201 réponses à ce sujet

[vixvicco]

Fenris' comments made me paranoid, but I suppose his hatred for Mages can't be used as evidence of a sociey failing once Mages are set free.

[caradoc2000]

It works just fine in Tevinter where mages rule.

[SirGladiator]

I suppose it all depends on who the leader of the mages is in that scenario, same for the Templars if they won. If it was a good person things would be a whole lot better than if it was a bad/power-hungry type. In theory, 'winning' the war should simply mean winning freedom, which would mean that society wouldnt really change very much, there would simply be more free people in it. Of course there would be the fear, paranoia, etc. on one hand, and the occasional powerful serial-killer mage on the loose on the other hand, so plenty of new negatives to go with the positives. But on the whole, society itself would probably work in a pretty similar way, if the mages won and their leader wasn't some kind of crazy/evil sort of person bent on claiming power and using it in a negative way.

[vixvicco]

SirGladiator wrote...

I suppose it all depends on who the leader of the mages is in that scenario, same for the Templars if they won. If it was a good person things would be a whole lot better than if it was a bad/power-hungry type. In theory, 'winning' the war should simply mean winning freedom, which would mean that society wouldnt really change very much, there would simply be more free people in it. Of course there would be the fear, paranoia, etc. on one hand, and the occasional powerful serial-killer mage on the loose on the other hand, so plenty of new negatives to go with the positives. But on the whole, society itself would probably work in a pretty similar way, if the mages won and their leader wasn't some kind of crazy/evil sort of person bent on claiming power and using it in a negative way.

Good point. I believe it will more of a task getting people used to the idea of free mages than even winning the war itself.

[MisterJB]

caradoc2000 wrote...

It works just fine in Tevinter where mages rule.

Blood mages kill each other in duels on the street. Just imagine the collateral damage from magisters with the same proficiency for magic as Corypheus battling as well as how many people these blood mages might bleed dry in desperation.

[Dave of Canada]

Mage tyranny or the commoners rise up against the mages and re-imprison them with harsher conditions or outright execute them.

[WotanAnubis]

Depends on how the mages win the war.

If the mages have to do it all on their own, they'll likely institute something of a magocracy because allowing anyone else in charge could get them locked up in the Circles again.

If influential, non-magical factions throw their lot in with the mages, I don't think much will change. The power of the Chantry in magical matters will probably be reduced and mages will likely become a more common sight out in the open. Some areas probably will end up being ruled by mages, but most of those will probably be because the natural heir to whatever throne just happened to be a mage.

[Fallstar]

Do the mages want to be in control or just be free?

Either way, if people can't accept having mages in normal society and start to persecute them, then I guess they'd be forced into becoming another Tevinter Imperium.

[Sir JK]

The biggest problem overall is that individually the average mage is more powerful than the average non-mage. While how mages win the war matters greatly to the society that it creates, the mages that fought will without a doubt still remember a society that feared them. If they have any sense in their heads they will hold back and respect the non-mages.

Subsequent generations however...

What society looks like after the mages win will depend on a question:
Will the mages agree to be equals of people less capable than they are?

[EricHVela]

Sir JK wrote...

The biggest problem overall is that individually the average mage is more powerful than the average non-mage. While how mages win the war matters greatly to the society that it creates, the mages that fought will without a doubt still remember a society that feared them. If they have any sense in their heads they will hold back and respect the non-mages.

Subsequent generations however...

What society looks like after the mages win will depend on a question:
Will the mages agree to be equals of people less capable than they are?

^This.

If the mages want equality, a "win" is finding a balanced peace with their oppositions.

If the mages want to be recognized for their special gifts that mundanes do not have, a "win" is likely the subjugating of their oppositions.

Thrask states that the Templars were supposed to protect the mages and not imprison them. Meredith seems to have it backwards, imprisoning them without due cause to pro-actively protect everyone else instead.

While Thrask's interpretation seems to be a cooperative stance, another interpretation is that the Templars are supposed to protect the mages from themselves by maintaining a strict control over them. (Cullen seems to agree to this second interpretation at first.)

