1027 réponses à ce sujet

[Galbrant]

DocJill wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Krogan warlord: Hand over the Asari.
Shepard: We don't have time to deal with this idiot. Charge!
Thorian: The Old Growth will listen no more.
Shepard: I don't argue with plants. Give me what I want, now.
Sovereign: You will die because we demand it.
Shepard: Machines can be broken.
Saren: Join us.
Shepard: You're a coward. You join me!
*Saren shoots himself*
Tali: Now you're working for Cerberus.
Shepard: They're working for me.
Harbinger: If I have to tear you apart, Shepard, I will.
*Shepard shoots the possesed collector to death*
TIM: The Collector base can advance humanity!
Shepard: I will stop the Reapers and I won't kill the soul of our species to do it.
TIM: We can control the Reapers!
Shepard: You're crazy.
TIM: Your time has passed.
Shepard: Go to hell.
Reaper: We are your salvation. It is inevitable.
Shepard: Tell your friend we're coming for them. *kills Reaper* Never mind. I'll tell them myself.
Kai Leng: You're slow.
Shepard: No gunship this time, you son of a ****. *Kills Kai Leng*
TIM: Shepard. You have to understand. We can control them. Join me!
Shepard: You're indoctrinated. But it's not too late. You join me!
*TIM kills himself*
Space kid: blahblahblah Shepard.
Shepard: I...don't know.
Space kid: Shoot that pipe, grab those bars or jump into that beam.
Shepard: Okay.

Love. This.

I concur.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

memorysquid wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I didn't deliberately do anything, I refuse and we ended up losing, so be it, Its not genocide though we just loss, you willingly shoot a tube knowing all Geth would die, I died defending not mine, but the galaxy's beliefs, but you wanna commit genocide just because it ensures you win? right...

As Javik would say: hold your beliefs in one hand and the ashes of a trillion lives lost to the Reapers in the other and see which weighs more.

Not mine, the galaxy's.

[LiarasShield]

I'll say this till I turn old and brittle I'm not sacrificng anybody I'm not playing with with power that is beyond me or never ment to be mine and I'm not forcing everyone to be part machine take it or leave but fighting and dieing for freedom will always be my best choice espically if I know the next generation can find a better solution

[Memnon]

Eire Icon wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

I'm not going to kill the geth or the quarians
 
I'm not going to make everyone be part machine or erase who they are just to coperate with the reapers
 
I'm not going to play with power that I was never ment to have
 

Right lets make this as simple as possible

take your first point

You are not going to pick destroy because you do not want to kill the Geth - Am I correct ?

Ok so you choose Reject

Now please explain to me what is going to happen the Geth if the cycle continues?

Reapers kill them instead of Shepard - and they go down fighting

[Jadebaby]

Didn't read the OP, got enough info from the title. Been saying this a while.

[v TricKy v]

Sauruz wrote...

Great. Now people aren't metagaming and instead applying headcanon.
We never actually see anyone dying. In fact, the Asari-looking star gazer could even suggest that there are some survivors of the current cycle who made it to the next cycle (just like Javik survived into the next cycle). Or people fled to another galaxy.
You're making the Reject ending out to be much more grim and definite than it actually is. There is hope, more than in any of the other endings.

Just like a said in another thread a lot people think refuse=everyone dead even though it gets stated nowhere. There is even a hint in the stargazer scene but people just gloss over it.
There are SPECULATING and dont even notice it

[Joe Del Toro]

I Refused because I don't buy into having an A, B or C choice to end a journey like that.

Meta-gaming, headcanon, whining, whatever you want to call that, by Refusing I am staying within the lore and the mythos of the series. That's why I won't choose.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

Yes, it is wrong accepting a lot of collateral damage that you know is unavoidable. It's even more wrong to deliberately raise that collateral damage to 100% though.

I didn't deliberately do anything, I refuse and we ended up losing, so be it, Its not genocide though we just loss, you willingly shoot a tube knowing all Geth would die, I died defending not mine, but the galaxy's beliefs, but you wanna commit genocide just because it ensures you win? right...

I want to accept that collateral damage because everything I know tells me that not doing so allows an even greater evil to take place.

Its not a greater evil, is what we as an united galaxy agreed to do, no one agreed to be sacrificed/sold. If you wanna say its evil, then your calling the whole galaxy evil.

[Benny8484]

Galbrant wrote...

