OK, thanks for the correction (and welcome back!).

Damn fuzzy memory.

Alesia_BH wrote...
Quick Note II: As for the Totemic Solo, they apparently have issues against Vanilla Mel. A few players who seemed skilled with the class reported that they couldn't finish without using their Bag of Holding to recharge the Ring of the Ram. I can't comment in full since I've never tried it and haven't done vanilla Mel in over a decade.

Right -- exploits do change things. I wonder if exploits qualify as "magic"? 

[Alesia_BH]

AnonymousHero wrote...

Right -- exploits do change things. I wonder if exploits qualify as "magic"? 

[polytope]

Alesia_BH wrote...
Quick Note II: As for the Totemic Solo, they apparently have issues against Vanilla Mel. A few players who seemed skilled with the class reported that they couldn't finish without using their Bag of Holding to recharge the Ring of the Ram. I can't comment in full since I've never tried it and haven't done vanilla Mel in over a decade.

I'm pretty sure that other druid kits can only (reliably) beat Mel thanks to another exploit, the "dispellable paws" bug which allows a decent number of attacks (with the sling of seeking) when shapeshifted - without this it's too difficult to interrupt Mel healing herself (and she'll damage the druid, even at range, faster than you can damage her).

It's possible with a single class cleric due to their better equipment choice (flail of ages to slow her, reflection shield to negate her darts) and combat buffs, but if Mel manages to summon a beholder all buffs are gone and the cleric will most probably fail as well.

Modifié par polytope, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:40 .

[Alesia_BH]

That may be the case Polytope. As mentioned, I can't speak from experience here: I've soloed an Avenger in Ascension and that's it.

I'm aware that others have singled out the Totemic as being particularly problematic in vanilla but I can't really add more than that. I'll note that your comment could of course explain why the Totemic was reportedly the troublesome one though- especially if the player in question was comfortable with dispellable paws but not Bag of Holding recharge.

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 09 juillet 2012 - 10:00 .

[ussnorway]

Is that because druids cap at 25? Yes I know they keep levelling but they don't get any better after that... I remember my Avenger climbed to 19 before she changed to Fighter for the second half of the game but that was more because of my wanting to take advantage of the cheap fighter levels whilst playing solo than actually needing the THAC0 to win.