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[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...
No single mage ever destroy a city in DA world as i know it, it is just an exaggeration by Templar/Chantry supporter.

Hm...I recall a blurb from DA: Journies about an abomination in the past that took over a city and ended up destroying it.. or something like that.

Eitehr way, if mages did cause the blight, then every city destroyed by the blight is the mages fault.

And as Connor and Redcliffe show, an abomination can potentially destroy a city. It almost destroyed a well-fortified castle and large village. Were it not for the Warden, it would have ammased a bigger army and then what?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 juillet 2012 - 08:11 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

You wouldn't know a fact if it hit you in the face.

[LobselVith8]

Nizaris1 wrote...

IF....

Even if we account for abominations destroying cities or the Magisters being responsible for the First Blight (which seems to be a debate about whether they were the first darkspawn, or simply the first "awakened" darkspawn), does that really mean that mages should be imprisoned in a de-humanizing environment that gives templars "domination over mages by divine right"?

The fact remains that people will struggle against the Chantry controlled Circles, which some mages throughout history have viewed as slavery. I think a better system should be provided, but since mages have rebelled against the Chantry and the Order of Templars, it seems that has become moot; all that matters now is that mages will fight to maintain their autonomy from oppression and subjugation.

[Plaintiff]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Eitehr way, if mages did cause the blight, then every city destroyed by the blight is the mages fault.

If George Washington Carver invented peanut butter, then all the deaths of people with peanut allergies are the fault of black people.

That is how insane you sound.

[MisterJB]

Let's not glorify the act of starting a world war.
Yes, both sides have their faults but what the mages should have done was return to the White Spire and make it clear that they understood why mundanes fear them but that they will no longer be treated as if they are cursed.
Instead they declared an independent state knowing full well it will lead to war with Thedas. What the Fade?!

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 juillet 2012 - 01:30 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...

Let's glorify the act of starting a world war.
Yes, both sides have their faults but what the mages should have done was return to the White Spire and make it clear that they understood why mundanes fear them but that they will no longer be treated as if they are cursed.
Instead they declared an independent state knowing full well it will lead to war with Thedas. What the hell?!

Because everyone knows the only way to effect lasting social change is to go back to your room and be quiet!

[MisterJB]

Who said anything about being quiet? As I said, the mages needed to make it clear they were done beng treated as cursed but were willing to work with the Chantry to reach a compromise that satisfied both sides. If it failed, at least the attempt had been made.
Instead, they became as unresonable as they accuse the templars of being. This war won't be just between mages and templars. The nations of Thedas won't take kindly to the rise of another magocracy.

[LobselVith8]

Bioware Michael Hamilton commented on the Magi boon being turned down by pointing out that dictatorships don't get overturned by asking nicely. I don't see what good it would have done for mages to ask the people who have been oppressing them and subjugating them for the better part of a millennia to give them more freedom. What good did it do for the Hero of Ferelden who saved the world from the Blight, and asked for his people to be emancipated from their shackles (as Irving says at the royal ceremony)?

There is no compromise to be reached when the other side expects mages to live on their knees in servitude to the Chantry.

[MisterJB]

The boon asked in DAO was not for mages to have more rights. It was to give the Circle of Ferelden complete independence. Obviously, something like can't be accepted because it is as much of an extreme solution as Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution.

Just like there is no compromise to be reached if the other sides expects mundanes to trust mages won't abuse their powers out of the kindness of their hearts?

There were over an hundred mages at Andoral's Reach, inclunding all First Enchanters and the Grand Enchanter. They could have forced the issue, initiate negotiations with Justinia who they know is amenable. Not declare war on the spot after they ruined their last conclave.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 juillet 2012 - 02:24 .

[LobselVith8]

The Magi boon was about emancipating people from an oppressive system because mages had earned the right to govern themselves - in the eyes of the new ruler of Ferelden. The Tranquil Solution was about turning mages into emotionless slaves, as we know from Alrik's sex slave tranquil mage.

