201 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

GavrielKay wrote...
I think it's a bit silly to think that in 900 years, no group of mages has ever politely requested that mages not be raped, abused, enslaved and used for profit by the Chantry, pretty please...

And in their 900 years of submitting to the Chantry, they still hadn't earned the privilege of lighting a stupid signal fire during a battle against a horde of darkspawn.  (source:  war council meeting before the Ostagar battle in DA:O)

If the entire world being in danger of destruction, women being turned into brood mothers and men being tainted and dying horrible deaths isn't enough to get the Chantry to bring more than a handful of mages to a big battle, then I hardly think any strongly worded demands were going to be useful.  The Chantry elite probably gets those every day and has a nice chuckle over their morning tea.

The problem with a religious doctrine is that by its very nature it is considered "Truth" that has been handed down by an unerring source and must be accepted and acted upon by true believers.  The Chantry believes they have a divine right and obligation to protect mundanes from the mages and isn't it nice that in the doing of such they cement their position of power in the world.  This is not a situation where calmly pointing out that the subjugated side isn't very happy with the situaion and would like some changes is ever going to get anywhere.

The Seekers left the Chantry rather than work with the Divine to reform the Circles.  If they wouldn't work with the head of their religion, there's no way they were going to work with the mages.

And in any case, a class of people who've been systematically imprisoned by a combination of religious doctrine and public opinion for 900 years gets a free pass in my book to do whatever they think is most likely to change a horrendous situation.  My only problem with it is that they waited 900 years to do it and now it will be harder because the populace has had plenty of time to get brainwashed into thinking they have the right to enslave mages in order to feel safer.

And, first and foremost, I think it's silly to assume the living conditions of the Kirkwall Circle are the standard of all Circles in Thedas.

I do not deny mages have suffered under the yoke of the Chantry but they have also acess to conditions of living that surpass that of peasants. Clothes, food, strong roof over their heads, education, etc. And here is another undeniable fact. Magic is dangerous, mages are a danger to themselves and to others and they can't pretend this not be so like they are doing now. The isolation of mages has prevented many horrendous situations from ocurring.
The Circles could afford some changes as well as the doctrine of the Chantry but full mage independence is simply not viable. They are too dangerous and, at the same time, too useful.

Not all seekers disobeyed the Divine. Cassandra's group is still loyal.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:26 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
We were discussing the Magi boon in Ferelden, not the events of Asunder. It's made clear by First Enchanter Irving that the Circle of Magi will remain; simply that it will be independent of the shackles of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

A magocracy is a magocracy.

According to whom? It's made clear by King Alistair and Queen Anora that the mages are being given the freedom to govern themselves. Theres absolutely no indication, explicitly or implied, that states that mages will be operating under the auspices of the Crown.

Common sense. Magic is the nuclear power of Thedas. No government is going to fail to use the natural resource they just found in their land.

It's my opinion. You aren't forced to share it. Killing mages with impunity and turning people into emotionless thralls is just as monstrous as what the Magisters do.

As for initiating hostilities, the Dalish elves claim that the templars were sent into the Dales after the elves kicked out the missionaries who were trying to convert them. The Orlesian version of events isn't the only one out there that addresses why the fall of the Dales transpired, after all.

There's no middle ground between mages who don't want to be slaves and templars who want to have dominion over mages.

The Rite of Tranquility is only forced on blood mages. If it is being used like what Ser Alrik did, then it goes against Chantry law. And for every Aneirin being run through, there is an Anders who is brought back seven times.
Ironically, Aneirin seems perfectly content with minding his own business while Anders starts a world war.

There are always two sides of a war, of course. I believe the humans since an attack on the capital of Orlais would be hard to fabricate.

Of course there is. Mages are treated like people with special gifts, allowed to marry and raise their children. At the same time, it is mandatory for them to work closely with the Templar Order to ensure they don't abuse their powers and eliminate those who do.

[MisterJB]

DuskWarden wrote...
I didn't deny that Lambert still wanted Rhys for questioning. As well as wanting Rhys, he tells the mages to cease the conclave. He is there for two reasons not just one. His ending the conclave was not to do with Wynne trying to protect Rhys. Indeed, your quote suggests that if pushed, Wynne would allow Lambert to take Rhys but that "The Divine shall hear of this". 

No, it suggests Wynne is going to protect Rhys.

