1027 réponses à ce sujet

[M Hedonist]

Great. Now people aren't metagaming and instead applying headcanon.
We never actually see anyone dying. In fact, the Asari-looking star gazer could even suggest that there are some survivors of the current cycle who made it to the next cycle (just like Javik survived into the next cycle). Or people fled to another galaxy.
You're making the Reject ending out to be much more grim and definite than it actually is. There is hope, more than in any of the other endings.

[LiarasShield]

Eire Icon wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Merging life together against their will is wrong

What about killing entire races against their will - is that not wrong also ?

LiarasShield wrote...
Killing your own forces to kill the reapers is wrong and yes despite what you think refuse is still the best moral choice out of all these options because we go down fighting for freedom not altering people not messing with power beyond our comprehension not personally killing my own forces to kill the reapers

Its called collatoral damage. Yes its not a pleasant choice, but you're talking as if not making a choice will somehow save them. It won't.

LiarasShield wrote...
Honestly how many people are willing to play god or turn everyone into half machines against their will or kill their own forces to kill the reapers make me creeped out and just as sick

I'd rather let the next generation hopefully find a bteer solution with our info and more time to prepare for the reapers then use a device that will rape the galaxy one way or another

Do you not realise by refusing to make a choice, you are actually playing God? You are actually dooming an entire galaxy based on your own beliefs alone.

You have the power, you choose not to use it, veryone else is powerless

By sheer definition of the term - You are playing God when you refuse to choose

Bull**** I'm not playing god cause i allow my forces to fight to the end the way they would want to instead of forcing a decision without their consent or guidance and making a decision that they wouldn't agree to or would not be happy about

[IscrewTali]

LiarasShield wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Off-topic...But I noticed something

The same people who are saying a conventional victory against the Reapers should be possible are also saying seizing Control of the Reapers is like playing God. So you can't be God, but you can defeat him?

The double-standards have to stop if you guys want me to take your arguments seriously.

Actually yeah if we spent more time making canies and thanix cannons instead making a unknown potentially reaper device that we have no true idea of what it would do at the time but we know it failed before to try to use against the reapers yeah I do think we could beat them and it has nothing to do with double standards

What if this, what if that. the FACT is the galaxy doesnt have the strength to match the Reapers. That is the reason you were making the "unknown potentially reaper device that we have no true idea of what it would do". During the entire game he is forced to make sacrifices for the greater good, and when it comes down to the final decision he backs out and says "we'd rather go down fighting, whiping out all galactic civilization, than sacrificing a bunch of AI's that gained conciousness a week ago by doing something crazy that may or may not deliver us victory."

[IscrewTali]

LiarasShield wrote...
Bull**** I'm not playing god cause i allow my forces to fight to the end the way they would want to instead of forcing a decision without their consent or guidance and making a decision that they wouldn't agree to or would not be happy about

When holding the lives of trillions in your hands you cant think "damn they might be a bit upset by this decision, ill just tell them it didnt work and lets all die together to avoid an incident".

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Yes. The enemy said it, and your options were do nothing and doom the galaxy to death or take a chance and hope he's telling the truth.

If you choose to do nothing there is no moral high ground, you knowingly let the galaxy die because you didn't want to take a chance.

I'm not knowingly doing anything of the sort. I'm putting my faith in my allies that we'll find some way out of this, to defy the enemy that's giving us all an ultimatum.

By that stage Shepard knows that if they lose this fight they've lost. Even if you ignore the guy overseeing the Crucible you can't ignore the fact that only 40% of Hammer called in, and Joker telling you they're taking heavy losses, and the losing fight seen around the Citadel, and the overwhelming Reaper forces in every system.

Knowingly doing nothing is just as bad as killing everyone.

[LiarasShield]

I'm not going to kill the geth or the quarians I'm not going to make everyone be part machine or erase who they are just to coperate with the reapers I'm not going to play with power that I was never ment to have and if you can't see why refuse is the best moral option espically if the next generation can find another solution besides the crucible then will go with all the endings are bad and terrible and it all sucks if you can't understand where i'm coming from

[DocJill]

Nyoka wrote...

