1027 réponses à ce sujet

[TheScott1987]

I agree with the OP. In Mass Effect 1, they said that the reason they set things up how they did was to make people go on a certain technological pathway (reliance on the relays and the Citadel). This almost ended in everyone being cut off from the rest and dying easily. And then an "I win" button of the Catalyst just happens to appear within the Prothean structure that the Reapers purposefully didn't destroy- why on Earth would Shepard trust it far enough to create it anyways?

They've killed Sovereign - with heavy losses, I agree. But in that time you'd think that even if the Council believed it was a Geth ship they would study it and try to find a weakness so that if it happened again they could easily kill it. Go on a pathway the Reapers didn't intend.

But then, besides all that, you're told multiple times that there's "NO WAY" to win conventionally. We were also told ME2 was a suicide run, and there was a high chance everyone would die - which they don't have to if you PLAYED RIGHT. Why else would you collect EMS if not for the chance to fight conventionally? Isn't that what the theme "diversity is good" says, that together with different ships and different tactics we'd stand a much higher chance than, say, the Protheans?

With Galactic Readiness 100% it says something like "Holding ground" which gives hope for conventional victoy. And then, with a high enough EMS - there's no reason for conventional victory to be as utterly impossible as everyone is saying it should be.

The lines are in the game for the same reason that we're forced to say certain things, have dreams about a boy we're supposed to care about, and the Reject end winds up being a Game Over screen - To make their end more valid. Which is what it ends up in - Bioware wanted to end it this way, any other possibility is thrown out the window.

But then there's also how the end was set up. You faint in front of a button that looks like it might control the Crucible, are transported to the ADMITTED creator of the Reapers who basically says "Hi, my creators were fighting with synthetics so I took it upon myself to kill them - you know, being a synthetic." I'd want to head back down the elevator and try to turn it on without this kid stalling me.

[Memnon]

I'm in agreement with Angry One - the EC informed us that the Catalyst was nothing more than a rogue AI which rebelled against his creators. Turns out his creators were idiots as they created AI to administer peace between AI and organics. He goes haywire, harvests his creators into the first Reapers, and now after all of that we're supposed to trust him.

[Eire Icon]

savionen wrote...

Hindsight is 20/20 on this. That's whay I'm saying. You thought it would happen, it did happen, so it's reinforced your beliefs. If Reject was an original option it may have lead somewhere completely different. It was tacked on to the Extended Cut after-the-fact that we know the writers wanted the Crucible to be the only way. I've carved my own path entirely in ME1 and ME2, rejected other people's ideas and still had flawless victories, no deaths. Reject would have been the proper option.


Shepard is constantly told that people don't believe him, that what he's doing is impossible, that he'll fail in ME1 and ME2, how is ME3 any different? Shepard also doesn't explicitly say "Okay I'm going to reject the Catalyst, and I'm going to die" Shepard says "If I die, then I'll die free." and then it cuts to black.  This is also AFTER the fact that you picked Reject.

Hindsight doesn't apply here

Shepard is constantly told that the reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. At no point does Shepard reject or question this notion. At no point does the player have the option to do so.

At the time that Shepard is presented with the options, there is nothing to suggest any of that has changed. He has orders in hand from his superiors to activate the crucible, orders he has never questioned.

If he chooses against selecting a new solution he is allowing the cycle to continue, and thus dooming the galaxy. This is abundently obvious to the player.

[AtlasMickey]

The Angry One wrote...

Shepard will not even survive to see these options pan out.

Shepard is dying anyway. Rejection wouldn't be so selfish and wrong, if it weren't your last act as a human being. You owe that act a willingness to take a risk. If there's any chance at peace, you should take it. You should only reject, if you think there's zero chance, or if it's impossible. Then what is your alternative? Nothing, in the face of imminent death. So, Rejection is the only option where you know there's zero chance for peace in this cycle, If you don't know it, you're allowing your reason to be clouded by selfishness. 

The Angry One wrote...

Why would the Reapers hand you the keys to their own destruction? The Catalyst does not adequately explain the reasons for this, other than the current solution no longer being viable for arbitrary reasons.