He orders the Templars to attack, not when Wynne's outburst occurs, but when Fiona refuses to end the "lawful conclave" and when one of his own Templars sees the insanity of his actions. There is nothing to indicate that he wanted to end the conclave because of Wynne's outburst, but his comments about the Divine, followed by his conversation with Fiona and Evangeline, is what causes him to order the Templars to attack the mages.

Lambert's actions were not commendable. He did want to end the conclave from the beginning because it had seemed a mage had assassinated the very reason they had gathered. However, the mages also protected Rhys despite compelling evidence he was a murderer simply because the person who brought forth the evidence was a templar.
Honestly, both sides did not act as they should have but the perpetrator of the entire situation was Adrian. She is the true villain here.

And that order is a kill order. The templars are equipped with swords, not oversized flowers or whatever, and they use them to run various mages through. Lambert might not be particularly logical, but I think he understood the consequences of that order.

Most mages were imprisioned despite the fight. No one would have died if they had not resisted and brought a complaint to the Divine Justinia who is sympathetic to the plight of mages.
Lambert is actually quite intelligent if somewhat prejudiced. He was right afterall, there was a dangerous spirit on the loose inside the White Spire.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
I didn't deny that Lambert still wanted Rhys for questioning. As well as wanting Rhys, he tells the mages to cease the conclave. He is there for two reasons not just one. His ending the conclave was not to do with Wynne trying to protect Rhys. Indeed, your quote suggests that if pushed, Wynne would allow Lambert to take Rhys but that "The Divine shall hear of this". 

No, it suggests Wynne is going to protect Rhys.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on our interpretations of what Wynne would have done. Unless Mr. Gaider happens to read this thread.

Lambert's actions were not commendable. He did want to end the conclave from the beginning because it had seemed a mage had assassinated the very reason they had gathered. However, the mages also protected Rhys despite compelling evidence he was a murderer simply because the person who brought forth the evidence was a templar.
Honestly, both sides did not act as they should have but the perpetrator of the entire situation was Adrian. She is the true villain here.

I agree that Adrian is a villain in this situation. She certainly ensured the confrontation took place. I don't think there was anything wrong with the actions of Fiona or the first enchanters however. They did have a right to hold that conclave, and they should have the right to question one of their own before turning him over to the Templars, and I don't think it was any fault of their's for demanding that right. When Lambert gave the order to attack, the mages had no choice but to fight back. Hell, one of the first enchanters does surrender, but in the chaos a Templar kills him anyway. Fiona and the first enchanters did nothing wrong as I see it.

Most mages were imprisioned despite the fight. No one would have died if they had not resisted and brought a complaint to the Divine Justinia who is sympathetic to the plight of mages.
Lambert is actually quite intelligent if somewhat prejudiced. He was right afterall, there was a dangerous spirit on the loose inside the White Spire.

Whilst the divine may be sympathetic to the plight of the mages, Lambert has just said that he is no longer following the divine's orders and that she will plunge the land into chaos. If the divine no longer has any control over his actions, what good will appealing to her do? Besides the fact that doing so still requires the mages to stop the conclave. Something they shouldn't have to do. Lambert is the one breaking the law here, not the mages. The mages shouldn't have to stand down just because Lambert wants them to, he has no right to make such a request, and the mages have every right to ignore his command.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We were discussing the Magi boon in Ferelden, not the events of Asunder. It's made clear by First Enchanter Irving that the Circle of Magi will remain; simply that it will be independent of the shackles of the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

A magocracy is a magocracy.

Mages governing themselves in a Circle Tower is a magocracy? I guess the mage protagonist becoming the Hero of Ferelden, the Warden-Commander, and the new Arl makes the arling of Amaranthine a magocracy, too? One where the mage protagonist can have his army protect all the people equally, save the City of Amaranthine from the darkspawn invasion, and end the tyranny of the Mother and the Architect?

Honestly, that doesn't sound that bad to me.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to whom? It's made clear by King Alistair and Queen Anora that the mages are being given the freedom to govern themselves. Theres absolutely no indication, explicitly or implied, that states that mages will be operating under the auspices of the Crown.

Common sense. Magic is the nuclear power of Thedas. No government is going to fail to use the natural resource they just found in their land.

In other words, your claims came from your imagination.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's my opinion. You aren't forced to share it. Killing mages with impunity and turning people into emotionless thralls is just as monstrous as what the Magisters do.