The templars want to control mages. The mages want to be free from the templars. There is no compromise to be reached here. Both sides want the exact opposite of the other.

As for the decision to emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars, I think it was the right decision. Andraste and Shartan didn't free their people by writing a strongly worded letter to the Imperium, after all.

[MisterJB]

Complete freedom for mages is an much an extreme solution as turning all mages Tranquil.
Turning all mages Tranquil would end the threat they represent but it's also cruel and wasteful. Dissolving the Circle ensure no mages will ever be abused by templars but free mages without having no one to keep them in check are extremely dangerous.

The Tevinter Imperium opressed its people for no reason other than the greed and selfishness of the Magisters. The Chantry might opress the mages but they do it because mages are a danger to themselves and others.

If the mages can simply disregard the reasons mundanes fear them, then they don't deserve to be free in the first place. Your rights end when you put others in danger.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

Who said anything about being quiet? As I said, the mages needed to make it clear they were done beng treated as cursed but were willing to work with the Chantry to reach a compromise that satisfied both sides. If it failed, at least the attempt had been made.
Instead, they became as unresonable as they accuse the templars of being. This war won't be just between mages and templars. The nations of Thedas won't take kindly to the rise of another magocracy.

They tried that. They tried to hold a peaceful conclave. When they did that, a Lord Seeker ordered them all to be killed. It's reasonable to assume the mages don't want that to happen again, so the only option left to them is to be entirely free of the Templars and Chantry. Also, the mages haven't declared a war yet. They're just abandoning the circles, and gathering at thatplacewhosenameIcan'tremember. If there is a war, it'll be due to the chantry or Templars being unable to let the mages go, and going after them.

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eitehr way, if mages did cause the blight, then every city destroyed by the blight is the mages fault.

And as Connor and Redcliffe show, an abomination can potentially destroy a city. It almost destroyed a well-fortified castle and large village. Were it not for the Warden, it would have ammased a bigger army and then what?

Firstly it wouldn't have been able to amass a bigger army. Connor himself tells you that, he'd already raised all of the readily available corpses and whines at you for spoiling his fun. And as Connor and Redcliffe show, the fear of the circles now ingrained in people means that even if the Templars suddenly became all sweetness and light, their reputation is already bad enough that a noblewoman would hire an apostate mage to tutor her son rather than send him to a circle. The actions of the Templars have effectively damned the circle solution.

And the mages, as in the collective, didn't cause the blight. A small number of Tevinter magisters did so at the behest of the Old Gods. According to the chantry anyway. I wonder if whoever wrote the chant, had instead said that the blight was in fact caused by an evil, sentient sausage, whether you'd still take it at face value. There's no more evidence to suggest the mages caused the blight than the sausage, besides what's written in the chant, so I guess you would.

Anyway, my point is that you can't generalise an entire set of people like that. It's equivalent to saying that because someone with purple eyes committed a crime, all people with purple eyes are at fault. i.e. it's ridiculous.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .

[LobselVith8]

Emancipating the Circle of Magi from Chantry and templar control doesn't mean it would be dissolved - it simply means that an anti-mage religious organization wouldn't have absolute control over mages. The fact that The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden and the King & Queen of Ferelden can agree that this is a good solution is an indication that not everyone shares the Chantry's views on mages.

As for why the Chantry brutally oppresses and subjugates mages, that's a matter of opinion that can be debated for eternity. I don't buy the altruistic claims of the Chantry; they have no problem supporting Orlais during its conquests of other nations, and what they do to mages is viewed as outright slavery by some of the denizens of Thedas. That honestly doesn't make them any better than the Imperium.

And considering that mages rebelled against their subjugation by the Chantry and the templars, and the entire world is "on the brink of war," how many innocents has the Chantry put in danger by oppressing mages and stripping them of their basic rights in the first place?