DocJill wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Krogan warlord: Hand over the Asari.
Shepard: We don't have time to deal with this idiot. Charge!
Thorian: The Old Growth will listen no more.
Shepard: I don't argue with plants. Give me what I want, now.
Sovereign: You will die because we demand it.
Shepard: Machines can be broken.
Saren: Join us.
Shepard: You're a coward. You join me!
*Saren shoots himself*
Tali: Now you're working for Cerberus.
Shepard: They're working for me.
Harbinger: If I have to tear you apart, Shepard, I will.
*Shepard shoots the possesed collector to death*
TIM: The Collector base can advance humanity!
Shepard: I will stop the Reapers and I won't kill the soul of our species to do it.
TIM: We can control the Reapers!
Shepard: You're crazy.
TIM: Your time has passed.
Shepard: Go to hell.
Reaper: We are your salvation. It is inevitable.
Shepard: Tell your friend we're coming for them. *kills Reaper* Never mind. I'll tell them myself.
Kai Leng: You're slow.
Shepard: No gunship this time, you son of a ****. *Kills Kai Leng*
TIM: Shepard. You have to understand. We can control them. Join me!
Shepard: You're indoctrinated. But it's not too late. You join me!
*TIM kills himself*
Space kid: blahblahblah Shepard.
Shepard: I...don't know.
Space kid: Shoot that pipe, grab those bars or jump into that beam.
Shepard: Okay.

Love. This.

I concur.

Love this post, simply amazing

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I didn't deliberately do anything, I refuse and we ended up losing, so be it, Its not genocide though we just loss, you willingly shoot a tube knowing all Geth would die, I died defending not mine, but the galaxy's beliefs, but you wanna commit genocide just because it ensures you win? right...

As Javik would say: hold your beliefs in one hand and the ashes of a trillion lives lost to the Reapers in the other and see which weighs more.

Not mine, the galaxy's.

That would be the galaxy who, I think it's fair to say, think that it's better to accept some losses in order to remove a threat to them all? After all, most people don't seem to agree with your position here. Do you think that the galaxy at large would be any different? If we were being attacked right now by an enemy who wanted to kill us all would you say "No!" to a proposal for a better chance to win if it would kill you? I might say no but would have to accept that it would be cowardice.

Modifié par Reorte, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:23 .

[Clayless]

Stornskar wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

I'm not going to kill the geth or the quarians
 
I'm not going to make everyone be part machine or erase who they are just to coperate with the reapers
 
I'm not going to play with power that I was never ment to have
 

Right lets make this as simple as possible

take your first point

You are not going to pick destroy because you do not want to kill the Geth - Am I correct ?

Ok so you choose Reject

Now please explain to me what is going to happen the Geth if the cycle continues?

Reapers kill them instead of Shepard - and they go down fighting

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Reorte wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Shepard blew up a solar system to avoid the obvious to the in game characters consequence of the reject ending killing 300K+ Batarians in the process.  Perhaps you mean reject is the only ending upholding YOUR Shepard's views and morals.  In which case, cool.  Although your views and morals seem a little defeatist and paralyzation in the face of tough dilemmas isn't really a good idea.

Of course the same Shepard would be dead already because he'd have let the clock run down in Arrival rather than activate the Project.

Lets see
300,000 batarians does not equal 1.5 billion geth (every geth)
It wasn't an united effort to destroy the reapers, the circumstances were completely different, stop using analogies that don't match up to what were talking about.

[IscrewTali]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
For one thing how do you the Catalyst is telling the truth, for another Its seems some of this cycle survived onto the next, so they didn't all die, and finally the crucible was build to wipe out the Reapers, not to commit genocide and then defeat the reapers, as Padok Wiks said, Commiting Genocide to stop a genocide is wrong.

You're saying the Stargazer at the end of Reject was an asari or something? thats just pure bull**** and grasping at straws. Its just an alien form. Besides the legs are horse-like, rather than human/asari. Theres no evidence of survivors to the next cycle other than Liara's "beacons", just like Protheans.
About Catalyst telling the truth: Its an AI driven by the purpose of maintaining balance in the galaxy. The Crucible changed it's coding, allowing it to reach new solutions. It has no control over the use of the Crucible, it merely acts as a trigger mechanism to it and as a guide on how to use it. If it was lying, it couldve just said "shoot the pipe and you destroy the universe"(who would want to do THAT), instead he said it destroys the Reapers and synthetics. Sounds logical enough to me. The Geth are unfortunate casualties of war, just as there has allways been and allways will be. A man may love a dog like his child, but would never put it's life ahead of his own. Those that do are nutcases.

[Eire Icon]

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Do people realise that under the law, if you fail to act to prevent an action that will knowingly result in a persons death you are then responsible for that death yourself as if you had taken that life directly yourself.

