1027 réponses à ce sujet

[memorysquid]

Eain wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

I can't believe we're having an argument over whether or not morality is important enough to let trillions of people die. If we don't agree on that much then there is no point in going round-and-round.

The Crucible, which noone knows anything about, turns out to be nothing other than a giant cuckoo's clock that spawns the Reaper Overlord, who meets Shepard with no other message than "to solve this conflict, pick a colour to kill yourself!"

And when you ask it why, it says: "BECAUSE OTHERWISE TRILLIONS OF PEOPLE WILL DIE. FOREVER."

If your Shepard buys that your Shepard is being roleplayed like a very gullible fool.

Or you understand what the writers intended.  In game, it isn't even that hard to understand, even pre-EC it  was apparent the Catalyst was some sort of shackled AI.  Now doesn't he basically say as much?  In fact, you know plenty about him, both by how he acts, bringing Shepard up and then offering him choices, and by his exposition.  If all he needed was some gullible organic to let him destroy the universe, well, he had a galaxy full prior to Shep coming.

This argument isn't about morality or gullible role-playing.  It's about a few people who desperately wanted a particular end to a story "refusing" to accept reality.

Modifié par memorysquid, 02 juillet 2012 - 12:37 .

[memorysquid]

elitehunter34 wrote...

I don't think its that simple.  What if by trusting the Catalyst picking one of the options it instantly indoctrinates everyone which allows the Reapers replenish their numbers and create even more Reapers for the next cycle to fight.  If instead you decide to stand and fight, that forces the Reapers to fight you and they can't make Reapers out of you if you've been killed.  So yes there can be some gain by distrusting the Catalyst.  The OP's argument still stands: you can only trust the Catalyst if you meta-game.

What if by distrusting it, it decides to go ahead and annihilate the galaxy?  Oh wait, that's not a conditional, that's what actually happens.

Your argument is that you can invent some new rationale to counter anything anyone else says.  That's a common argument among people who don't base their beliefs in evidence.

[The Angry One]

memorysquid wrote...

Or you understand what the writers intended.  In game, it isn't even that hard to understand, even pre-EC it  was apparent the Catalyst was some sort of shackled AI.  Now doesn't he basically say as much?

This argument isn't about morality or gullible role-playing.  It's about a few people who desperately wanted a particular end to a story "refusing" to accept reality.

Every memorysquid argument ever made:

"It's author intent therefore shut up!".

Sorry, no. If you have to appeal to author intent, you're basically admitting the story has failed.

[IscrewTali]

Not a single army since the creation of the Reapers has managed to beat them. This has been going on for perhaps thousands of cycles. What makes your Shepard believe they have even the slightest chance, especially when they threw ALL of the military strength into 1 battle and were losing? What happens after that battle? Theres no military left to oppose the Reapers. The only reason that tactic had the potential of working was with the use of the Crucible, everything depended on it. Toss that aside, and all you have is wreckage around Earth for the next cycle to wonder about. To have even a small chance of defeating them conventionally they shouldnt have charged head on into the most heavily fortified Reaper territory. With all this in mind, Rejecting is basically admitting defeat. You go down in a blaze of glory in 1 big battle, because of using the WORST tactic imaginable.

Yes you may have had every known species in the fight, but it's not enough in a collision fight. countless cycles before you have proven this. Listen to Javik he knows his ****.

[memorysquid]

The Angry One wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Or you understand what the writers intended.  In game, it isn't even that hard to understand, even pre-EC it  was apparent the Catalyst was some sort of shackled AI.  Now doesn't he basically say as much?

This argument isn't about morality or gullible role-playing.  It's about a few people who desperately wanted a particular end to a story "refusing" to accept reality.

Every memorysquid argument ever made:

"It's author intent therefore shut up!".

Sorry, no. If you have to appeal to author intent, you're basically admitting the story has failed.

Well I do quote the story also to demonstrate it actually is the author's intent.  And who cares if the story failed to be consistent.  I don't think there is a person on all of BSN who's played ME3 and thinks it is completely consistent or without holes.  You keep trying to force this issue of how it's inconsistency necessarily entails X, when that isn't the case.

