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[thats1evildude]

Besides those templars who don't believe in slaughtering the mages wholesale, I think the Mage-Templar War will also be divided along the lines of "mages who want to be free" and "mages who believe that freedom will only come from ruling others." We know those elements exist — Tarohne was a prime example, as are the Resolutionists. While they may be in the minority, they also aren't constrained by notions of morality and can resort to means that others would balk at, which evens out the two sides.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 03 juillet 2012 - 07:02 .

[Blacklash93]

Just like Tevinter if not mad, rampaging demons. Then this likley becomes a cycle.

It's not that the mages are particularly at fault as people; any poplulation with that power would do the same. Power corrupts with little exception and throwing posession into the mix only makes it worse.

That said the Circle is broken as it is and so is complete freedom for Mages. Just as mages will abuse their power they will always rebel against captivity like the Circle and eventually they will succeed. I hope some kind of compromise in the form of a new system can be made to end the war. Justinia was looking for reform, I know.

from magisters with the same proficiency for magic as Corypheus

Corypheus puts the greatest Magisters to shame. This is stated almost word for word in the codex and it's most likely due to his darkspawn blood. Just pointing that out.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 03 juillet 2012 - 07:10 .

[thats1evildude]

GavrielKay wrote...

From all accounts in game, cultures who treat their mages with cautious respect rather than loathing and fear don't have as much trouble with abominations.  Even Tevinter, for all its horrors, doesn't appear to be over-run by abominations.

Even though they're probably the equivalent of bored small-town sheriffs, the Tevinter Imperium does maintain its own Templar order. Fenris confirms that they act to put down abominations and the like.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 03 juillet 2012 - 07:32 .

[GavrielKay]

thats1evildude wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

From all accounts in game, cultures who treat their mages with cautious respect rather than loathing and fear don't have as much trouble with abominations.  Even Tevinter, for all its horrors, doesn't appear to be over-run by abominations.

Even though they're probably the equivalent of bored small-town sheriffs, the Tevinter Imperium does maintain its own Templar order. Fenris confirms that they act to put down abominations and the like.

My thinking on Tevinter Templars is that as they would be taking their orders from the Black Divine they would be more enforcers and cleanup crews rather than jailors and guards.  I could be wrong of course, we don't really have a lot of explanation of what they do in Tevinter.

The big thing for me is that if Tevinter is run by seemingly morally bankrupt mages who thrive on power and cruelty - the exact sort of mage that by Chantry claim should be a huge risk for becoming an abomoniation - then how does Tevinter as a nation still exist?  Mages given all but free reign to be power hungry monsters who bleed out slaves for an extra speck of power should be possessed in droves.  But apparently they aren't. 

However many horror stories we hear about Tevinter, they aren't about mass possessions and abominations everywhere destroying everything.

This leads me to believe that being a monstrous power hungry blood mage isn't actually a recipe for possession as the Chantry claims.  In fact, perhaps it really isn't all that easy to get possessed and the more strong willed and determined a mage is, the more resistant they are to possession.  After all, Morrigan isn't a poster child for charity, but she isn't fooled for a second by the demon in the Broken Circle quest in DA:O.

In that case, the Chantry's raising of mages to believe themselves to be too dangerous to trust and hated and feared is actually making matters worse.

[Abispa]

Tevinter appears to have a social caste system where the mages of the rich and powerful rule. Poorer mages, including Fenris' sister, are slaves and serve their ruling magister. It takes more than magic to make a magister, it takes money and prestige as well.

And since blood magic is widely used in the Imperium, it is likely that many poorer mages are used as sacrifices for more powerful magic rituals, since demons seem far more interested in mage blood than anything else.

I imagine the Templars are used by the Black Divine to keep the poorer and untrained mages (and their abominations) in check, and perhaps making sure no uppity lower class mage gets too powerful.

[Dave of Canada]

Tevinter takes mage children away from their parents to teach magic, which leads to them either growing up being the most powerful and stepping on the other mages to reach the top or being stepped on because they're not powerful enough.

Templar seem to turn a blind eye to the public mage battles and the commoners being sacrificed for amusement, though they still involve themselves when the mage goes too far or becomes an abomination.