Yes, he does, and the reasons are not arbitrary. The Reapers are not primarily interested in self-preservation, but the preservation of what they see as galactic order. The Reapers have never been able to create an energy source like the Crucible nor have they encounted someone like Shepard and the kind of alliance she created that helped to make it, With these things they see a failure of their method and a possiblity of a new order. They would rather face destruction at the hands of Shepard and her alliance than prevent the new order. Why don't they just kill themselves, then? Why do they need Shepard to do it? Because, if Shepard rejects it, that shows she's not ready. Because they are interested in self-preservation, second to the preservation of order. 

The Reapers' main use of control as a tactic throughout the series is because they don't understand organics or do not see them as worth understanding. Like we don't choose to understand the minds of insects, we just capture them and pin them to walls for display. The Reapers do an equivalent and call it preservation. Yet, if we saw an insect start talking to us, we'd be like holy sh--. That's what the organics creation of the Crucible is like for the Reapers.

Once you understand the Reapers' modus operandi, you don't have to trust them. You can see they have no reason to lie and that they are not interested in destruction and conflict any more than clouds can be interested in forming rain. 

There is a "leap of faith" element to the ending, and this is certainly illustrated in Synthesis. Perhaps the game's artistic message is that sometimes peace requires faith. But in Mass Effect it's not blind faith, no where near it. Everything is amenable to reason.

(Oh and saving the Collector Base is not a leap of faith, it's just good military sense, when you capture a base or capital ship, there's no more motivation to destroy it. You might fear indoctrination or letting technology you don't understand get the worse of you, but after a successful capture that's just paranoia and an irrational fear of the unknown). 

The Angry One wrote...

But I'm sorry, you see the appeal of destroy/control/synthesis because you are meta-gaming. Shepard doesn't see it because Shepard CANNOT see it.

I doubt you're sorry about anything. Assuming Shepard is capable of reason, there is no meta-gaming or head canon-ing or whatever, and she'd be a completely monstrous fool to choose reject, fall from grace, and turn the Reapers into heroes for preserving her race from her own selfish decision (or leack thereof).

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 02 juillet 2012 - 02:52 .

[Heeden]

The Angry One wrote...

Disclaimer: If my opinions on the ending bother you, the back button should be to the top left of your browser.

When talking about rejection compared to the other endings, people often bring up how the Reaper threat is still ended one way or another and how selfish people are for rejecting and so on. That's debatable, but not the point here.
One important point that I think is often missed though pointed out many times before by various people - how does Shepard know that?

Every one of the 3 options is a leap of faith based on the word - and that alone - of the creator and controller of the Reapers. Shepard will not even survive to see these options pan out. Definitely so in control and synthesis, and at least a likely possibility in destroy (especially since Shepard tries to commit suicide by explosion).
From Shepard's perspective, all she sees is the head Reaper giving her an ultimatum, the logic of which is flawed. Why would the Reapers hand you the keys to their own destruction? The Catalyst does not adequately explain the reasons for this, other than the current solution no longer being viable for arbitrary reasons.

How is the Catalyst trustworthy? The Reaper's main tactic throughout all 3 games is corruption and deception.
Yes, Sovereign and Harbinger were honest. But they didn't WANT anything from Shepard, they were simply making proclamations as to their intent.
With others they have manipulated, lied and used up through indoctrination and such. Look at the Geth. The Geth were attacked by the Quarians, so the Reapers promised to upgrade and help them. Which they did... they also took total control and made them puppets, illustrating perfectly how the Reapers cannot be trusted.

This represents a fundamental flaw in the ending. Within the narrative Shepard basically can't take any of these options, they require a leap of faith far worse than the one needed to give TIM the Collector Base, for example.
The only way you know the endings are viable is because you already know what they'll do! This is in the EC of course - a first time player with the OE must simply blindly fumble into an ending because you have no other choice.
Now that you HAVE the choice to reject, no other ending makes sense internally. You can philosophise about sacrifice and brave new eras all you want. I'm sure some will immediately react and yell "DON'T SPEAK FOR MY SHEPARD". But I'm sorry, you see the appeal of destroy/control/synthesis because you are meta-gaming. Shepard doesn't see it because Shepard CANNOT see it.