I mean if the author's communication is literally unclear, they intended to tell you about pizza but wrote "Snow is white," you'd have a case.  But they didn't, so you don't.  They are plain enough with their message and supported it throughout the work and even the series.  Their written avatar accepts the Catalyst's rationale, now with some questions, rather than without as before, but it is still a completed work of fiction that is understandable.

[Eire Icon]

elitehunter34 wrote...

I don't think its that simple.  What if by trusting the Catalyst picking one of the options it instantly indoctrinates everyone which allows the Reapers replenish their numbers and create even more Reapers for the next cycle to fight.  If instead you decide to stand and fight, that forces the Reapers to fight you and they can't make Reapers out of you if you've been killed.  So yes there can be some gain by distrusting the Catalyst.  The OP's argument still stands: you can only trust the Catalyst if you meta-game.

That simply does not make sense. Firstly Shepard simply cannot equate for a situation like that, he can only go by the facts that he has currently at his disposal. How could shooting a console indoctrinate everyone? Why would the Catalyst, who controls the Citadel need Shepard to shoot it, as opposed to doing it himself or getting an indoctrinated Illusive Man to do it?

By that logic you could argue he should trust the Catalyst because by shooting the console all those who have died will be brought back to life - its complete nonsense

The most logical course of action if you want to protect the next cycle is by stopping the reapers in this cycle.

[Everwarden]

Hey, hey! Don't speak for -my- Shepard, Angry One! 

My Shepard took a shotgun blast to the head, and now thinks he's a bowl of hyper-intelligent bacon soup specially microwaved for reaper consumption. It makes perfect sense for my Shepard to trust in the word of a hallucination of a small child telling him to push one of three buttons to stop the giant robots. 

Perfect. Sense. 

[Shaigunjoe]

The catalyst came off to me as a simple computer interface that had a programming change because of the crucible being attached. Though I do agree that IF you think the catalyst is lying to you, then any choice is valid including the reject because you really have no idea whats going on.

Not all that different from the end result of deus ex: human revolution. All you have is the word of people lying to you to base your decision on.

[Salfin]

I really disagree with the meta-gaming angle, the only way it might be true is if everything the catalyst says is a lie, which clearly it isn't intended to be.

Look at Shepard's situation - The Sword/Shield fleet is slowly being decimated. It was never going to be able to win against the reapers in a face to face attack no matter how much EMS you got (that's made very clear), it was just going to be able to buy you time to set up the Crucible. Hammer exists as nothing more then a few scattered squads bunkered down holding their positions. If you don't make something happen, you lose, everyone loses, and the cycles last chance of standing up to the reapers is over. From here on out it would be running and hiding until every advanced race is wiped out.

The Crucible is active. You know that, you know it affected the citadel/catalyst to your benefit because that's its purpose. You don't yet know how, you only know that organics have been working on it for countless cycles for that singular purpose.

Now you've plugged it in, and set it up. The Catalyst tells you it has altered him (as an AI my guess would be via his programming).

Maybe it's all some big hoax/trick set up by the Reapers, but honestly in this stage of the game if it is a trick and the catalyst is messing with you, then you've lost. All you have left to do is put one foot in front of the other and move this thing forward it's your only plan.

Where I do agree with you, is that there is a leap of faith involved. But going through your options, going through the capababilities of every race involved, while you don't know if after the leap you're going to land on solid ground or not, your boxed in, and you have no logical choice but to make the leap.

Given the fact that you -know- you can't stand up to the Reapers, the reject option is illogical, although perhaps emotionally satisfying. I do like the ability to stand up to them and say I'd rather die then compromise, and pass the ball to the next cycle knowing that the fight goes on. People see this as a slap in the face I know, they think they should be able to fight them toe to toe and win. But we can't, we never could have. Cycles tried and no one ever won that way.

We end up winning because we were clever, resourceful, and extremely lucky. Not because we could blast Reapers out of the sky.

Modifié par Salfin, 02 juillet 2012 - 01:23 .

[IscrewTali]

Salfin wrote...

I really disagree with the meta-gaming angle, the only way it might be true is if everything the catalyst says is a lie, which clearly it isn't intended to be.