Krogan warlord: Hand over the Asari.
Shepard: We don't have time to deal with this idiot. Charge!
Thorian: The Old Growth will listen no more.
Shepard: I don't argue with plants. Give me what I want, now.
Sovereign: You will die because we demand it.
Shepard: Machines can be broken.
Saren: Join us.
Shepard: You're a coward. You join me!
*Saren shoots himself*
Tali: Now you're working for Cerberus.
Shepard: They're working for me.
Harbinger: If I have to tear you apart, Shepard, I will.
*Shepard shoots the possesed collector to death*
TIM: The Collector base can advance humanity!
Shepard: I will stop the Reapers and I won't kill the soul of our species to do it.
TIM: We can control the Reapers!
Shepard: You're crazy.
TIM: Your time has passed.
Shepard: Go to hell.
Reaper: We are your salvation. It is inevitable.
Shepard: Tell your friend we're coming for them. *kills Reaper* Never mind. I'll tell them myself.
Kai Leng: You're slow.
Shepard: No gunship this time, you son of a ****. *Kills Kai Leng*
TIM: Shepard. You have to understand. We can control them. Join me!
Shepard: You're indoctrinated. But it's not too late. You join me!
*TIM kills himself*
Space kid: blahblahblah Shepard.
Shepard: I...don't know.
Space kid: Shoot that pipe, grab those bars or jump into that beam.
Shepard: Okay.

Love. This.

[Benny8484]

Reject was the only ending that truly upheld the views & morals of commander Shepard.  Even though it was added to spite fans for rejecting their endings it is by far the best. 

Synthesis gives the reapers what they have wanted all along - ascension.  Also wasn't one of the main themes in ME2 "Does this unit have a soul" also, doesn't EDI go on to make remarks in ME2 about how she now knows what it is like to be "alive?'  Again, contridicting main themes.

Control basically makes shepard out to be a hypocrit by accepting the Illusive Man's solution (Which you opposed all throughout ME2/ME3)

Destroy leads to the destruction of all geth/EDI, but the reapers are destroyed.  Shepard lives? Buried in rubble with mortal wounds, unlikely.  (Acceptable ending)

I can now walk away from this franchise knowing that: I Commander Shepard did everything I could to stop
the reapers.  Inside & outside of the game.  I wrote Bioware a detailed letter offering suggestions, took part in the retake movement, submitted 3 surveys, took part in the on/off movement & all of it was ignored.  That said, I am glad Bioware added the rejection ending, because I reject Biowares (The catalysts) solutions & while my efforts were not successful I did everything I could as both a hero & a fan.

Modifié par Benny8484, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:12 .

[LiarasShield]

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...
Bull**** I'm not playing god cause i allow my forces to fight to the end the way they would want to instead of forcing a decision without their consent or guidance and making a decision that they wouldn't agree to or would not be happy about

When holding the lives of trillions in your hands you cant think "damn they might be a bit upset by this decision, ill just tell them it didnt work and lets all die together to avoid an incident".

The same could be about shepard picking synthesis altering everyones dna and destroying people who they are or playing with power and playing god who knows if the reapers may break from shepards control someday or that shepard will eventually go rouge it is too much of a threat to consider and since the geth are to me just as equally as important because they do have a existence and they are now sentient life destroying them would still be as terrible

So now dieing for freedom and letting the next generation find a better solution is still worth it

[Khajiit Jzargo]

IscrewTali wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Off-topic...But I noticed something

The same people who are saying a conventional victory against the Reapers should be possible are also saying seizing Control of the Reapers is like playing God. So you can't be God, but you can defeat him?

The double-standards have to stop if you guys want me to take your arguments seriously.

Actually yeah if we spent more time making canies and thanix cannons instead making a unknown potentially reaper device that we have no true idea of what it would do at the time but we know it failed before to try to use against the reapers yeah I do think we could beat them and it has nothing to do with double standards

What if this, what if that. the FACT is the galaxy doesnt have the strength to match the Reapers. That is the reason you were making the "unknown potentially reaper device that we have no true idea of what it would do". During the entire game he is forced to make sacrifices for the greater good, and when it comes down to the final decision he backs out and says "we'd rather go down fighting, whiping out all galactic civilization, than sacrificing a bunch of AI's that gained conciousness a week ago by doing something crazy that may or may not deliver us victory."