The problem is, Rejection means the Reapers kill everyone and move back to dark space, I can't think of any way taking one of the choices can make this worse (unless you hate the people of our cycle and think the galaxy needs a reset, in which case fair-play, you monster).

When they took me on as a Spectre they said they needed someone who can make tough choices for the good of everyone. Even if all I knew was the colour of my choices picking one of them would be better than doing nothing.

[-Skorpious-]

The endings are definitely flawed (the catalyst's circular logic for example), but I find it odd that the catalyst would even mention destruction being an option if its goal was to ensure that the cycle remained unbroken. Wouldn't it be logical for it to simply remain silent? This tells me, flawed AI or not, its programming forces it to be somewhat honest about all the options an organic can select. It can sugarcoat control and synthesis all it wants, but as a synthetic bound by programming it is forced to put destroy on the table as a viable option.

Anyways, even if you don't trust the catalyst (which is completely understandable) the fact that every single one of Shepard's friends and allies have basically told him a conventional victory is impossible, what choice does he really have? If the Crucible is not used, the cycle will remain unbroken for the current generation of space-faring species. But if the Crucible is used, there is a chance that, however slim, that the cycle will be broken forever.

A slim chance is better than no chance. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 02 juillet 2012 - 03:18 .

[Gorkan86]

The Angry One wrote...

With others they have manipulated, lied and used up through indoctrination and such. Look at the Geth. The Geth were attacked by the Quarians, so the Reapers promised to upgrade and help them. Which they did... they also took total control and made them puppets, illustrating perfectly how the Reapers cannot be trusted.

Actually they were preparing for war with the Reapers. Then Quarians strike, and Geth suffer a heavy losses. Survival took precedent among the Consensus, causing the Geth to choose to make a deal with the Reapers, allowing themselves to be controlled by Reaper code in order to become more effective fighters, believing the cost of their free will an acceptable price to avoid extinction. 
They were not deceived. They voluntarily gave themselves under Reapers control. They choose slavery, not extinction.

[Memnon]

AtlasMickey wrote...

Yes, he does, and the reasons are not arbitrary. The Reapers are not primarily interested in self-preservation, but the preservation of what they see as galactic order.

How can you make this assumption? Every AI we have encountered has a strong sense of self preservation

AtlasMickey wrote...
The Reapers have never been able to create an energy source like the Crucible nor have they encounted someone like Shepard and the kind of alliance she created that helped to make it, With these things they see a failure of their method and a possiblity of a new order.

This is a ludicrous claim - the Reapers, the pinnacle of evolution which maintain the collective conscious of every single civilization that they harvested over the span of millions of years, including their creators, could not construct a battery?

AtlasMickey wrote...
(Oh and saving the Collector Base is not a leap of faith, it's just good military sense, when you capture a base or capital ship, there's no more motivation to destroy it. You might fear indoctrination or letting technology you don't understand get the worse of you, but after a successful capture that's just paranoia and an irrational fear of the unknown).

It is good military sense if you have the resources to staff and maintain it; otherwise it can be captured by your enemies and used against you again. It DOES make good military sense to destroy the base if you don't think you can logistically maintain it

[jsadalia]

The Angry One wrote...

Disclaimer: If my opinions on the ending bother you, the back button should be to the top left of your browser.

When talking about rejection compared to the other endings, people often bring up how the Reaper threat is still ended one way or another and how selfish people are for rejecting and so on. That's debatable, but not the point here.
One important point that I think is often missed though pointed out many times before by various people - how does Shepard know that?

Every one of the 3 options is a leap of faith based on the word - and that alone - of the creator and controller of the Reapers. Shepard will not even survive to see these options pan out. Definitely so in control and synthesis, and at least a likely possibility in destroy (especially since Shepard tries to commit suicide by explosion).
From Shepard's perspective, all she sees is the head Reaper giving her an ultimatum, the logic of which is flawed. Why would the Reapers hand you the keys to their own destruction? The Catalyst does not adequately explain the reasons for this, other than the current solution no longer being viable for arbitrary reasons.