[/quote]So your saying when America rebelled against the British, if they British hadn't surrendered and fought to the end it would be genocide because they wanted to defend your belief, what sort of logic do you hold?
[/quote]

If you mean that if America accomplished mass killings of an entire nation/race (In this case Britan),  then yes it would be genocide by definition - whats your point ???

Do you know what genocide means ?

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

Eire Icon wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

I'm not going to kill the geth or the quarians
 
I'm not going to make everyone be part machine or erase who they are just to coperate with the reapers
 
I'm not going to play with power that I was never ment to have
 

Right lets make this as simple as possible

take your first point

You are not going to pick destroy because you do not want to kill the Geth - Am I correct ?

Ok so you choose Reject

Now please explain to me what is going to happen the Geth if the cycle continues?

Reapers kill them instead of Shepard - and they go down fighting

They go down fighting and their past, and their future, is forever lost and they are turned into a Reaper.

Is submission not preferable to extinction? Again, I can see another person who i can guess their answer pretty easily.

[Reorte]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Reorte wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Shepard blew up a solar system to avoid the obvious to the in game characters consequence of the reject ending killing 300K+ Batarians in the process.  Perhaps you mean reject is the only ending upholding YOUR Shepard's views and morals.  In which case, cool.  Although your views and morals seem a little defeatist and paralyzation in the face of tough dilemmas isn't really a good idea.

Of course the same Shepard would be dead already because he'd have let the clock run down in Arrival rather than activate the Project.

Lets see
300,000 batarians does not equal 1.5 billion geth (every geth)
It wasn't an united effort to destroy the reapers, the circumstances were completely different, stop using analogies that don't match up to what were talking about.

Ah, so it's simply a numbers game. Killing 300000 to save trillions is fine but killing 1.5 billion is not.

[jsadalia]

BD Manchild wrote...

Here's a part of an article on Forbes that I feel is worth looking at, giving what I feel are perfectly legit reasons why Shepard might not use the Crucible (full article here: www.forbes.com/sites/danielnyegriffiths/2012/06/28/real-hero-of-mass-effect/):

However, the Crucible was rushed, built under terrible conditions by
people who barely understood what they were building. So, none of the
options are ideal. Control seems far too close to indoctrination for
comfort, and even the Catalyst seems cagey about whether Shepard will be
able to control the Reapers, although it is considerably more confident
in the Extended Cut. Synthesis is a huge change to the basis of all
life in the galaxy. Destruction will treat billions of Geth as an
acceptable cost to preserve the rest of the galaxy – and it would be
blood (well, oil) on Shepard’s hands, and staining the foundations of
post-Reaper galactic civilization. And, of course, Shepard has no reason
to believe the Catalyst. This could all be a trick.
By refusing to use the Crucible, Shepard is taking a moral stance –
saying that she is willing to play the long game, if that’s what it
takes to defeat the Reapers. She is not prepared to write off an entire
sentient race as an acceptable cost. She is, in that sense, refusing to
think like a Reaper – with their genocidal utilitarianism – or to accept
the Reapers’ tools as the only way to deal with them.

Without Liara T’Soni’s knowledge, making that choice would be insane.
Without Liara T’Soni’s perspective, Shepard would not be able to
consider it. But she has both. So, the rejection ending is the ending
where Shepard stays true to her principles, refuses to compromise and
places her trust in her current cycle not to want victory at any cost, and the cycles to come to defeat the Reapers without having to compromise.

Shepard's "moral stance" here is still insane.  Liara's data is still out there regardless of what Shepard chooses, so Rejection gains nothing.  Instead of sacrificing billions of geth (are there billions of geth?) for the possible survival of the other current advanced societies, Shepard knowingly sacrifices trillions--all so that in a future cycle other peoples can build the Crucible and make the exact same decision that Shepard now refuses!  Instead  of "writing off an entire sentient race as an acceptable cost," Shepard writes of ALL advanced races as an acceptable cost. 

It's insane.

Modifié par jsadalia, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:33 .

[memorysquid]

Eire Icon wrote...

savionen wrote...

Hindsight is 20/20 on this. That's whay I'm saying. You thought it would happen, it did happen, so it's reinforced your beliefs. If Reject was an original option it may have lead somewhere completely different. It was tacked on to the Extended Cut after-the-fact that we know the writers wanted the Crucible to be the only way. I've carved my own path entirely in ME1 and ME2, rejected other people's ideas and still had flawless victories, no deaths. Reject would have been the proper option.


Shepard is constantly told that people don't believe him, that what he's doing is impossible, that he'll fail in ME1 and ME2, how is ME3 any different? Shepard also doesn't explicitly say "Okay I'm going to reject the Catalyst, and I'm going to die" Shepard says "If I die, then I'll die free." and then it cuts to black.  This is also AFTER the fact that you picked Reject.