For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

[Reorte]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

By that stage Shepard knows that if they lose this fight they've lost. Even if you ignore the guy overseeing the Crucible you can't ignore the fact that only 40% of Hammer called in, and Joker telling you they're taking heavy losses, and the losing fight seen around the Citadel, and the overwhelming Reaper forces in every system.

Knowingly doing nothing is just as bad as killing everyone.

Exactly. If you're got reason to think that carrying on the fight will get fewer people killed than Destroy then you're justified in making the decision, even if it turns out to be wrong. There isn't much reason to think that that's the case though.

[N-Seven]

Anyone recall how the Quarians and Geth obtained peace?

Shepard: 'The Geth are about to return to full strength. If you keep on attacking, they'll wipe you out.' And, 'The Geth don't want to fight you. If you can believe that for just one minute, this war will be over.'

Take your own advice, Shepard. If you can believe for just one minute that the Catalyst might be telling the truth, this war is over.

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

Yes, it is wrong accepting a lot of collateral damage that you know is unavoidable. It's even more wrong to deliberately raise that collateral damage to 100% though.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Benny8484 wrote...

Reject was the only ending that truly upheld the views & morals of commander Shepard.  Even though it was added to spite fans for rejecting their endings it is by far the best. 

Synthesis gives the reapers what they have wanted all along - ascension.  Also wasn't one of the main themes in ME2 "Does this unit have a soul" also, doesn't EDI go on to make remarks in ME2 about how she now knows what it is like to be "alive?'  Again, contridicting main themes.

Control basically makes shepard out to be a hypocrit by accepting the Illusive Man's solution (Which you opposed all throughout ME2/ME3)

Destroy leads to the destruction of all geth/EDI, but the reapers are destroyed.  Shepard lives? Buried in rubble with mortal wounds, unlikely.  (Acceptable ending)

I can now walk away from this franchise knowing that: I Commander Shepard did everything I could to stop
the reapers.  Inside & outside of the game.  I wrote Bioware a detailed letter offering suggestions, took part in the retake movement, submitted 3 surveys, took part in the on/off movement & all of it was ignored.  That said, I am glad Bioware added the rejection ending, because I reject Biowares (The catalysts) solutions & while my
efforts were not successful I did everything I could as both a hero & a fan.

Amen.

[Eire Icon]

LiarasShield wrote...

Bull**** I'm not playing god cause i allow my forces to fight to the end the way they would want to instead of forcing a decision without their consent or guidance and making a decision that they wouldn't agree to or would not be happy about

How do you know they would want to fight to the end as you describe ? You want to fight until the end and you are forcing that decision on the rest of the galaxy

You were given an order by the commander of those forces (One of your commanding officers) to activate the crucible and you disobeyed that order.

The order wasn't to "Activate the crucible providing its on your terms"

The truth of the matter is you have absolutely no idea what their consensus or wishes would be.

Do people realise that under the law, if you fail to act to prevent an action that will knowingly result in a persons death you are then responsible for that death yourself as if you had taken that life directly yourself.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

Yes, it is wrong accepting a lot of collateral damage that you know is unavoidable. It's even more wrong to deliberately raise that collateral damage to 100% though.

I didn't deliberately do anything, I refuse and we ended up losing, so be it, Its not genocide though we just loss, you willingly shoot a tube knowing all Geth would die, I died defending not mine, but the galaxy's beliefs, but you wanna commit genocide just because it ensures you win? right...

[Memnon]

Sauruz wrote...

Great. Now people aren't metagaming and instead applying headcanon.
We never actually see anyone dying. In fact, the Asari-looking star gazer could even suggest that there are some survivors of the current cycle who made it to the next cycle (just like Javik survived into the next cycle). Or people fled to another galaxy.
You're making the Reject ending out to be much more grim and definite than it actually is. There is hope, more than in any of the other endings.

Exactly - we're being told that we have to use our imaginations to fill in the blanks for everything except Reject.

[memorysquid]

Benny8484 wrote...