Look at Shepard's situation - The Sword/Shield fleet is slowly being decimated. It was never going to be able to win against the reapers in a face to face attack no matter how much EMS you got (that's made very clear), it was just going to be able to buy you time to set up the Crucible. Hammer exists as nothing more then a few scattered squads bunkered down holding their positions. If you don't make something happen, you lose, everyone loses, and the cycles last chance of standing up to the reapers is over. From here on out it would be running and hiding until every advanced race is wiped out.

The Crucible is active. You know that, you know it affected the citadel/catalyst to your benefit because that's its purpose. You don't yet know how, you only know that organics have been working on it for countless cycles for that singular purpose.

Now you've plugged it in, and set it up. The Catalyst tells you it has altered him (as an AI my guess would be via his programming).

Maybe it's all some big hoax/trick set up by the Reapers, but honestly in this stage of the game if it is a trick and the catalyst is messing with you, then you've lost. All you have left to do is put one foot in front of the other and move this thing forward it's your only plan.

Where I do agree with you, is that there is a leap of faith involved. But going through your options, going through the capababilities of every race involved, while you don't know if after the leap you're going to land on solid ground or not, your boxed in, and you have no logical choice but to make the leap.

Given the fact that you -know- you can't stand up to the Reapers, the reject option is illogical, although perhaps emotionally satisfying. I do like the ability to stand up to them and say I'd rather die then compromise, and pass the ball to the next cycle knowing that the fight goes on. People see this as a slap in the face I know, they think they should be able to fight them toe to toe and win. But we can't, we never could have. Cycles tried and no one ever won that way.

We end up winning because we were clever, resourceful, and extremely lucky. Not because we could blast Reapers out of the sky.

 agree 100%. I actually posted very similarly not far back.

[CrutchCricket]

Hmm. Pity I didn't see this when you made it.
I disagree with you, Angry One. In fact if you want to argue from Shepard's perspective I think the opposite is true and rejection only makes sense as a player choice (rejecting the bull**** Artistic Integrity) and not so much a Shepard choice.

It has nothing to do with the trustworthiness of the holokid. But whether we agree with it or not, everybody harps on Shepard that the Crucible is the only way to win. Given how Shepard goes with the plan of building it the whole game, and then throws all his forces at Earth in order to use it, I'd say it's a safe bet he's a believer.

So by the time he gets to teh holokid, he's bloodied, tired and barely standing. Everyone else is basically just trying to hold on long enough for the damn thing to fire. And then the holokid shows up, talking crap.

It's a **** situation, but what the kid actually says is irrelevant. Shepard is not faced with three choices. He has a far more basic one. Use the crucible the way the kid says or don't. It could be a trap. But there is a chance greater than zero that it's Exactly What It Says on the Tin. So there is a chance, however small that he can end the war by activating the space magic. Or he can do nothing, and let everyone get wiped out. That course carries a guaranteed zero chance of success, from Shepard's point of view. And regardless of space magic whatever he decides has a good chance of being the last choice he ever makes given his injuries and his position at ground zero.

Basically, he's got nothing left to lose.

[Eluril]

As usual you're wrong. The Catalyst states clearly that the Crucible alters him. He wouldn't even be talking to your character if he was manipulating you. He would just kill you. He's locked out of controlling the Crucible and is powerless at that point. It's obvious to a player encountering him. Refusal is simply a principled suicidal stand. It's obvious from the conversation that everything and everyone you know will die going down fighting. I respect that choice, but don't act so superior.

[Jackums]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You're saying the same thing here. All you need to know is:

If you trust the Catalyst and he's telling the truth you stop the Reapers.

If you trust the Catalyst and he's lying everyone dies.

If you do nothing everyone dies.

+1

And this is exactly the situation Shepard knew s/he was in. The only option with a chance of success was to trust the Catalyst's word and make a choice, and Shepard was very aware of that.

[Deltateam Elcor]

Even if one meta-games, they still miss the vital point that, ONLY Shepard knows what he chose.