As for initiating hostilities, the Dalish elves claim that the templars were sent into the Dales after the elves kicked out the missionaries who were trying to convert them. The Orlesian version of events isn't the only one out there that addresses why the fall of the Dales transpired, after all.

There's no middle ground between mages who don't want to be slaves and templars who want to have dominion over mages.

The Rite of Tranquility is only forced on blood mages. If it is being used like what Ser Alrik did, then it goes against Chantry law. And for every Aneirin being run through, there is an Anders who is brought back seven times.

Considering that the two mages who returned to normalcy after being made tranquil begged for death over returning to their tranquil state, it doesn't change how monstrous the procedure is. And not all blood mages are the same - Merrill being the prime example of a good mage who uses blood magic.

MisterJB wrote...

Ironically, Aneirin seems perfectly content with minding his own business while Anders starts a world war.

Aneirin found a family with the Dalish while Anders wanted to end slavery. I don't blame him for fighting for the emancipation of his people across Thedas.

MisterJB wrote...

There are always two sides of a war, of course. I believe the humans since an attack on the capital of Orlais would be hard to fabricate.

The attack on the capital happened in the middle of the Exalted March on the Dales. No one doubts the Dalish were winning the war until the other human nations became involved.

MisterJB wrote...

Of course there is. Mages are treated like people with special gifts, allowed to marry and raise their children. At the same time, it is mandatory for them to work closely with the Templar Order to ensure they don't abuse their powers and eliminate those who do.

Mages are only permitted to have relationships in certain Circles, they can only marry in certain Circles (and even then, only with special permission), and no Circle mage has the right to raise their own child.

[GavrielKay]

MisterJB wrote...
And here is another undeniable fact. Magic is dangerous, mages are a danger to themselves and to others and they can't pretend this not be so like they are doing now. The isolation of mages has prevented many horrendous situations from ocurring.
The Circles could afford some changes as well as the doctrine of the Chantry but full mage independence is simply not viable. They are too dangerous and, at the same time, too useful.

I am not at all convinced that locking up the mages prevented more than it caused in damage.  As we have no way of knowing what the results of that alternate game reality would have been, we'll just have to disagree.

All that we do see in the game world however, happens either because of or in spite of the current state of affairs. 

No one (that I can recall) is suggesting that mages should not have mandatory training.  However, a lot of people are suggesting that it shouldn't be overseen by religious zealots.  No one is suggesting that mages don't pose a danger to themselves and others.  It is my opinion however that the risk is worsened and exaggerated by the Chantry for their own benefit.

However tempting it is, I think it is absolutely and indefensibly wrong to imprison an entire class of people because they have the potential to harm others.  If one of them actually does something, then fine, punish as needed,  But to consider them all basically guilty by birth is so wrong to me I find it hard to accept that others think it is not merely necessary but actually "right."

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Mages governing themselves in a Circle Tower is a magocracy? I guess the mage protagonist becoming the Hero of Ferelden, the Warden-Commander, and the new Arl makes the arling of Amaranthine a magocracy, too? One where the mage protagonist can have his army protect all the people equally, save the City of Amaranthine from the darkspawn invasion, and end the tyranny of the Mother and the Architect?

Honestly, that doesn't sound that bad to me.

It sounds like the Warden-Commander is a Grey Warden first, mage second.
But fine, one good magocracy that just ruled a small portion of land as opposed to Tevinter.

In other words, your claims came from your imagination.

You think Anora wouldn't have tried to use the mages? Please, it would be like discovering oil and not use it.

Considering that the two mages who returned to normalcy after being made tranquil begged for death over returning to their tranquil state, it doesn't change how monstrous the procedure is. And not all blood mages are the same - Merrill being the prime example of a good mage who uses blood magic.

A good mage she may be but if it wasn't for Marethari, she would have been possessed.
There is a reason blood magic is forbidden above all other. Its roots are demons.
The Rite is last resort, nothing more.

Aneirin found a family with the Dalish while Anders wanted to end slavery. I don't blame him for fighting for the emancipation of his people across Thedas.

Anders is unresonable. More rights for mages is one things. Deposing Meredith is one thing.
The complete destruction of the Circle is another completely different. The Circle is needed, Templars are needed.

The attack on the capital happened in the middle of the Exalted March on the Dales. No one doubts the Dalish were winning the war until the other human nations became involved.

No, the Exalted March was called exactly because there were too close to Val Royeaux.
The previous war came to be because the Dalish refused to cooperate with us, even during the Second Blight, and because they attacked the town of Red Crossing.
That and because they wouldn't covert to the Andrastian faith too.