Reject was the only ending that truly upheld the views & morals of commander Shepard.  Even though it was added to spite fans for rejecting their endings it is by far the best. 

Shepard blew up a solar system to avoid the obvious to the in game characters consequence of the reject ending killing 300K+ Batarians in the process.  Perhaps you mean reject is the only ending upholding YOUR Shepard's views and morals.  In which case, cool.  Although your views and morals seem a little defeatist and paralyzation in the face of tough dilemmas isn't really a good idea.

[LiarasShield]

Eire Icon wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Bull**** I'm not playing god cause i allow my forces to fight to the end the way they would want to instead of forcing a decision without their consent or guidance and making a decision that they wouldn't agree to or would not be happy about

How do you know they would want to fight to the end as you describe ? You want to fight until the end and you are forcing that decision on the rest of the galaxy

You were given an order by the commander of those forces (One of your commanding officers) to activate the crucible and you disobeyed that order.

The order wasn't to "Activate the crucible providing its on your terms"

The truth of the matter is you have absolutely no idea what their consensus or wishes would be.

Do people realise that under the law, if you fail to act to prevent an action that will knowingly result in a persons death you are then responsible for that death yourself as if you had taken that life directly yourself.

Then all decisions are horrible evil then because without the other races guidance or permission they are all terrible again I'd rather take my chances and go down swinging having faith in my forces or the next generation to find a better solution then doing all of these terrible things but it seems like you find it acceptable

[memorysquid]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I didn't deliberately do anything, I refuse and we ended up losing, so be it, Its not genocide though we just loss, you willingly shoot a tube knowing all Geth would die, I died defending not mine, but the galaxy's beliefs, but you wanna commit genocide just because it ensures you win? right...

As Javik would say: hold your beliefs in one hand and the ashes of a trillion lives lost to the Reapers in the other and see which weighs more.

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

Yes, it is wrong accepting a lot of collateral damage that you know is unavoidable. It's even more wrong to deliberately raise that collateral damage to 100% though.

I didn't deliberately do anything, I refuse and we ended up losing, so be it, Its not genocide though we just loss, you willingly shoot a tube knowing all Geth would die, I died defending not mine, but the galaxy's beliefs, but you wanna commit genocide just because it ensures you win? right...

I want to accept that collateral damage because everything I know tells me that not doing so allows an even greater evil to take place.

[Reorte]

memorysquid wrote...

Shepard blew up a solar system to avoid the obvious to the in game characters consequence of the reject ending killing 300K+ Batarians in the process.  Perhaps you mean reject is the only ending upholding YOUR Shepard's views and morals.  In which case, cool.  Although your views and morals seem a little defeatist and paralyzation in the face of tough dilemmas isn't really a good idea.

Of course the same Shepard would be dead already because he'd have let the clock run down in Arrival rather than activate the Project.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Eire Icon wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

Bull**** I'm not playing god cause i allow my forces to fight to the end the way they would want to instead of forcing a decision without their consent or guidance and making a decision that they wouldn't agree to or would not be happy about

How do you know they would want to fight to the end as you describe ? You want to fight until the end and you are forcing that decision on the rest of the galaxy

You were given an order by the commander of those forces (One of your commanding officers) to activate the crucible and you disobeyed that order.

The order wasn't to "Activate the crucible providing its on your terms"

The truth of the matter is you have absolutely no idea what their consensus or wishes would be.

Do people realise that under the law, if you fail to act to prevent an action that will knowingly result in a persons death you are then responsible for that death yourself as if you had taken that life directly yourself.

So your saying when America rebelled against the British, if they British hadn't surrendered and fought to the end it would be genocide because they wanted to defend your belief, what sort of logic do you hold?

[Eire Icon]

LiarasShield wrote...

I'm not going to kill the geth or the quarians
 
I'm not going to make everyone be part machine or erase who they are just to coperate with the reapers
 
I'm not going to play with power that I was never ment to have
 

Right lets make this as simple as possible

take your first point

You are not going to pick destroy because you do not want to kill the Geth - Am I correct ?

Ok so you choose Reject

Now please explain to me what is going to happen the Geth if the cycle continues?