The rest of the Universe would just think that's the crucibles ONLY action, Shepard's choice is frankly pointless without witnesses, which could have been Anderson, but Bioware wanted this pointless ending, Shepard was killed off the moment he woke up after the beam hit, frankly.

[CroGamer002]

JackumsD wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

You're saying the same thing here. All you need to know is:

If you trust the Catalyst and he's telling the truth you stop the Reapers.

If you trust the Catalyst and he's lying everyone dies.

If you do nothing everyone dies.

+1

And this is exactly the situation Shepard knew s/he was in. The only option with a chance of success was to trust the Catalyst's word and make a choice, and Shepard was very aware of that.

Yeah.

I never understood why do people want to claim otherwise.



Plus, Catalyst could have let Shepard bleed to death.
Hell, even if you came with the lowest EMS, it will still let you use the Crucible.

So, there's that.
Catalyst doesn't lie, it's just wrong and stupid in many stuff.

[savionen]

You don't really KNOW that Reject will lead to defeat. Shepard certainly doesn't know. Hindsight is 20/20 on this. Many of you have been sitting on the "The Crucible is the only way" logic for months now. I would have picked Reject on my first try if it were available because the Catalyst made no sense and didn't seem trustworthy. And in the context of a video game it seemed extremely odd to bend to the will and choices of the enemy in the last 10 minutes of the game.

Why would he lie to you? Because you're about to destroy him and all of his Reapers. The Reapers indoctrinate, turn people into goo, turn other people into abominations and systematically destroy everyone from hiding and without warning every cycle. What aspect of the Reapers is trustworthy?

[Jackums]

savionen wrote...

You don't really KNOW that Reject will lead to defeat. Shepard certainly doesn't know.

Shepard referred to the Crucible as their last hope many times over, and went through all of the trouble and resources to create it. S/he was quite aware a conventional victory was not an option.

[CroGamer002]

JackumsD wrote...

savionen wrote...

You don't really KNOW that Reject will lead to defeat. Shepard certainly doesn't know.

Shepard referred to the Crucible as their last hope many times over, and went through all of the trouble and resources to create it. S/he was quite aware a conventional victory was not an option.

And when goes Reject, Shepard flat out says he/she will die as free person.

[Eire Icon]

savionen wrote...

You don't really KNOW that Reject will lead to defeat.

Let me stop you right there - Yes you do know, its covered numerous times in the game. Its covered in the lore, and its covered in Shepards experience of the Reapers accross the trilogy

Destroying your enemy is not bowing to their will - your enemy does not want you to destroy them.

If your Shepard is not the brightest, and a paranoid egomaniac with genocidal tendencies then go ahead and pick Reject, but don't try and use logic to defend your descision

[Eire Icon]

Mesina2 wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

savionen wrote...

You don't really KNOW that Reject will lead to defeat. Shepard certainly doesn't know.

Shepard referred to the Crucible as their last hope many times over, and went through all of the trouble and resources to create it. S/he was quite aware a conventional victory was not an option.

And when goes Reject, Shepard flat out says he/she will die as free person.

And luckily for him everyone else dies too, otherwise he would have been facing the biggest court marshall in galactic history

[N-Seven]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Hmm. Pity I didn't see this when you made it.
I disagree with you, Angry One. In fact if you want to argue from Shepard's perspective I think the opposite is true and rejection only makes sense as a player choice (rejecting the bull**** Artistic Integrity) and not so much a Shepard choice.

It has nothing to do with the trustworthiness of the holokid. But whether we agree with it or not, everybody harps on Shepard that the Crucible is the only way to win. Given how Shepard goes with the plan of building it the whole game, and then throws all his forces at Earth in order to use it, I'd say it's a safe bet he's a believer.

So by the time he gets to teh holokid, he's bloodied, tired and barely standing. Everyone else is basically just trying to hold on long enough for the damn thing to fire. And then the holokid shows up, talking crap.

It's a **** situation, but what the kid actually says is irrelevant. Shepard is not faced with three choices. He has a far more basic one. Use the crucible the way the kid says or don't. It could be a trap. But there is a chance greater than zero that it's Exactly What It Says on the Tin. So there is a chance, however small that he can end the war by activating the space magic. Or he can do nothing, and let everyone get wiped out. That course carries a guaranteed zero chance of success, from Shepard's point of view. And regardless of space magic whatever he decides has a good chance of being the last choice he ever makes given his injuries and his position at ground zero.