Rivain co-exists with mages but they're revered by the commonfolk and they intentionally turn themselves into abominations, Most--though not all--of the commoners view mages and abominations as nothing more than a force of nature and rebuild and mourn their dead after an abomination destroys their communities.

Dalish travel in small groups and restrict how many mages can travel per clan to limit any potential destruction, thus allowing them to have clearer control of what's happening to them. Not viable for larger groups of individuals or nations. Wardens follow the same thing if the cleaning man who was supposed to be recruited is to be believed.

So, I'd imagine two possibilities.

"Rivain" emulation:
Mages rise up and overthrow the Chantry and Inquisition, they become "servants" of the Monarchy or are allowed to "live" free. Those living "free" will live in a nation of constant war, as other nations which see mages as valuable assets will be capable of waging war and conquering every nation which views mages as "people".

All the while, they face bitter resentment from the common-folk who struggle against the mages after generations of dogma have been implanted into their minds through constant Chantry influence.

Mage homes / buildings / ect will be burned down and the mages will either tolerate it or "teach" the commoners a lesson--which wouldn't be taken well by people, causing a vicious cycle until the mages either step on the commoners and try to emulate Tevinter 2.0 in this regard or the commoners rise up.

Imagine most Monarchs still won't put mages in any position of power and keep an eye on most of them, just in-case they try to overthrow him.

"Tevinter" emulation:
Mages overthrow the Chantry, Inquisition and the Monarch, taking full control of the nation and waging war not only against the Templar but the nation and it's people. Almost impossible odds considering the Monarch would likely assist the Inquisition / Chantry before allowing himself to be defeated and you've got the nation's armies and people who'd struggle against them--in addition to the other nations which oppose mages which would ally with them.

Hypothetically, if they were successful, they'd stand on top of the common folk and rule them with an iron-fist--protecting the mages from the commoners which will have sky-high resentment, though the mages would be allowed to use the full extent of their magics to deal with the situation.

Tevinter would probably involve themselves in their baby years of politics, allowing them to influence the nation towards assisting them.

---

The average idea of "mage freedom" which most posters have is impossible.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 juillet 2012 - 10:30 .

[LobselVith8]

caradoc2000 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

It works just fine in Tevinter where mages rule.

I can imagine more than a few mages would wish to avoid emulating Tevinter.

How many mages you meet in DA2 that aren't blood mages? Not many. Even Hawke can be BM.

Templars can nullify the abilities of a mage, unless they use blood magic. If you wanted to avoid getting raped (like Alain) or tortured (like some of the Circle mages Hawke speaks to) or made tranquil (like Karl), then blood magic is a valid choice. Merrill is a blood mage, and she is 100% against selling Fenris back to slavery, so blood mages don't equal Tevinter.

Even the lore reads "Some whisper that the Order's relentless hunt has driven good intended apostates to blood magic in their desperation to survive and keep their freedom."

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Most--though not all--of the commoners view mages and abominations as nothing more than a force of nature and rebuild and mourn their dead after an abomination destroys their communities

Whoa whoa whoa.... hold up a minute there.

I do not remember this being stated ever.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Magisters enslave mages and nonmages alike. You can consider that there are other societies with free mages that don't try to emulate Tevinter: the Dalish clans, the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, and the seers and witches in the Kingdom of Rivain. Free mages don't mean another Imperium. The mage protagonist can ask for the emancipation of his people when he becomes the Hero of Ferelden. The historical mage Aldenon co-founded Ferelden with the intent of creating a kingdom where all men and women would be free; he saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery.

All of your examples of "free mages" except of Tevinter are not large, developed countries and free mage systems used trought. In all the cases of "free mages" the free mages are a handfull living in the wilderness.

For the dalish it's 1-2 mages per clan, living in remote forests away from humans..and some clans fall prey to demons because of that.
Chasind are similar.
With Rivian, they have Circles where most of their mages are, the witches are like the dalish - a few of them living a hermit life in a forest away from the rest of humanity.

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the Dales, and they didn't emulate Tevinter, so I don't agree that free mages automatically mean another Imperium. I always see Tevinter as the argument against mages, but I dont see the point in trying to claim that free mages automatically mean another Imperium will arise when history has proved otherwise.