How is the Catalyst trustworthy? The Reaper's main tactic throughout all 3 games is corruption and deception.
Yes, Sovereign and Harbinger were honest. But they didn't WANT anything from Shepard, they were simply making proclamations as to their intent.
With others they have manipulated, lied and used up through indoctrination and such. Look at the Geth. The Geth were attacked by the Quarians, so the Reapers promised to upgrade and help them. Which they did... they also took total control and made them puppets, illustrating perfectly how the Reapers cannot be trusted.

This represents a fundamental flaw in the ending. Within the narrative Shepard basically can't take any of these options, they require a leap of faith far worse than the one needed to give TIM the Collector Base, for example.
The only way you know the endings are viable is because you already know what they'll do! This is in the EC of course - a first time player with the OE must simply blindly fumble into an ending because you have no other choice.
Now that you HAVE the choice to reject, no other ending makes sense internally. You can philosophise about sacrifice and brave new eras all you want. I'm sure some will immediately react and yell "DON'T SPEAK FOR MY SHEPARD". But I'm sorry, you see the appeal of destroy/control/synthesis because you are meta-gaming. Shepard doesn't see it because Shepard CANNOT see it.

Rejection is essentially inaction. Activating the Crucible is the only chance of victory: Shepard knows this.  Inaction is a choice that leads to certain failure, the destruction of everything Shepard knows and loves, and the awful suffering and deaths of trillions.  There is no worse option.  It's not resistance.  It's surrender.

Even if Shepard mistrusts the catalyst with every fiber of his being, even if he fears the thing is lying to him, attempting to deceive and manipulate him, there is nothing the Catalyst can do that has worse consequences than Shepard doing nothing.

Choosing other than Reject is not metagaming.  It's a character choosing a chance of success over the certainty of failure.  Shepard would see this.  Shepard CANNOT see selfish pride as justification for damming the galaxy.

[v TricKy v]

Nyoka wrote...

Space kid = everything bad about the ending.

For the nth time - you have your crucible-building allies explaining to you what it does instead of your enemy (even worse, his silly theories, which you are doomed to accept as an article of faith), suddenly the ending barely has any problem. You have reason to trust your allies. They built the Crucible and you share their objectives, so they can tell you whatever and it's fine.

In this case, Green for instance wouldn't be there because your enemy thinks it's the only solution to his hypothetical problem, but because Legion thinks it's great.

this
If Hackett/Liara/Legion would have explained the crucible we wouldnt be having all these discussions about the catalyst and the flawed logic of him

[DPSSOC]

I agree and I don't with the OP. If your Shepard believes as he/she's been told that conventional victory isn't possible then any of the choices are an equal roll of the dice in terms of victory. All decisions are a leap of faith so all can make sense without metagaming. Certainly rejection still makes the most sense from a non-metagaming perspective, because it doesn't require trusting the Big Bad, but if your Shepard believes rejection is certain defeat than they might be willing to take a chance. Kind of a, "If I reject the options we lose, if the Catalyst is lying and I take one of the choices we lose, but if the Catalyst is telling the truth we win." There's a possibility for victory in trusting the Catalyst and no greater loss if it turns out he's lying.

[DocJill]

I agree that rejection is the best ending considering ME's themes, but the kick in the gut is that Marc Gamble and Jessica Merizan posted on twitter that the next cycle USES THE DAMN CRUCIBLE to defeat the Reapers. So you just waste everyone's life in this cycle, and someone in the next cycle chooses RGB. I would link to the twitter posts/BSN thread but I can't find it currently.

But since this is not stated explicitly in game, I choose to believe that the information in Liara's time capsules is sufficient for the next cycle to defeat the Reapers conventionally.

[LiarasShield]

jsadalia wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Disclaimer: If my opinions on the ending bother you, the back button should be to the top left of your browser.

When talking about rejection compared to the other endings, people often bring up how the Reaper threat is still ended one way or another and how selfish people are for rejecting and so on. That's debatable, but not the point here.
One important point that I think is often missed though pointed out many times before by various people - how does Shepard know that?

Every one of the 3 options is a leap of faith based on the word - and that alone - of the creator and controller of the Reapers. Shepard will not even survive to see these options pan out. Definitely so in control and synthesis, and at least a likely possibility in destroy (especially since Shepard tries to commit suicide by explosion).
From Shepard's perspective, all she sees is the head Reaper giving her an ultimatum, the logic of which is flawed. Why would the Reapers hand you the keys to their own destruction? The Catalyst does not adequately explain the reasons for this, other than the current solution no longer being viable for arbitrary reasons.