Basically, he's got nothing left to lose.

I basically agree with this.  Shepard has worked the entire game to get the crucible to this point.  Why not use it now?  Especially when the the allied forces are getting their asses kicked six ways from sunday and the death count is rising ridiculously fast.

Some guy has you pinned to the ground, punching you in the face over and over.  Him:  'Umm hey...something's come up.  You can stop this if you press one of these three buttons.'  You: 'No way man, it's a trap!!!'.   Him: 'Uh, excuse me?   Who's on top right now? '

If the Catalyst wanted Shepard dead, or the crucible not to be used, then all it had to do was to leave him on the lower level to bleed out, whilst the Reaper forces finished off the rest of the combined forces, and proceeded with their good ol' tried and true cycle.  No reason for to bring him up on lift and stirring him back to consciousness.  Their cycle would continue just fine, just the way they like it.   

A conclusion you can draw then, no meta-gaming required, is that for some reason the Reapers want some sort of change.  You don't know exactly what that is, but at this point you have nothing to lose and the alternative..the cycle continuing, and all your loved ones and the galaxy doomed to sludge, is pretty damn awful.  

Of course, this changes if you believe that your side has a good chance of winning the war conventionally.  But as someone else implied, that's just as much of a stretch, or more, than taking a gamble and believing the catalyst.

[LiarasShield]

reject really is the only option that makes sense to me ^^

[N-Seven]

Why would he lie to you? Because you're about to destroy him and all of his Reapers.

Disagree.  You weren't about to destroy him.  In fact you passed out on the lower level, were about to bleed out beside Anderson, and didn't have a clue how to turn the crucible on, and you don't know how to activate the controls.  You don't even have the strength to touch the panel.  (which isn't even the real controller anyways).

[savionen]

Eire Icon wrote...

savionen wrote...

You don't really KNOW that Reject will lead to defeat.

Let me stop you right there - Yes you do know, its covered numerous times in the game. Its covered in the lore, and its covered in Shepards experience of the Reapers accross the trilogy

Destroying your enemy is not bowing to their will - your enemy does not want you to destroy them.

If your Shepard is not the brightest, and a paranoid egomaniac with genocidal tendencies then go ahead and pick Reject, but don't try and use logic to defend your descision

Hindsight is 20/20 on this. That's whay I'm saying. You thought it would happen, it did happen, so it's reinforced your beliefs. If Reject was an original option it may have lead somewhere completely different. It was tacked on to the Extended Cut after-the-fact that we know the writers wanted the Crucible to be the only way. I've carved my own path entirely in ME1 and ME2, rejected other people's ideas and still had flawless victories, no deaths. Reject would have been the proper option.


Shepard is constantly told that people don't believe him, that what he's doing is impossible, that he'll fail in ME1 and ME2, how is ME3 any different? Shepard also doesn't explicitly say "Okay I'm going to reject the Catalyst, and I'm going to die" Shepard says "If I die, then I'll die free." and then it cuts to black.  This is also AFTER the fact that you picked Reject.

Modifié par savionen, 02 juillet 2012 - 02:14 .

[IscrewTali]

N-Seven wrote...

Why would he lie to you? Because you're about to destroy him and all of his Reapers.

Disagree.  You weren't about to destroy him.  In fact you passed out on the lower level, were about to bleed out beside Anderson, and didn't have a clue how to turn the crucible on, and you don't know how to activate the controls.  You don't even have the strength to touch the panel.  (which isn't even the real controller anyways).

Exactly. The Crucible changed the starkid's programming, allowing it to reach new solutions. But to do that he needed Shepard, because it had no control over the Crucible. If Shepard refuses to accept any of the new solutions, the AI resumes the previous solution of extinction cycle. It is merely attempting to make logical decisions based on it's options. There's no deception or lies. Destruction is presented because it's built into the Crucible, thus a possible solution to Starkid.