You clearly don't agree with mages gaining autonomy from the Chantry or the templars, and I disagree. Even the ruler of Ferelden can proclaim that mages have earned the right to govern themselves.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 juillet 2012 - 11:48 .

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Most--though not all--of the commoners view mages and abominations as nothing more than a force of nature and rebuild and mourn their dead after an abomination destroys their communities

Whoa whoa whoa.... hold up a minute there.

I do not remember this being stated ever.

Perhaps "destroy" was a wrong word, more like they rampage a bit and then leave / get killed and people rebuild. Gaider had come into a thread once and mentioned that Rivain's abominations destroy things and people view it as a force of nature and live with it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 04 juillet 2012 - 12:19 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ReggarBlane wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
A powerful enough mage has the potential to burn down an entire country. Wasn't it Cullen who said that?

The qunari are religious zealots with expansionists goals. They are dangerous but so is the Empress of Orlais who would have opressed Ferelden through marriage.
But, ultimately, neither of them can just release a Fireball in the middle of the market because they had a bad day.

And we know Cullen fears mages. We also know he has little experience with them. His first errant abomination was at the Circle crisis in Ferelden. He had never seen one before.

Cullen still can change his mind, though (as I mentioned).

No. If a mage could do that, it would have been done already. That's just Cullen being paranoid by his own limited experience.

Yes. A mundane can kill everyone in a market because they had a bad day.

Actually, mages beign that dangerous is a canonical fact.
Mages are responsible for some of the greatest disasters in TheDas history. Even weaker abominations have been known to kill hunderds. It's in the codex.
We've seen what powerfull mages can do. Taking over entire villages. Even a child almost managed to destroy Redcliff, which is far bettr defended than any common village.
DA: Journies mentions an abomination that took over and destroyed a city.


So no. A regular Joe isn't as dangerous as a mage. Not even close.
A mundane can be easily stopped.
A good-natured mundane is not dangerous.
A mage - even the best and kindest one - can still turn into an abomination.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GavrielKay wrote...

The big thing for me is that if Tevinter is run by seemingly morally bankrupt mages who thrive on power and cruelty - the exact sort of mage that by Chantry claim should be a huge risk for becoming an abomoniation - then how does Tevinter as a nation still exist?  Mages given all but free reign to be power hungry monsters who bleed out slaves for an extra speck of power should be possessed in droves.  But apparently they aren't. 

I'd guess thesame way nations that are located in parts of world home to frequent natural disasters do.
Humans breed fast, there's a lot of them and people suck it up and go on.

[Plaintiff]

The outcome would depend entirely on the individuals involved. There is no possible way to know and anyone who claims otherwise is speaking nonsense.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Magisters enslave mages and nonmages alike. You can consider that there are other societies with free mages that don't try to emulate Tevinter: the Dalish clans, the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, and the seers and witches in the Kingdom of Rivain. Free mages don't mean another Imperium. The mage protagonist can ask for the emancipation of his people when he becomes the Hero of Ferelden. The historical mage Aldenon co-founded Ferelden with the intent of creating a kingdom where all men and women would be free; he saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery.

All of your examples of "free mages" except of Tevinter are not large, developed countries and free mage systems used trought. In all the cases of "free mages" the free mages are a handfull living in the wilderness.

For the dalish it's 1-2 mages per clan, living in remote forests away from humans..and some clans fall prey to demons because of that.
Chasind are similar.
With Rivian, they have Circles where most of their mages are, the witches are like the dalish - a few of them living a hermit life in a forest away from the rest of humanity.

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the Dales, and they didn't emulate Tevinter, so I don't agree that free mages automatically mean another Imperium. I always see Tevinter as the argument against mages, but I dont see the point in trying to claim that free mages automatically mean another Imperium will arise when history has proved otherwise.

You clearly don't agree with mages gaining autonomy from the Chantry or the templars, and I disagree. Even the ruler of Ferelden can proclaim that mages have earned the right to govern themselves.

The rulers procalamtion did what? That's right - diddly squat.

Clearly, the "good" systems with freee mages we know anything about work on a completely different model AND scale and are NOT applicable to society at large.
We know next to nothing about the old Dales, so calling it a good system is a fallacy at best. It's an unknown and as such cannot be used as an argument for either side.