[MisterJB]

DuskWarden wrote...
They tried that. They tried to hold a peaceful conclave. When they did that, a Lord Seeker ordered them all to be killed. It's reasonable to assume the mages don't want that to happen again, so the only option left to them is to be entirely free of the Templars and Chantry. Also, the mages haven't declared a war yet. They're just abandoning the circles, and gathering at thatplacewhosenameIcan'tremember. If there is a war, it'll be due to the chantry or Templars being unable to let the mages go, and going after them.

Lambert did no such thing. He interrupted the conclave because there was compelling evidence Rhys had murdered Pharamond whose research was the entire point of the gathering. All he did was order Rhys be taken into custody.
It only descended into violence because the mages refused to let Lambert do his duty and the entire situation was planned by a Libertarian.

The mages can't simply disregard the danger they represent and expect the mundanes to leave them alone.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emancipating the Circle of Magi from Chantry and templar control doesn't mean it would be dissolved

Except that is exactly what happened in "Asunder".

- it simply means that an anti-mage religious organization wouldn't have absolute control over mages. The fact that The Warden from the Circle of Ferelden and the King & Queen of Ferelden can agree that this is a good solution is an indication that not everyone shares the Chantry's views on mages.

The monarchs of Ferelden wanted to have the mages under their control, rather than the Chantry.
At least Anora is smart enough to reach this conclusion. Alistair is just an idealistic idiot.

As for why the Chantry brutally oppresses and subjugates mages, that's a matter of opinion that can be debated for eternity. I don't buy the altruistic claims of the Chantry; they have no problem supporting Orlais during its conquests of other nations, and what they do to mages is viewed as outright slavery by some of the denizens of Thedas. That honestly doesn't make them any better than the Imperium.

And considering that mages rebelled against their subjugation by the Chantry and the templars, and the entire world is "on the brink of war," how many innocents has the Chantry put in danger by oppressing mages and stripping them of their basic rights in the first place?

I do not intend to claim everything the Chantry does is for altruistic reasons. However, as far as I know, no batallion of mages was ever dispatched to fight any of Orlais' wars. Only against the Qunari, the Darkspawn and the Dales(?), all three of which initiated hostilities; were mages ever used by the Chantry.
I vehemently disagree with your assertion the Chantry is no better than the Imperium. For one, they do not bleed slaves to fuel any magic. Their prohibition of blood magic is actually enforced, the Divine doesn't have secret squads of blood mages doing her bidding.

And how many innocents has the Chantry saved by doing it? Do you truly believe all mages want nothing but to be left alone?
The templars and mages must work together to protect mundanes from power hungry mages, mages from ignorant, fearful lynch mobs and everyone from demons. But each side must also be willing to make concessions if there is to be lasting peace. To attempt to destroy/free all mages invites nothing but anarchy.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 juillet 2012 - 04:35 .

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
They tried that. They tried to hold a peaceful conclave. When they did that, a Lord Seeker ordered them all to be killed. It's reasonable to assume the mages don't want that to happen again, so the only option left to them is to be entirely free of the Templars and Chantry. Also, the mages haven't declared a war yet. They're just abandoning the circles, and gathering at thatplacewhosenameIcan'tremember. If there is a war, it'll be due to the chantry or Templars being unable to let the mages go, and going after them.

Lambert did no such thing. He interrupted the conclave because there was compelling evidence Rhys had murdered Pharamond whose research was the entire point of the gathering. All he did was order Rhys be taken into custody.
It only descended into violence because the mages refused to let Lambert do his duty and the entire situation was planned by a Libertarian.

The mages can't simply disregard the danger they represent and expect the mundanes to leave them alone.

Lambert did start questioning Rhys about the murders, but he stopped talking about that and started on the mages in general. That's when he ordered them all killed. And I quote from Asunder:


The Lord Seeker seemed unimpressed. "I am done listening to the divine" he announced. "She will lead this land into chaos it can ill afford. All of you have a choice. Stand down and return to your towers, unharmed, or be treated as the rebels you are."