Hindsight doesn't apply here

Shepard is constantly told that the reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. At no point does Shepard reject or question this notion. At no point does the player have the option to do so.

At the time that Shepard is presented with the options, there is nothing to suggest any of that has changed. He has orders in hand from his superiors to activate the crucible, orders he has never questioned.

If he chooses against selecting a new solution he is allowing the cycle to continue, and thus dooming the galaxy. This is abundently obvious to the player.

It's not abundantly obvious to the players who don't like the endings.  They allow their prejudice to let them ignore little things like the facts you mention above, so they can say things like "Rejection is the only non-metagaming choice" and then reinforce that belief in the community of people who hated the endings with a bunch of posts stating basically "I agree." 

This is a great lesson in human bias and perception.  Just imagine, if something helpfully narrated and easily referenced like this game happens to be, is the object of such contention - what hope is there for complex issues like ethics and politics in a not so helpfully narrated reality? 

[The Angry One]

Galbrant wrote...

DocJill wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Krogan warlord: Hand over the Asari.
Shepard: We don't have time to deal with this idiot. Charge!
Thorian: The Old Growth will listen no more.
Shepard: I don't argue with plants. Give me what I want, now.
Sovereign: You will die because we demand it.
Shepard: Machines can be broken.
Saren: Join us.
Shepard: You're a coward. You join me!
*Saren shoots himself*
Tali: Now you're working for Cerberus.
Shepard: They're working for me.
Harbinger: If I have to tear you apart, Shepard, I will.
*Shepard shoots the possesed collector to death*
TIM: The Collector base can advance humanity!
Shepard: I will stop the Reapers and I won't kill the soul of our species to do it.
TIM: We can control the Reapers!
Shepard: You're crazy.
TIM: Your time has passed.
Shepard: Go to hell.
Reaper: We are your salvation. It is inevitable.
Shepard: Tell your friend we're coming for them. *kills Reaper* Never mind. I'll tell them myself.
Kai Leng: You're slow.
Shepard: No gunship this time, you son of a ****. *Kills Kai Leng*
TIM: Shepard. You have to understand. We can control them. Join me!
Shepard: You're indoctrinated. But it's not too late. You join me!
*TIM kills himself*
Space kid: blahblahblah Shepard.
Shepard: I...don't know.
Space kid: Shoot that pipe, grab those bars or jump into that beam.
Shepard: Okay.

Love. This.

I concur.

+1

[Khajiit Jzargo]

[quote]Eire Icon wrote...

[quote]Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Do people realise that under the law, if you fail to act to prevent an action that will knowingly result in a persons death you are then responsible for that death yourself as if you had taken that life directly yourself.

[/quote]So your saying when America rebelled against the British, if they British hadn't surrendered and fought to the end it would be genocide because they wanted to defend your belief, what sort of logic do you hold?
[/quote]

If you mean that if America accomplished mass killings of an entire nation/race (In this case Britan),  then yes it would be genocide by definition - whats your point ???

Do you know what genocide means ?
[/quote]I'm not talking in americas behalf, I'm talking in britains behalf. If britan hadn't surrender and fough to the end, would their leaders be responsible for genocide? I don't think so America would.

[LiarasShield]

Guess dieing for freedom and holding on to ones believes is terrible thing then submitting to a being you never seen before to play god with the reapers to force everyone into half machines and possiabily destroying who they are as people


Killing another race wether sentient machines or the quarians is acceptable to alot of you


I'm sorry it isn't for me

[M Hedonist]

Eire Icon wrote...

Do people realise that under the law, if you fail to act to prevent an action that will knowingly result in a persons death you are then responsible for that death yourself as if you had taken that life directly yourself.

Real life laws are for real life situations. They don't account for things that can only happen in speculative fiction. The whole Reapers-Catalyst-Crucible-situation is ridiculously convoluted. The person who's commiting the murder is the same person who offers you to do something amoral to save the victim. And the thing you have to do to stop the murder is one of the following of your choice: a) murder, becoming a dictator and single-handedly ruling over the whole galaxy, c) changing the nature of life itself.
If anything you can only compare this to other fictional situations. I like to compare it to Return of the Jedi.

[Baronesa]

Benny8484 wrote...

Galbrant wrote...