How is the Catalyst trustworthy? The Reaper's main tactic throughout all 3 games is corruption and deception.
Yes, Sovereign and Harbinger were honest. But they didn't WANT anything from Shepard, they were simply making proclamations as to their intent.
With others they have manipulated, lied and used up through indoctrination and such. Look at the Geth. The Geth were attacked by the Quarians, so the Reapers promised to upgrade and help them. Which they did... they also took total control and made them puppets, illustrating perfectly how the Reapers cannot be trusted.

This represents a fundamental flaw in the ending. Within the narrative Shepard basically can't take any of these options, they require a leap of faith far worse than the one needed to give TIM the Collector Base, for example.
The only way you know the endings are viable is because you already know what they'll do! This is in the EC of course - a first time player with the OE must simply blindly fumble into an ending because you have no other choice.
Now that you HAVE the choice to reject, no other ending makes sense internally. You can philosophise about sacrifice and brave new eras all you want. I'm sure some will immediately react and yell "DON'T SPEAK FOR MY SHEPARD". But I'm sorry, you see the appeal of destroy/control/synthesis because you are meta-gaming. Shepard doesn't see it because Shepard CANNOT see it.

Rejection is essentially inaction. Activating the Crucible is the only chance of victory: Shepard knows this.  Inaction is a choice that leads to certain failure, the destruction of everything Shepard knows and loves, and the awful suffering and deaths of trillions.  There is no worse option.  It's not resistance.  It's surrender.

Even if Shepard mistrusts the catalyst with every fiber of his being, even if he fears the thing is lying to him, attempting to deceive and manipulate him, there is nothing the Catalyst can do that has worse consequences than Shepard doing nothing.

Choosing other than Reject is not metagaming.  It's a character choosing a chance of success over the certainty of failure.  Shepard would see this.  Shepard CANNOT see selfish pride as justification for damming the galaxy.

Actually it is vice versa so what you become a Ai with incredible power you don't know if one day that power may corrupt you or turn into a similar abomination of the catalyst


Forcing everyone to be part synthetic and organic against their will altering their dna and either completely changing them or forcing them to be something that they never were is not right


Destroying your own forces to kill the reapers is not right


If I die then I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you and I will die free I believe in freedom of choice and not submitting to the catalyst so I chose Reject

And I also believe the next generation with our data of the reapers could've found another solution besides the crucible and stoped the reapers without the crucible  where we could not so yes giving the next generation a better chance to beat the reapers without the crucible is fine way to me

[Heeden]

DocJill wrote...

I agree that rejection is the best ending considering ME's themes, but the kick in the gut is that Marc Gamble and Jessica Merizan posted on twitter that the next cycle USES THE DAMN CRUCIBLE to defeat the Reapers. So you just waste everyone's life in this cycle, and someone in the next cycle chooses RGB. I would link to the twitter posts/BSN thread but I can't find it currently.

But since this is not stated explicitly in game, I choose to believe that the information in Liara's time capsules is sufficient for the next cycle to defeat the Reapers conventionally.

In my Stargazer-reject ending they didn't say they won their war, they say they didn't fight at all. Now they know Synthesis is a possibility (and organics have information from us saying that synthetics are people too) perhaps the Reapers guided the galaxy towards that goal without violence.

[Heeden]

LiarasShield wrote...

If I die then I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you and I will die free I believe in freedom of choice and not submitting to the catalyst so I chose Reject

Correction - you did everything except use the giant machine the entire galaxy worked together on in order to stop the Harvest, even though you're the one who persuaded them to build it in the first place and they all trusted you to stop the Reapers somehow.

[MegaSovereign]

Actually it is vice versa so what you become a Ai with incredible power you don't know if one day that power may corrupt you or turn into a similar abomination of the catalyst

You're giving human emotions to artificial entities.

The Catalyst didn't become corrupt because he had too much power, he got corrupt because he was programmed to solve an unsolvable task. He's clearly stuck in a logic loop and has no real interest in power.