I can actually see Templars with Thrask's view assisting the mages in a battle, even against other Templars and the Chantry. (After all, he did assist the mages in battle in certain versions of Dragon Age: Kirkwall. Even Cullen will do that in certain versions of the story.) If this happens, I see mages being more amicable towards peaceful equality over subjugating others.

[DPSSOC]

Well most likely if the mages win they'll be content to set up something like Genosha (X Men). A nation ruled and almost exclusively populated by mages. Eventually (maybe years maybe centuries) this nation, as all nations, will seek to expand it's influence at which point we'll find out just how ineffective conventional troops are against a mage army supplemented by demons. If the common people are lucky this will be delayed because the mage nation (let's call it Retnivet) will side with Tevinter against the Qunari (the greatest threat to their freedom).

The real questions are how will this new mage nation choose to rule; will they adopt the power based infighting of Tevinter or maintain the more democratic rule of the Fraternities? How will they view non-mages, and how will they respond to attempts to recreate the Templar Order as a means for other nations to defend themselves?

[EricHVela]

DPSSOC wrote...

Well most likely if the mages win they'll be content to set up something like Genosha (X Men). A nation ruled and almost exclusively populated by mages. Eventually (maybe years maybe centuries) this nation, as all nations, will seek to expand it's influence at which point we'll find out just how ineffective conventional troops are against a mage army supplemented by demons. If the common people are lucky this will be delayed because the mage nation (let's call it Retnivet) will side with Tevinter against the Qunari (the greatest threat to their freedom).

The real questions are how will this new mage nation choose to rule; will they adopt the power based infighting of Tevinter or maintain the more democratic rule of the Fraternities? How will they view non-mages, and how will they respond to attempts to recreate the Templar Order as a means for other nations to defend themselves?

Such a nation will face the problem of parents having mundane children.

Will having children with magic abilities be a status symbol? Will people with mundane children have an equal voice? EDIT: What if powerful families have a series of mundane children?

Mages are also not completely invulnerable and not skilled in all arts. They will likely rely on mundanes for many things. Will they enslave them?

Tevinter shows one possibility. Thrask proposes another option.

To iterate: If Templars like Thrask (and other mundanes like Carver [or Hawke]) assist the mages, I think they'll less-likely isolate themselves from mundanes.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 02 juillet 2012 - 03:19 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

It wouldn't.

[DPSSOC]

ReggarBlane wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Well most likely if the mages win they'll be content to set up something like Genosha (X Men). A nation ruled and almost exclusively populated by mages. Eventually (maybe years maybe centuries) this nation, as all nations, will seek to expand it's influence at which point we'll find out just how ineffective conventional troops are against a mage army supplemented by demons. If the common people are lucky this will be delayed because the mage nation (let's call it Retnivet) will side with Tevinter against the Qunari (the greatest threat to their freedom).

The real questions are how will this new mage nation choose to rule; will they adopt the power based infighting of Tevinter or maintain the more democratic rule of the Fraternities? How will they view non-mages, and how will they respond to attempts to recreate the Templar Order as a means for other nations to defend themselves?

Such a nation will face the problem of parents having mundane children.

Will having children with magic abilities be a status symbol? Will people with mundane children have an equal voice? EDIT: What if powerful families have a series of mundane children?

Mages are also not completely invulnerable and not skilled in all arts. They will likely rely on mundanes for many things. Will they enslave them?

Tevinter shows one possibility. Thrask proposes another option.

To iterate: If Templars like Thrask (and other mundanes like Carver [or Hawke]) assist the mages, I think they'll less-likely isolate themselves from mundanes.

The problem is they aren't going to fight a war for freedom from mundane oppression and then meekly submit to mundane rule.  That's why I suspect they'll establish an isolated mage nation, a haven for their kind so they don't have to again suffer under the rule of another, or have their studies hindered by ignorant fear.  It's similar to what the Dalish want but after a victory in war against the Templars the Mages would actually have the means of establishing it.  When the dust settles and the war's over the Mages issue terms to get them land to call their own (similar to how the Dales were set up).

I'm not suggesting the mages will completely isolate themselves like the elves did, anymore than Fereldan isolated itself from Orlais, but it's highly unlikely they're just going to blend into the other nations, some will surely but I don't think it will be the majority.