Mages are only permitted to have relationships in certain Circles, they can only marry in certain Circles (and even then, only with special permission), and no Circle mage has the right to raise their own child.

I was proposing changes to the Circle system.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 juillet 2012 - 07:10 .

[MisterJB]

It is my opinion however that the risk is worsened and exaggerated by the Chantry for their own benefit.

However tempting it is, I think it is absolutely and indefensibly wrong to imprison an entire class of people because they have the potential to harm others.  If one of them actually does something, then fine, punish as needed,  But to consider them all basically guilty by birth is so wrong to me I find it hard to accept that others think it is not merely necessary but actually "right."

Meredith's sister was an untrained little girl when she was possessed. She killed over 70 people before she was stopped. So, it's no exageration.

I don't think it's right. I think it's necessary. The Circle could be changed to make mages and their families feel more welcome but allowing mages unrestrained freedom is just too dangerous. They will have a much easier acess to victims and the templar response will be much slower.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages governing themselves in a Circle Tower is a magocracy? I guess the mage protagonist becoming the Hero of Ferelden, the Warden-Commander, and the new Arl makes the arling of Amaranthine a magocracy, too? One where the mage protagonist can have his army protect all the people equally, save the City of Amaranthine from the darkspawn invasion, and end the tyranny of the Mother and the Architect?

Honestly, that doesn't sound that bad to me.[/quote]

It sounds like the Warden-Commander is a Grey Warden first, mage second.
But fine, one good magocracy that just ruled a small portion of land as opposed to Tevinter. [/quote]

What about the nation of the Dales, which was lead by the nobility who were leaders in Arlathan - who happen to be mages? What about the nomadic Dalish clans who resulted from the fall of the Dales, who are governed by the Keepers? What about the shamans of the Avvar tribes and the Chasind Wilders? Despite mages being free in all of these societies, they aren't trying to emulate the Tevinter Imperium.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, your claims came from your imagination.[/quote]

You think Anora wouldn't have tried to use the mages? Please, it would be like discovering oil and not use it. [/quote]

Considering her goals are refilling the royal coffers, building a university for education, and taking care of the nation, there doesn't seem to be any indication that controlling mages is one of her goals. In fact, Queen Anora asks Wynne to take a seat at the royal court in an effort to improve the lot of mages.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that the two mages who returned to normalcy after being made tranquil begged for death over returning to their tranquil state, it doesn't change how monstrous the procedure is. And not all blood mages are the same - Merrill being the prime example of a good mage who uses blood magic.[/quote]

A good mage she may be but if it wasn't for Marethari, she would have been possessed.
There is a reason blood magic is forbidden above all other. Its roots are demons.
The Rite is last resort, nothing more. [/quote]

I strongly disagree with you here. How exactly would Merrill have been possessed - by the imprisoned Audacity who could only be free by powerful magic? As Merrill tells an aggressive Hawke, she wasn't going to release Audacity. She had no intention to do so. If we take Marethari's claim to be remotely true, how did Marethari know that Audacity would use the Eluvian to escape its prison - did Audacity tell her? In fact, if it was that simple, why not simply tell Merrill how to build the Eluvian right from the start? Why wait several years to be free? It seems more likely that Marethari fell prey to Audacity because she thought she knew better than her protege.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Aneirin found a family with the Dalish while Anders wanted to end slavery. I don't blame him for fighting for the emancipation of his people across Thedas.[/quote]

Anders is unresonable. More rights for mages is one things. Deposing Meredith is one thing.
The complete destruction of the Circle is another completely different. The Circle is needed, Templars are needed. [/quote]

The Magi boon is evidence that freeing the Circle from servitude to the Chantry doesn't mean it disappears entirely. Even the independent Circle of Orzammar is evidence of how mages seek freedom from subjugation. The events of Asunder are very different, however. Clearly, mages having to fight for their freedom and their lives against rebel templars is going to force them to struggle to maintain their independence and their existance over governing an independent Circle of Magi.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The attack on the capital happened in the middle of the Exalted March on the Dales. No one doubts the Dalish were winning the war until the other human nations became involved.[/quote]

No, the Exalted March was called exactly because there were too close to Val Royeaux.
The previous war came to be because the Dalish refused to cooperate with us, even during the Second Blight, and because they attacked the town of Red Crossing.
That and because they wouldn't covert to the Andrastian faith too. [/quote]

The other nations were called upon once the elves were nearing Val Royeaux, but the Dalish claim the templars invaded the Dales to force conversion to the Chantry. The Orlesians claim the war started because of the attack on Red Crossing. Given the history of Orlais conquering other nations and the Chantry supporting them, there's reason to doubt their version.