"No it is you who have a choice," Grand Enchanter Fiona warned. "Leave us to our lawful conclave. Allow us to investigate this claim against Enchanter Rhys in a rational manner. Or face the consequences."

-Lambert then asks Evangeline whether she sides with the mages or Templars. She claims that Lambert's actions are insane and stands with the mages. Resume quote.

"So be it" (Lambert talking)
With a wave of his hand the Templars attacked...


End of quote. Hopefully DG won't mind me copying that out. But as you can clearly see, in addition to wanting to question Rhys, Lambert is "done listening to the divine" and wants the mages the cease the conclave and "return to your towers." 

Regardless of whether Rhys surrenders himself to Lambert or not, Lambert also wants the mages to stop the conclave, despite the fact that he is going against his superiors in the chantry at this point. Lambert clearly initiated the violence and did so to stop the conclave. I'll quote the relevant bit again.  "Stand down and return to your towers, unharmed, or be treated as the rebels you are." If they don't cease the conclave and return to the circles they will be treated as rebels. And we see what that entails shortly after.

This section
"So be it" (Lambert talking)
With a wave of his hand the Templars attacked... 
Clearly shows that Lambert initiated the violence, not the mages.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juillet 2012 - 04:51 .

[GavrielKay]

MisterJB wrote...

Who said anything about being quiet? As I said, the mages needed to make it clear they were done beng treated as cursed but were willing to work with the Chantry to reach a compromise that satisfied both sides. If it failed, at least the attempt had been made.
Instead, they became as unresonable as they accuse the templars of being. This war won't be just between mages and templars. The nations of Thedas won't take kindly to the rise of another magocracy.

I think it's a bit silly to think that in 900 years, no group of mages has ever politely requested that mages not be raped, abused, enslaved and used for profit by the Chantry, pretty please...

And in their 900 years of submitting to the Chantry, they still hadn't earned the privilege of lighting a stupid signal fire during a battle against a horde of darkspawn.  (source:  war council meeting before the Ostagar battle in DA:O)

If the entire world being in danger of destruction, women being turned into brood mothers and men being tainted and dying horrible deaths isn't enough to get the Chantry to bring more than a handful of mages to a big battle, then I hardly think any strongly worded demands were going to be useful.  The Chantry elite probably gets those every day and has a nice chuckle over their morning tea.

The problem with a religious doctrine is that by its very nature it is considered "Truth" that has been handed down by an unerring source and must be accepted and acted upon by true believers.  The Chantry believes they have a divine right and obligation to protect mundanes from the mages and isn't it nice that in the doing of such they cement their position of power in the world.  This is not a situation where calmly pointing out that the subjugated side isn't very happy with the situaion and would like some changes is ever going to get anywhere.

The Seekers left the Chantry rather than work with the Divine to reform the Circles.  If they wouldn't work with the head of their religion, there's no way they were going to work with the mages.

And in any case, a class of people who've been systematically imprisoned by a combination of religious doctrine and public opinion for 900 years gets a free pass in my book to do whatever they think is most likely to change a horrendous situation.  My only problem with it is that they waited 900 years to do it and now it will be harder because the populace has had plenty of time to get brainwashed into thinking they have the right to enslave mages in order to feel safer.

[MisterJB]

You left out this part:

"He gestured to
the templars. “Take Enchanter Rhys into custody.”
“No!” Wynne pulled Rhys back by the arm. “Th is is beyond
reason! The Divine shall hear of this, I swear it!”

Before Wynne refused to hand Rhys over, Lambert spoke only of imprisioning the suspected serial killer in the room. While it is true he initiated the violence and was intended on ending the conclave, he did so only because the mages refused to let him do his duty. There was no order to kill all mages in the room.

[GavrielKay]

MisterJB wrote...

You left out this part:

"He gestured to
the templars. “Take Enchanter Rhys into custody.”
“No!” Wynne pulled Rhys back by the arm. “Th is is beyond
reason! The Divine shall hear of this, I swear it!”