The new Shepard-based Catalyst, has a very simple purpose. Stop the cycle of destruction that has been going on for millions of years. No matter what controversial thing Shepard does with the Reapers, he's not going to start harvesting because that would render his sacrifice completely pointless.

[LiarasShield]

Heeden wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

If I die then I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you and I will die free I believe in freedom of choice and not submitting to the catalyst so I chose Reject

Correction - you did everything except use the giant machine the entire galaxy worked together on in order to stop the Harvest, even though you're the one who persuaded them to build it in the first place and they all trusted you to stop the Reapers somehow.

Again
Actually it is vice versa so what you become a Ai with incredible power you don't know if one day that power may corrupt you or turn into a similar abomination of the catalyst


Forcing everyone to be part synthetic and organic against their will altering their dna and either completely changing them or forcing them to be something that they never were is not right


Destroying your own forces to kill the reapers is not right


If I die then I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you and I will die free I believe in freedom of choice and not submitting to the catalyst so I chose Reject

And I also believe the next generation with our data of the reapers could've found another solution besides the crucible and stoped the reapers without the crucible where we could not so yes giving the next generation a better chance to beat the reapers without the crucible is fine way to me

[Khajiit Jzargo]

100% agreed.

[LiarasShield]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Actually it is vice versa so what you become a Ai with incredible power you don't know if one day that power may corrupt you or turn into a similar abomination of the catalyst

You're giving human emotions to artificial entities.

The Catalyst didn't become corrupt because he had too much power, he got corrupt because he was programmed to solve an unsolvable task. He's clearly stuck in a logic loop and has no real interest in power.

The new Shepard-based Catalyst, has a very simple purpose. Stop the cycle of destruction that has been going on for millions of years. No matter what controversial thing Shepard does with the Reapers, he's not going to start harvesting because that would render his sacrifice completely pointless.

If absolute power corrupts absolutely then over time wether shepard is a ai or not because he or she is pretty much a god now overtime his or her power would begin to warp his or her ideals turning him or her into the very thing that he or she swore to stop

[jsadalia]

LiarasShield wrote...


If I die then I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you and I will die free I believe in freedom of choice and not submitting to the catalyst so I chose Reject

You also kill every member of every advanced society in the galaxy. A personal ideology of freedom is not worth that.

[LiarasShield]

jsadalia wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...


If I die then I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you and I will die free I believe in freedom of choice and not submitting to the catalyst so I chose Reject

You also kill every member of every advanced society in the galaxy. A personal ideology of freedom is not worth that.

Is better to die free then force everyone against their will to be a machine it is better To die free to play god and become some reaper catalyst messing with power that may one day come back to bite us in the ass or warp us into a eviler version of the catalyst


Dieing fo freedom is better then killing my own troops or forces just to kill the reapers I'm less heartless then you think

[MegaSovereign]

Shepard does ask the Catalyst why he's helping him. So trusting the Catalyst isn't completely based on faith and or meta-gaming.

"You have altered the variables"

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities.."

"If there is a new solution you must act"

I'm also gonna go head and re-post this:

The Catalyst underestimated the organics, realizing that his solution might not be as flawless as he thinks it is. Even if he does trick Shepard and wins this cycle, organics are very savvy at containing and storing information for future cycles. Eventually a cycle will build a new and improved Crucible, one that might not even need the Catalyst's help to be deployed. With that said, the Catalyst, knowing that the cycle will inevitably end, takes his chances and gives the ball to Shepard. If he helps Shepard, there is a better chance that he could use the Crucible to replace his solution with synthesis. "If there is a new solution, you must act." Why doesn't he force synthesis? Same reason Legion asked Shepard to decide the fate of the geth heretics. He needed a new perspective, an organic---one that wasn't indoctrinated to the Reaper's cause (sorry TIM). This is one way to look it at.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

jsadalia wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...


If I die then I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you and I will die free I believe in freedom of choice and not submitting to the catalyst so I chose Reject

You also kill every member of every advanced society in the galaxy. A personal ideology of freedom is not worth that.

The galaxy agreed to fight the reapers or die trying, no one agreed to be sacrificed, to control the reapers, or to co-exist with them. So were not submitting to anything, by refusing we continue to fight the reapers.