As for the Second Blight, did the humans even bother to ask the elves, or the Emerald Guardians for assistance? And given how the Orlesian Empire was created through conquest, and how Orlais invaded Nevarra after "aiding" them during the Third Blight, there's amble reason for the elves to distrust a nation that was built on conquering its neighbors.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Mages are only permitted to have relationships in certain Circles, they can only marry in certain Circles (and even then, only with special permission), and no Circle mage has the right to raise their own child. [/quote]

I was proposing changes to the Circle system. [/quote]

I think independence from the Chantry would be on the forefront of their minds.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...

A good mage she may be but if it wasn't for Marethari, she would have been possessed.
There is a reason blood magic is forbidden above all other. Its roots are demons.
The Rite is last resort, nothing more.

Except the rite is used fairly commonly. Whenever a mage fails their Harrowing to be precise. Even last resorts shouldn't leave those subject to them begging for death.

Specifically what do you mean by the roots of blood magic are demons? Do you mean that demons created it? I very much doubt that, as no spirit has shown any sign of being able to create new types of magic. Or do you mean that it is just something humans hadn't discovered how to manipulate yet, and that they first learnt it from demons? In which case there shouldn't be a problem. What does it matter where you learn something? What if healing magic had been learnt from a demon. I wouldn't shy away from using it just because it comes from a demon.

The complete destruction of the Circle is another completely different. The Circle is needed, Templars are needed.

I'm going to cheat here and copypasta what I said in the other thread.

As a matter of fact, I am struggling to think of a single case we have seen or read in a codex, where a mage summoning a demon across the veil into themselves and becoming an abomination, isn't as a direct result of Templars, fear of the circle/chantry, or the circle/chantry itself. If someone else can think of an example, I'd like to see it. Either way, the vast majority of such cases can be directly attributed to those three reasons. If the Templars and circle/chantry are the cause of most abominations, surely the removal of the Templars as a military entity, and the abolisment of the circle system, is then only a logical step to prevent mages from becoming abominations? 

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juillet 2012 - 07:40 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

GavrielKay wrote... 

It is my opinion however that the risk is worsened and exaggerated by the Chantry for their own benefit.

However tempting it is, I think it is absolutely and indefensibly wrong to imprison an entire class of people because they have the potential to harm others.  If one of them actually does something, then fine, punish as needed,  But to consider them all basically guilty by birth is so wrong to me I find it hard to accept that others think it is not merely necessary but actually "right."

Meredith's sister was an untrained little girl when she was possessed. She killed over 70 people before she was stopped. So, it's no exageration.

GavrielKay addressed that it's wrong to imprison men, women, and children simply because they have the potential to harm others. The example of Meredith's sister, and even Connor, illustrates a need for mages to be properly taught, not for the toxic enviornment of the Chantry controlled Circles. I don't think that anyone here denies that mages should be properly instructed on how to use their abilities, but some of us think the templars and the Chantry are part of the problem.

MisterJB wrote...

I don't think it's right. I think it's necessary. The Circle could be changed to make mages and their families feel more welcome but allowing mages unrestrained freedom is just too dangerous. They will have a much easier acess to victims and the templar response will be much slower.

Independence from Chantry and templar control doesn't mean they would be unrestrained or without regulation, it simply means that mages won't be forced into servitude for the Chantry or their military.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
some of us think the templars and the Chantry are part of the problem.

I acknowledge that templars like Meredith can create the problem they combat.
So, what system do you propose?

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

she would have been possessed.

Incorrect. Marethari did no research on the Eluvians -- as DAO and DAII tell us -- and took a Demon's words as truth.

A Demon that was sundered from the Fade and trapped in a demonic Buddha statue. A Demon that could only be freed by a powerful spell cast on the statue itself -- as Merrill tells us.

A spell that we don't know if Merrill knew how to cast, but sure as hell know Marethari knew.

We also know, by Morrigan's own testimony, that the Eluvians lead to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade.

Oh and let's not forget that Marethari was closer to the demon then Merrill was and was in a position of power and influence, thereby making her the more tasty morsel to a Demon's appetite.