Whether or not mundane children will be looked on as lesser or if they'll enslave mundanes to do work for them falls uder how they choose to rule.  As for skills the mages don't possess the war is probably going to take years durring which the mages will either have to pick up a lot of skills, or enlist mundanes to help them (willingly or not is again up to the mages).

[EricHVela]

DPSSOC wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Well most likely if the mages win they'll be content to set up something like Genosha (X Men). A nation ruled and almost exclusively populated by mages. Eventually (maybe years maybe centuries) this nation, as all nations, will seek to expand it's influence at which point we'll find out just how ineffective conventional troops are against a mage army supplemented by demons. If the common people are lucky this will be delayed because the mage nation (let's call it Retnivet) will side with Tevinter against the Qunari (the greatest threat to their freedom).

The real questions are how will this new mage nation choose to rule; will they adopt the power based infighting of Tevinter or maintain the more democratic rule of the Fraternities? How will they view non-mages, and how will they respond to attempts to recreate the Templar Order as a means for other nations to defend themselves?

Such a nation will face the problem of parents having mundane children.

Will having children with magic abilities be a status symbol? Will people with mundane children have an equal voice? EDIT: What if powerful families have a series of mundane children?

Mages are also not completely invulnerable and not skilled in all arts. They will likely rely on mundanes for many things. Will they enslave them?

Tevinter shows one possibility. Thrask proposes another option.

To iterate: If Templars like Thrask (and other mundanes like Carver [or Hawke]) assist the mages, I think they'll less-likely isolate themselves from mundanes.

The problem is they aren't going to fight a war for freedom from mundane oppression and then meekly submit to mundane rule.  That's why I suspect they'll establish an isolated mage nation, a haven for their kind so they don't have to again suffer under the rule of another, or have their studies hindered by ignorant fear.  It's similar to what the Dalish want but after a victory in war against the Templars the Mages would actually have the means of establishing it.  When the dust settles and the war's over the Mages issue terms to get them land to call their own (similar to how the Dales were set up).

I'm not suggesting the mages will completely isolate themselves like the elves did, anymore than Fereldan isolated itself from Orlais, but it's highly unlikely they're just going to blend into the other nations, some will surely but I don't think it will be the majority.

Whether or not mundane children will be looked on as lesser or if they'll enslave mundanes to do work for them falls uder how they choose to rule.  As for skills the mages don't possess the war is probably going to take years durring which the mages will either have to pick up a lot of skills, or enlist mundanes to help them (willingly or not is again up to the mages).

Nobody said that the mages would "meekly submit to mundane rule." You seem to be assuming that there are only two options: rule or be ruled.

Why not a senate of mages and mundanes to rule equally?

[GavrielKay]

No sane mage would set up another society like Tevinter. Duels in the streets aren't only bad for the bystanders after all.

I think a key here is that for the common rabble, life would be unlikely to change. Even mages need to eat, dress and live under a roof. Farmers, merchants, craftsman etc will have a place in every society and that place will be pretty much constant across all but the worst of governments.

I think it would be very difficult for mages to really set themselves up as an independent state. With mundanes being born to mages and mages being born to mundanes... how could you really separate the two?

[Melca36]

vixvicco wrote...

Fenris' comments made me paranoid, but I suppose his hatred for Mages can't be used as evidence of a sociey failing once Mages are set free.

Um...comparing Fenris's experience and assuming all mages are like Tevinter is just wrong.

Not ever mage wants power.

Society is NOT the same in Tevinter as it is in other countries.

[DPSSOC]

ReggarBlane wrote...
Nobody said that the mages would "meekly submit to mundane rule." You seem to be assuming that there are only two options: rule or be ruled.

There are.  In any given culture, of any given nation, at any given point in time those have always been the options.  You are the ruler or the subject, the master or the slave.  Now don't get me wrong we've made some great progress IRL, the relationship is a lot more fluid than it used to be and the gap between the two isn't nearly as wide as it once was but it's still there.  We still have people with power who dictate what those without do.

ReggarBlane wrote...
Why not a senate of mages and mundanes to rule equally?

A fair suggestion to which I ask two questions; Why would an established mundane nation agree to such a set up?  Why would a nation newly formed by Mages seeking to escape mundane oppression agree to such a set up?