DocJill wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Krogan warlord: Hand over the Asari.
Shepard: We don't have time to deal with this idiot. Charge!
Thorian: The Old Growth will listen no more.
Shepard: I don't argue with plants. Give me what I want, now.
Sovereign: You will die because we demand it.
Shepard: Machines can be broken.
Saren: Join us.
Shepard: You're a coward. You join me!
*Saren shoots himself*
Tali: Now you're working for Cerberus.
Shepard: They're working for me.
Harbinger: If I have to tear you apart, Shepard, I will.
*Shepard shoots the possesed collector to death*
TIM: The Collector base can advance humanity!
Shepard: I will stop the Reapers and I won't kill the soul of our species to do it.
TIM: We can control the Reapers!
Shepard: You're crazy.
TIM: Your time has passed.
Shepard: Go to hell.
Reaper: We are your salvation. It is inevitable.
Shepard: Tell your friend we're coming for them. *kills Reaper* Never mind. I'll tell them myself.
Kai Leng: You're slow.
Shepard: No gunship this time, you son of a ****. *Kills Kai Leng*
TIM: Shepard. You have to understand. We can control them. Join me!
Shepard: You're indoctrinated. But it's not too late. You join me!
*TIM kills himself*
Space kid: blahblahblah Shepard.
Shepard: I...don't know.
Space kid: Shoot that pipe, grab those bars or jump into that beam.
Shepard: Okay.

Love. This.

I concur.

Love this post, simply amazing

THIS!

Accepting Casper's options break the theme presented on the previous games!

[savionen]

Galbrant wrote...

Krogan warlord: Hand over the Asari.
Shepard: We don't have time to deal with this idiot. Charge!
Thorian: The Old Growth will listen no more.
Shepard: I don't argue with plants. Give me what I want, now.
Sovereign: You will die because we demand it.
Shepard: Machines can be broken.
Saren: Join us.
Shepard: You're a coward. You join me!
*Saren shoots himself*
Tali: Now you're working for Cerberus.
Shepard: They're working for me.
Harbinger: If I have to tear you apart, Shepard, I will.
*Shepard shoots the possesed collector to death*
TIM: The Collector base can advance humanity!
Shepard: I will stop the Reapers and I won't kill the soul of our species to do it.
TIM: We can control the Reapers!
Shepard: You're crazy.
TIM: Your time has passed.
Shepard: Go to hell.
Reaper: We are your salvation. It is inevitable.
Shepard: Tell your friend we're coming for them. *kills Reaper* Never mind. I'll tell them myself.
Kai Leng: You're slow.
Shepard: No gunship this time, you son of a ****. *Kills Kai Leng*
TIM: Shepard. You have to understand. We can control them. Join me!
Shepard: You're indoctrinated. But it's not too late. You join me!
*TIM kills himself*
Space kid: blahblahblah Shepard.
Shepard: I...don't know.
Space kid: Shoot that pipe, grab those bars or jump into that beam.
Shepard: Okay.

YES.

All in all the Reject ending is weak, but it's because there's not much to it, not the idea itself. People would find it a lot more acceptable if EMS actually affected it and it ranged from "The Reapers immediately killed you, you lost, the cycle continues, nobody found Liara's beacon" to "A war of attrition that lasted a millenia that we eventually won."

Modifié par savionen, 02 juillet 2012 - 04:30 .

[wh00ley 06]

The Angry One wrote...

Galbrant wrote...

DocJill wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Krogan warlord: Hand over the Asari.
Shepard: We don't have time to deal with this idiot. Charge!
Thorian: The Old Growth will listen no more.
Shepard: I don't argue with plants. Give me what I want, now.
Sovereign: You will die because we demand it.
Shepard: Machines can be broken.
Saren: Join us.
Shepard: You're a coward. You join me!
*Saren shoots himself*
Tali: Now you're working for Cerberus.
Shepard: They're working for me.
Harbinger: If I have to tear you apart, Shepard, I will.
*Shepard shoots the possesed collector to death*
TIM: The Collector base can advance humanity!
Shepard: I will stop the Reapers and I won't kill the soul of our species to do it.
TIM: We can control the Reapers!
Shepard: You're crazy.
TIM: Your time has passed.
Shepard: Go to hell.
Reaper: We are your salvation. It is inevitable.
Shepard: Tell your friend we're coming for them. *kills Reaper* Never mind. I'll tell them myself.
Kai Leng: You're slow.
Shepard: No gunship this time, you son of a ****. *Kills Kai Leng*
TIM: Shepard. You have to understand. We can control them. Join me!
Shepard: You're indoctrinated. But it's not too late. You join me!
*TIM kills himself*
Space kid: blahblahblah Shepard.
Shepard: I...don't know.
Space kid: Shoot that pipe, grab those bars or jump into that beam.
Shepard: Okay.

Love. This.

I concur.

+1

YES