Plus, Marethari seems to think she knows what's best, meaning she's incredibly arrogant and prideful. Apparently, being both the Keeper and Merrill's adoptive mother means she can't possibly be wrong on matters she's ignorant of, giving a horrible new meaning to the phrase mother knows best.

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Plus, Marethari seems to think she knows what's best, meaning she's incredibly arrogant and prideful. Apparently, being both the Keeper and Merrill's adoptive mother means she can't possibly be wrong on matters she's ignorant of, giving a horrible new meaning to the phrase mother knows best.

And, Merrill thinks she knows best too.  Who's right?  Who cares.  Between them they wrecked their clan.  The Merrill threads are just as divided as the Templar v. mage threads

Anyway...

DuskWarden wrote...
As a matter of fact, I am struggling to think of a single case we have
seen or read in a codex, where a mage summoning a demon across the veil
into themselves and becoming an abomination, isn't as a direct result of
Templars, fear of the circle/chantry, or the circle/chantry itself.

I've said this so many times.  There are probably random instances where the Chantry wasn't at least indirectly involved, but they are far outnumbered by the abominations that can be laid at the feet of the Chantry and its dogma.  Connor and Meredith's sister were as much victims of the Chantry's
practices as anyone they killed.  The Chantry's demonizing of mages and
kidnapping mage children led to their parents making stupid decisions.

When you consider someone guilty by virtue of existing, with precious little possibility of ever earning trust or respect then you give them no reason to exceed your expectations.  Most mages will avoid demons out of self preservation anyway.  But for the less cautious or more desperate, their treatment at the hands of the Chantry only makes things worse.

If free blood mages were as likely to turn into abominations as the Chantry would have us believe, there should be no person or building left standing in Tevinter.  There is a severe disconnect between Chantry claims and game evidence.

If the "circle" were a boarding school where young mages could learn the dangers and benefits of their abilities before returning to their families, then their families would be less likely to try to hide them.  If mages weren't mentally beaten down by their religious zealot jailors they might better learn the discipline and self control necessary to resist demons.

You can control people for a certain amount of time with threats and violence, but respect and rewards work much better in the long term.  The Chantry is now reaping the rewards for its policies of intimidation and abuse.

[Daerog]

I can think of one abomination that seems to be one where the Chantry and Templars were not involved, not even a mage, I think, haven't played the game. Viscount Khedra?

Edit: Wait, what about the abomination in that Collective quest, the apprentice became an abomination and killed his mentor. Heshir is the apprentice name, Renold was the mentor's name. Nothing about templars or chantry mentioned, just some apprentice dabbling in bad magic.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:59 .

[Daerog]

GavrielKay wrote...

You can control people for a certain amount of time with threats and violence, but respect and rewards work much better in the long term.  The Chantry is now reaping the rewards for its policies of intimidation and abuse.

Intimidation and abuse are not the Chantry's policies. The policies were just used to by some Templars to abuse and intimidate. If that was the case, then such intimidation and abuse would have been in Fereldan with Gregoir at the head of it.

Anyway, Chantry is reaping nothing. The Templars split, the mages split, governments will be in peril, innocents will suffer due to zealotry of Templars and Mages. Not much will happen to the Chantry, other than having its members possibly martyred and sending people out to help fleeing refugees from the crazy Templars and crazy Mages. Anyone who directly attacks the Chantry will be seen as the evil side and the people on the fence will fight them.

[TEWR]

DaerogtheDhampir wrote...

with Gregoir at the head of it.

Gregoir unfortunately abused a pregnant mage in the comics, which are sadly canon.

So... yeah.

GavrielKay wrote...

Between them they wrecked their clan.

Lies! Those are vicious unfounded, baseless lies about Merrill! 'Twas all Marethari's doing!  

But seriously, it was. Marethari demonized Merrill and ruined her standing amongst the clan. To me, she did exactly what the Circle system itself does.

But I don't want to bring up that debate again.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:14 .

[Daerog]

The only canon is the games, everything else is secondary (or you can say "alternate universe," like with the sacred grove and such). The comics were so out of character, only six were made, they might as well be thrown into oblivion. However, good point, until Mr. Gaider says something, just have to accept that Gregoir is bipolar.

Still, its not Chantry policy to abuse mages.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:21 .

[dragonflight288]

Still, its not Chantry policy to abuse mages.