Free mages will not work. It CANNOT work.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:32 .

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Magisters enslave mages and nonmages alike. You can consider that there are other societies with free mages that don't try to emulate Tevinter: the Dalish clans, the Chasind Wilders, the Avvar tribes, and the seers and witches in the Kingdom of Rivain. Free mages don't mean another Imperium. The mage protagonist can ask for the emancipation of his people when he becomes the Hero of Ferelden. The historical mage Aldenon co-founded Ferelden with the intent of creating a kingdom where all men and women would be free; he saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery.

All of your examples of "free mages" except of Tevinter are not large, developed countries and free mage systems used trought. In all the cases of "free mages" the free mages are a handfull living in the wilderness.

For the dalish it's 1-2 mages per clan, living in remote forests away from humans..and some clans fall prey to demons because of that.
Chasind are similar.
With Rivian, they have Circles where most of their mages are, the witches are like the dalish - a few of them living a hermit life in a forest away from the rest of humanity.

The Dalish clans are the remnants of the Dales, and they didn't emulate Tevinter,

 
Just thought of this but that's a really debatable point.  Anaya (Zathrian's First) points out in DA:O that Dalish Keepers trace their lineage back to the nobility of the Dales and the degree of connection you have to that lineage is a contributing factor in choosing a First which is why she had to work so hard, being a City Elf.  All Keepers have magic and it's established that magic is, though not always, hereditary so this point would seem to suggest that the ruling class of the Dales consisted entirely of mages.

Now we don't know if they ruled as Tevinter did (with blood magic sacrifices and slavery), but we also don't know that they didn't, remember the Elves have lost most of their history so them wanting to reconstruct the Dales is indicative of nothing.

[dragonflight288]

Free mages will not work. It CANNOT work.

Unless you're dalish, chasind, or rivaini, raised outside the chantry and the qun.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Free mages will not work. It CANNOT work.

Unless you're dalish, chasind, or rivaini, raised outside the chantry and the qun.

what I mean is - it cannot work in large societies.

Like I said - Dalish only have 2 mages ian  clan, and they roam the forests. Still entire clans perish due to abominations. Great solution? Not really.
Chaisn are pretty muhc similar
Riviani do have Circles, and hte few witches are hedge mages like Morrigan - living secluded life in the wilderness.

Neither of those systems is applicable to large nations, with many manges and big cities.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Abominations ... they have screwed up the DA world.
They're not ignorable. This factor changes many things considering Mages and their freedoms.

This is not D&D which has different kind of magic-wielders who have control over their will.

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Free mages will not work. It CANNOT work.

Unless you're dalish, chasind, or rivaini, raised outside the chantry and the qun.

Except barely any of those apply to Thedosian society as a whole.

[berelinde]

There will be growing pains, but society will adjust. A generation later, people will probably wonder what the big deal was all about.

[Dave of Canada]

"Why did our ancestors not enjoy being killed, mind controlled or having their homes burned down again?"
"Dunno"
"Are you saying that cause of blood magic?"
"Yep."
*continues spit shining the mage's shoes*

[berelinde]

The people who are going to be most put out are going to be the templars. They're so used to going around doing whatever they please without any fear of repercussion that they're completely unprepared for life as regular people. Imagine the horror of the first templar who is actually brought on trial for rape or murder!

Seriously, that's the real problem. Mages don't want to rule. They just want to wake up and know that their day is no more likely to include abuse or torture than anyone else's in Thedas. Templars are used to being the tyrants. They're going to have some trouble adapting.

Unlike the mages who are born that way, the templars are a volunteer organization. Sadists and sociopaths have found their niche where they can indulge themselves with the Chantry's blessing. If the templars win, they will annihilate the mages. Their depravities aren't going to go away. Power is more addictive than lyrium. With the mages gone, they're going to find a new group to target. Next it will be the elves.

[Everwarden]

Something like this: "Under the new magocracy, every Tuesday will officially be ice cream day. Report to your nearest mage creamery and get your choice of chocolate or vanilla. 

We are out of strawberry."

[thats1evildude]

Merrill herself says that Dalish Keepers can become abominations. If it happens, then their clan has to hunt down and destroy them.