[MisterJB]

ReggarBlane wrote...
Why not a senate of mages and mundanes to rule equally?

Because mundanes will just fear the mages are using Blood Magic to control the minds of their senators and because not so scupulous mages might do just that.

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
A fair suggestion to which I ask two questions; Why would an established mundane nation agree to such a set up?  Why would a nation newly formed by Mages seeking to escape mundane oppression agree to such a set up?

Wars often end in government upsets. 

I guess the primary reason current govt's would agree to split power with the mages is to have their support in the future.  Game lore says the mages have been important in defeating the Qunari invaders in the past.  If such an agreement could be reached at all, I would suspect it would be because existing govt's would rather have mages with them than against them.

[EricHVela]

GavrielKay wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
A fair suggestion to which I ask two questions; Why would an established mundane nation agree to such a set up?  Why would a nation newly formed by Mages seeking to escape mundane oppression agree to such a set up?

Wars often end in government upsets. 

I guess the primary reason current govt's would agree to split power with the mages is to have their support in the future.  Game lore says the mages have been important in defeating the Qunari invaders in the past.  If such an agreement could be reached at all, I would suspect it would be because existing govt's would rather have mages with them than against them.

^This.

It's not so black-and-white.

Also, DPSSOC has already assumed that the mages would form their own nation. That is not certain, either, especially if mundanes show how they can genuinely be allies during their fight.

[DPSSOC]

ReggarBlane wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
A fair suggestion to which I ask two questions; Why would an established mundane nation agree to such a set up?  Why would a nation newly formed by Mages seeking to escape mundane oppression agree to such a set up?

Wars often end in government upsets. 

I guess the primary reason current govt's would agree to split power with the mages is to have their support in the future.  Game lore says the mages have been important in defeating the Qunari invaders in the past.  If such an agreement could be reached at all, I would suspect it would be because existing govt's would rather have mages with them than against them.

^This.

It's not so black-and-white.

Also, DPSSOC has already assumed that the mages would form their own nation. That is not certain, either, especially if mundanes show how they can genuinely be allies during their fight.

I assume the mages would form their own nation because it makes the most sense for them.  Attempting to incorporate into existing mundane societies mages will run into all of the problems they face now; fear of the populace and the ignorance of mundanes hindering their studies.  Establishing a mage nation achieves all the benefits of the Circle without the mages having to bow to, or be overly concerned with, non-mage opinions of their work so long as they are able to contain any fallout.  They can engage in real magical study without having someone who couldn't possibly understand what they're doing looking over their shoulder.  Even your senate solution wouldn't give mages free reign.

Note that this does not assume hostility between the mage nation and all others, that will come eventually as they behave like any other nation, but it's not an immediate certainty.  Like I said they'll probably choose to deal with the Qunari on their own since they are the most immediate threat to their freedom.  The usual motivations apply (common interests, common threats, etc.) for cooperation, I'm not arguing such is impossible, but it makes the most sense for the mages, who have just fought a war for their freedom, to seek their own nation as the surest means to secure that freedom.  Any nation they join, any government they submit to, even in joint rule, may choose to lock them away again and bring the Templars back, that's a very real danger for them.

[GavrielKay]

DPSSOC wrote...
I assume the mages would form their own nation because it makes the most sense for them.

I disagree.

It might sound like a good idea to idealist mages to have their very own country and make their own laws, but there's a lot more to running a country than getting to do your latest magical experiment.  I think it would be smarter for the mages - who would be almost entirely naive of statecraft - to join one or more other governmets.

As a stand-alone nation, they'd have to work out trade agreements, standing armies, foreign relations...  I just don't see it.  I'm not saying integration would be easy, but I don't see how it can be avoided.  Even if mages carve out a nation where they rule, non-mages would almost certainly be wanted and needed as residents to provide labor the mages can't or won't want to do.

If you made Alistair King in Ferelden, that would be a good place for mages to go.  He was very sympathetic to mages in my playthrough.

[cJohnOne]

I think the Mages would take over and enslave everyone. The Chantry would be upturned and rewritten. I'm not sure how that would turn out.