And yet templars have divine authority over mages, who aren't people (cullen) and a single line in the Chant of Light affects their entire belief on how they should treat mages.

I would like to ask Cullen what gives templars divine right over mages, that allows them power over them. The templar order didn't exist at the time of Andraste. There simply weren't any templars then. So you won't find this verse in it

And so the magical menace, created by a mages very being
Is abhorrant in the sight of the Maker.
Cursed are they who are born with great power
And the templar order shall take them under its wing

Canticle of Dragonflight, stanza 7

[TEWR]

It's a prequel. It's canon. It wasn't fanmade. It was made as an official part of the DA series

Besides, it's not an alternate universe. It's the same universe. And for Asunder and The Silent Grove, that's operating off of a specific world-state. The events still happen and thus are canon, but we're only told one version of how it happened.

I'm sure if Wynne died, the events of Asunder will change accordingly but won't be anything major. So you can't say that the only canon is the game.

But yes, Gregoir doesn't give off that vibe in DAO, so it's just something I personally detest.

[dragonflight288]

Maybe Gregoire changed over time, and became more levelheaded after having problems with zealous templars himself?

I mean take Cullen. He starts off sympathetic to mages, feeling he and the Chantry is being far too harsh on them. Then he is captured and tortured by blood mages for weeks, possibly months, forced to see visions by blood magic, and those mages do everything they can to break him. He watches his friends get tortured and die, one by one until he's the last one.

Then he goes to Kirkwall, much more hardened to the plight of mages than ever. But he's placed under possibly the worst Knight-Commander possible. Meredith and other templars there abuse their power like crazy, and Cullen has to face the facts that the templars, an order formed to defend mages from the world and the world from mages, is losing popularity by the day because of the templars practices, like trying to force the Captain of the Guard who cannot be bought out of the captaincy to solidify power, death squads killing non-mages in broad daylight, preventing the city from running itself, in addition to how they treat mages and their families previous to that.

Then Meredith calls for the Right of Annulment for a crime the Circle didn't commit. He witnesses Meredith demanding the death of mages who surrender, calling them blood mages even though they never resorted to it and didn't fight back. He watches Meredith call anyone who questions her whether they be noble or templar, as being thralls of a blood mage and every mage WAS blood mage in her eye. And then she demands the death of Hawke because Hawke is simply too inconvenient to live (if they support the mages, Hawke is either a blood mage or a thrall of one and if Hawke supports the templars, has too much political influence that he/she may take power from Meredith.) Cullen stands up to Meredith and she wants him killed because of it.

Cullen has seen the worst of both sides. I would love to see how he develops as a result of this. He may become what Gregoire was in Origins. Fact is, we don't know Gregoire's full history. He may have something similar for all we know.

[Daerog]

Ya, Chantry policy is used to abuse and intimidate the mages, but the policy itself is not to abuse and intimidate mages. Just because they are given power doesn't mean they were meant to abuse the power. I suppose it is the Chantry's fault that they are not more clear and specific with the policy, but if they were strict with how they want the Templars and Seekers to operate, the Inquisition may not have been brought under Chantry control to make the Templars and Seekers in the first place.

As can be seen, the templar leadership still sees what it is doing as best and feels free enough to just split from the Chantry. Maybe if the Chantry spoke up earlier, they would have split earlier. They are the right arm of the Chantry, but they weren't always that arm and they know it. The Chantry has likely been trying to walk a fine line to keep peace, but it just became pointless it seems.

Speculation from my side, but seems the Chantry does a lot and can't always focus on the Circles, which was the point of the Seekers and College of Enchanters to help, but oh well.

Edit: I don't know where the divine right thing for templars came from, it was just a piece of paper agreed by Chantry and inquisition to give authority. Even royalty in Thedas probably spouts that nonsense.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:06 .

[Daerog]

Sorry, didn't mean "secondary" as in the comics aren't canon, just that they are second to the games, that they can be overruled by the game. Guess I just worded it that way to voice disappointment, my bad.

Edit: Not saying events weren't canon, either, and such.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:01 .

[Daerog]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Cullen has seen the worst of both sides. I would love to see how he develops as a result of this. He may become what Gregoire was in Origins. Fact is, we don't know Gregoire's full history. He may have something similar for all we know.

Ya, Cullen's story is nice. Would be odd to see him in DA3, but who knows, seems like he would have a more reasonable voice than others. Although, he is still more anit-mage than for mages, so he still needs another voice to counter that small bias.