Before Wynne refused to hand Rhys over, Lambert spoke only of imprisioning the suspected serial killer in the room. While it is true he initiated the violence and was intended on ending the conclave, he did so only because the mages refused to let him do his duty. There was no order to kill all mages in the room.

I think with the tensions in the room and the demeanor of Lambert it is logical to think that the mages believed that handing Rhys over was tantamount to a death sentence.  Obviously the mages had plenty of time to become distrustful of what the Seekers consider justice and weren't interested in partaking in it. 

Lambert could just as easily have backed down and let the mages do the investigation as push it to the limit.  I think the book makes it pretty clear that Lambert was in no way going to be upset if the mages thwarted him and gave him an excuse to get violent.  He pushed them knowingly.

Both sides dug in and caused it to end in outright rebellion - but it's the Chantry side that did so in order to maintain their oppressive regime.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

You left out this part:

"He gestured to
the templars. “Take Enchanter Rhys into custody.”
“No!” Wynne pulled Rhys back by the arm. “Th is is beyond
reason! The Divine shall hear of this, I swear it!”

Before Wynne refused to hand Rhys over, Lambert spoke only of imprisioning the suspected serial killer in the room. While it is true he initiated the violence and was intended on ending the conclave, he did so only because the mages refused to let him do his duty. There was no order to kill all mages in the room.

I didn't deny that Lambert still wanted Rhys for questioning. As well as wanting Rhys, he tells the mages to cease the conclave. He is there for two reasons not just one. His ending the conclave was not to do with Wynne trying to protect Rhys. Indeed, your quote suggests that if pushed, Wynne would allow Lambert to take Rhys but that "The Divine shall hear of this". 

He orders the Templars to attack, not when Wynne's outburst occurs, but when Fiona refuses to end the "lawful conclave" and when one of his own Templars sees the insanity of his actions. There is nothing to indicate that he wanted to end the conclave because of Wynne's outburst, but his comments about the Divine, followed by his conversation with Fiona and Evangeline, is what causes him to order the Templars to attack the mages. 

And that order is a kill order. The templars are equipped with swords, not oversized flowers or whatever, and they use them to run various mages through. Lambert might not be particularly logical, but I think he understood the consequences of that order.

It feels to me like all 3 templar and mages threads are basically the same discussion now.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:20 .

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

A bomb fueled by magic.

Magic or magical ingredients? There's a difference between the two. It's more then likely a bomb mixed with magical ingredients, which doesn't require a Mage to make.

Dave of Canada wrote...

My god.

I wouldn't discount that out of hand. It depends on beliefs and I happen to believe that magic -- not Thedosian type magic, but magic nonetheless -- does exist in some form in our world.

Of course, I'm more of a spiritual person rather then someone who is religious or incredibly scientific, so that may be partially why I think that -- another part being my bloodline.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Except that is exactly what happened in Asunder.

We were discussing the Magi boon in Ferelden, not the events of Asunder. It's made clear by First Enchanter Irving that the Circle of Magi will remain; simply that it will be independent of the shackles of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

MisterJB wrote...

The monarchs of Ferelden wanted to have mages under their control, rather than the Chantry.

According to whom? It's made clear by King Alistair and Queen Anora that the mages are being given the freedom to govern themselves. Theres absolutely no indication, explicitly or implied, that states that mages will be operating under the auspices of the Crown.

MisterJB wrote...

I vehemently disagree with your assertion that that the Chantry is no better than the Imperium.

It's my opinion. You aren't forced to share it. Killing mages with impunity and turning people into emotionless thralls is just as monstrous as what the Magisters do.

As for initiating hostilities, the Dalish elves claim that the templars were sent into the Dales after the elves kicked out the missionaries who were trying to convert them. The Orlesian version of events isn't the only one out there that addresses why the fall of the Dales transpired, after all.

There's no middle ground between mages who don't want to be slaves and templars who want to have dominion over mages.